IL IL - Dermot Kelly, 16, Oglesby, Jan 1972

[Simply Caustic]

Possible match?

http://z10.invisionfree.com/usedtobedoe/index.php?showtopic=18486&st=0&

 

[Simply Caustic]

Okay soooooo in my opinion, hie doe page was intentionally taken down pending verification of the remains found in Washington...shot with a 22 caliber...suicide. I believe the suicide took place in 75 in Washington, interesting at least since it was theorized in the scanned-in article from the Trib that he would head West...and took a rifle with him..thoughts?

http://s10.invisionfree.com/usedtobedoe/ar/t52062.htm

 

[Still_Seek_Answers]

The first article says he was between 17-22, the article posted by law enforcement says 20-22. Looking at the composite drawings, I don't see it, then again what do I know? With the doe network down there is a reason, they don't usually pull them for just comparisons...but that goes back to the what do I know? I wish someone would post something, so we would know....

 

[Satch]

The first article says he was between 17-22, the article posted by law enforcement says 20-22. Looking at the composite drawings, I don't see it, then again what do I know? With the doe network down there is a reason, they don't usually pull them for just comparisons...but that goes back to the what do I know? I wish someone would post something, so we would know....

I agree,

I don't see ANY connection between this John Doe and Dermot, other than Dermot having a rifle with him when he left home. I would like to find out from the Doe Network people why Dermot's page was taken down? I agree with Still Seek Answers that we should find the reason, or any updates.

This is very important to us especially since tomorrow, Monday January, 30, 2012 marks the 40th anniversary of Dermot's disappearance. At this point, because the case is so old, I would even like to have some clues as to whether or not the case is open or could be re-opened for investigation? Dermot's case has always haunted me. Closure can often come about from small clues. Thanks for any help in advance.

Satch

 

[Cubby]

I often see typo's which cause case files to occur at DoeNet. I've never seen them remove a MP's case file while a person is missing. DoeNet did an upgrade not too long ago and it is likely Dermot's case file was inadvertently lost during the upgrade.

Dermot's case file is still with Charley Project.

Also, with recent events with Cook County trying to ID the remaining unidentified Gacy victims, two families who believed their family member may have been a Gacy victim have learned their family member was alive and well and voluntarily missing. It's possible that is the case with Dermot as well.

I don't see the resemblence between Dermot and the male UID found in Washington state. Noses are different. The UID's looks crooked, possibly broken at one time. I don't see that in Dermot's photo. Also, the UID's eyebrow and brow bone shape are very different than Dermot's. UID's brow bone is much more curved. I don't see that curve in Dermot.

 

[SheWhoMustNotBeNamed]

Boy Interrupted

What happened to Dermot F. Kelly?

The 16-year-old Oglesby boy hasn't been seen since Sunday, Jan. 30, 1972.

At 1:15 p.m. that bitterly cold day, Dermot left his home on Point Lookout, a wooded neighborhood near the south bank of the Vermilion River. The boy was clad in a black-and-white jacket and blue-jeans. An Accutron watch was strapped to his wrist and a .22-caliber rifle was in his hands, as he told his parents he was going to go target shooting. Dermot headed east along the river.

[snip]

The Center for Missing and Exploited Children was established in 1984. On Feb. 9, 1985, Kevin Kelly contacted the Center with information about his son. The Agency continues to list Dermot as missing. In fact, it is one of the Agency's oldest cases.

Melinda Stevens, Director of the Center's Missing Children Division, said there have been leads over the years that Dermot is dead, including a report a body was found, but which could not be identified.

"We keep hope here," Stevens pointed out.

Stevens said her agency did not know Dermot's jacket, boots and rifle were found soon after he disappeared, until informed by The Times.

More: http://mywebtimes.com/archives/ottawa/display.php?id=449448

 

[Cubby]

From the article SheWho posted above:

At 2 p.m. Monday, Dermot's jacket and boots were found on an icy bank of the Vermilion where that river fed into the Illinois River. A set of bare foot prints in the snow led from the bank 20 feet out onto the partially frozen river. There were no return prints. An impression of a rifle was also present in the snow.


The above is very similiar to what the detective handling Dermot's case told me sometime ago when I spoke with him regarding the possibility Dermot might be one of the unidentified Gacy victims. I wasn't aware those foot prints were from bare feet until I read the article.

Also from the article SheWho' posted above:

Dermot was a junior at the then all boys St. Bede Academy between Peru and Spring Valley. He was in class the Friday before, but had missed several weeks in the fall, while he was receiving medical treatment in the Chicago area, the school's head said at the time.

I wonder if Dermot was being treated for mental health issues while in Chicago. Especially because if he had a different type of illness perhaps that would have been included in the article.


Very sad details in this MSM article. I do also wonder why Dermots remains would not have been found in 40 years if he fell into the river. I don't know enough about this particular river to say either way.


I do pray the answers to Dermots disappearance are found one day and that where ever he is he is at peace.

 

[Satch]

From the article SheWho posted above:

At 2 p.m. Monday, Dermot's jacket and boots were found on an icy bank of the Vermilion where that river fed into the Illinois River. A set of bare foot prints in the snow led from the bank 20 feet out onto the partially frozen river. There were no return prints. An impression of a rifle was also present in the snow.


The above is very similiar to what the detective handling Dermot's case told me sometime ago when I spoke with him regarding the possibility Dermot might be one of the unidentified Gacy victims. I wasn't aware those foot prints were from bare feet until I read the article.

Also from the article SheWho' posted above:

Dermot was a junior at the then all boys St. Bede Academy between Peru and Spring Valley. He was in class the Friday before, but had missed several weeks in the fall, while he was receiving medical treatment in the Chicago area, the school's head said at the time.

I wonder if Dermot was being treated for mental health issues while in Chicago. Especially because if he had a different type of illness perhaps that would have been included in the article.


Very sad details in this MSM article. I do also wonder why Dermots remains would not have been found in 40 years if he fell into the river. I don't know enough about this particular river to say either way.


I do pray the answers to Dermots disappearance are found one day and that where ever he is he is at peace.

Cubby,

The most painful and powerful information is in that URL link. It sure sounds like based on what evidence there is that Dermot drowned in that river. Tragically the jacket, boots, AND rifle, all found within a day after he disappeared, along with him being treated for a medical condition are devastating and heartbreaking. Sadly, we may have found the "unpleasantness" of this case with this new article. This is also the most detailed information that I have ever read about the case.

I did not know about the items found at the river a day after he had vanished. Painful closure may have just been released with the release of the article. If Dermot did in fact drown, I think it is possible that the water and the frigid-like temperatures that day and evening, along with subsequent days, would have washed away all traces of his remains.

Interesting how the deceased parents choose different views about Dermot in their obituaries, with his father declaring him legally dead, and his mother declaring him as a surviver. I remember reading from one of the posters, who claimed that Dermot was her mother's younger brother that "it was a messy time in the family." It is beyond comprehension how Dermot's disappearance must of torn the family apart even worse.

I also want to thank the WS community for their support in this case, and in posting the new information found in the article.

Regards,

Satch

 

[Cubby]

I too didn't know his boots and coat were found. When I spoke to the detective sometime ago all he said were footprints leading to the river were found but there were none leading back.

It makes me wonder about hypothermia. It was bitterly cold the day Dermot disappeared. One of the things I have read about the effects of hypothermia is the person experiencing it feels overheated and often remove clothing. This may have been the case with Dermot if he wasn't dressed properly for the weather. And at 16 that wouldn't surprise me. I often went out at 16 not dressed properly for cold weather, even in below zero windchills.

Plus the ice along the river would have been very slippery. I imagine some waves would have overlapped where ice had formed along the shores. The constant water overlapping ice and freezing would have made it very very slippery. Slippery enough that I do believe the above evidence is indicative of possible hypothermia and this being a tragic accident rather than something intentional.

 

[Satch]

I too didn't know his boots and coat were found. When I spoke to the detective sometime ago all he said were footprints leading to the river were found but there were none leading back.

It makes me wonder about hypothermia. It was bitterly cold the day Dermot disappeared. One of the things I have read about the effects of hypothermia is the person experiencing it feels overheated and often remove clothing. This may have been the case with Dermot if he wasn't dressed properly for the weather. And at 16 that wouldn't surprise me. I often went out at 16 not dressed properly for cold weather, even in below zero windchills.

Plus the ice along the river would have been very slippery. I imagine some waves would have overlapped where ice had formed along the shores. The constant water overlapping ice and freezing would have made it very very slippery. Slippery enough that I do believe the above evidence is indicative of possible hypothermia and this being a tragic accident rather than something intentional.

Interesting,

So when you think he left home he really could have been going target shooting? Intending to return? For me, that does not explain what he told his parents three days before he left, "I intend to make a new life on my own, and do it entirely on my own." However, it DOES lead to what I have considered, and once posted. About Dermot slipping on ice and falling in the river. He might have ventured to close to the river's edge, fell in, panicked, and if the current was strong, he could have been washed away.

You think an accidental drowning may have occurred here? Thanks for the information about hypothermia. The one thing that could move me away from this being an accident, is that there is evidence now that Dermot was despondent and down. He may have been suicidal. It just seems to me that this intelligent young man was far too smart to remove so much clothing as to be barefoot in the snow. He would have certainly known that he could have frozen to death by doing this.

Or could this have been a combination of accidental and intentional events? Suppose Dermot goes out, and maybe he did some target shooting in the woods, but being alone against the elements begins to contemplate all the problems at home, the pains in his life, the presumably high expectations of his family and goes into very deep meditation and psychological thought. Dermot is walking along the river and is thinking more about the pain in this life than the freezing cold weather. This is where he may have slipped and skidded on the ice and fallen into the river, gun, clothes, everything. He may have removed some clothes as he walked along the river, upset, stressed, overheated-just can't see how he would remove so much footwear as to be found barefoot.

The freezing water and Dermot possibly contemplating that "life is no longer worth living" may have mentally sapped his ability to save himself if he fell in the frozen lake. With so much going on at one, Dermot might have make a panicked and painful decision, "This is it." and would have succored to the elements very quickly with his mental state in turmoil and depression mode. His mode at the time, could have made him decide NOT to cry out for help because perhaps he just didn't care anymore.

How quickly could a person die from hypothermia?

Satch

 

[Cubby]

I'm not an expert on hypothermia. A person feels warm and just goes to sleep is how I have seen it described. Here is a little information on the changes in body temperature and it's effects.
http://www.medicinenet.com/hypothermia/page3.htm

From the above link:

The body starts to slow as the temperature drops. Aside from the cold that is felt and the shivering that may occur, mental function is most affected initially. A particular danger of hypothermia is that it develops gradually, and since it affects thinking and reasoning, it may go unnoticed.


Often the affected person will lie down, fall asleep, and die. In some cases, the patient will paradoxically remove their clothes just before this occurs.


With the symptoms described in the above link, I think it is possible he wasn't fully aware of how close he was to the rivers edge and was probably unaware that he was experiencing hypothermia.

The article describes him as both someone who was brilliant and someone experiencing some depression. I'm not sure the diagnosis of medical professionals at that time compared to todays knowledge, family pressures, social pressures, the times (late 60's early 70's) all of which would have influenced Dermot's thoughts at the time might have contributed to an accidental fall in the river or a deliberate decision. I tend to think those may have been common issues and struggles of many male teens his age at the time and were probably issues many families struggled with at the time.

I'd have to look up the weather again, but it was bitterly cold. Cold enough imo, the effects of hypothermia could have set in fairly quickly if he was not dressed for the weather.

IMO, if he wanted to do something to harm himself deliberately, he could very easily have done so in a way that nothing would have been found. No coat, no shoes. There are plenty of places in the immediate area he could have chosen to take his life and no sign of him would have been found. That's why I really lean more toward an accident. Especially having taken off the coat and shoes.


ETA: It is possible, imo, due to the decreased brain function described in the above link with hypothermia Dermot was simply unaware of how close he was to the waters edge. It is possible he slipped and fell in while in the process of removing his clothing. (as described in the above link). If you think about it, in what order would a person begin to remove their clothing? The coat and shoes would likely be first and second. It is possible if he had not been so close to the waters edge he would have continued removing clothing and been found further from the waters edge and the COD would have been hypothermia.

 

[Cubby]

Below is a link to a weather history almanac, and I remember typing in the zip code for Ogelsby and getting some weather information.

I got this weather data from the site below:

http://www.farmersalmanac.com/weather-history/

On January 30th, 1972, the closest available weather station to Ogles by, IL (PEORIA GREATER PEORIA AP, IL), reported the following conditions:


High Temp: 12.9F
Low Temp: 0F
Average Temp: 7.2F
Dewpoint: -1.4F
Wind Speed: 8.3 Knots
Precipitation Amount: 0 Inches
Snow Depth: n/a
Observations: n/a


See more historical weather results for Ogles by, IL

Respectfully snipped to bring the weather information to the current page.

 

[Cubby]

I found the address from where Dermot went missing upthread.

Here is a google map with the location. To the right or East, I believe is the Vermilion River. North is the larger river, the Illinois River. If I understand the msm article it is where these two rivers met that the footprints were found.

817 Swift, Oglesby, IL - Google Maps

If he started experiencing hypothermia, I think it is possible he became disoriented and lost his sense of direction heading North towards the Illinois River when he thought he was heading back South back towards home.

ETA: I would think with blue jeans on, even if he was wearing long johns, given the distance between his residence and where the foot prints were found, in 12-13 degree weather (without considering the wind chill factor) he would have certainly been experiencing some symptoms of hypothermia. I can't imagine walking that distance in 12 degrees.

The more I look at the information in the most recent article along with the weather, I'm more and more convinced this was a case of accidental drowning due to the effects of hypothermia.

 

[Satch]

I found the address from where Dermot went missing upthread.

Here is a google map with the location. To the right or East, I believe is the Vermilion River. North is the larger river, the Illinois River. If I understand the msm article it is where these two rivers met that the footprints were found.

817 Swift, Oglesby, IL - Google Maps

If he started experiencing hypothermia, I think it is possible he became disoriented and lost his sense of direction heading North towards the Illinois River when he thought he was heading back South back towards home.

ETA: I would think with blue jeans on, even if he was wearing long johns, given the distance between his residence and where the foot prints were found, in 12-13 degree weather (without considering the wind chill factor) he would have certainly been experiencing some symptoms of hypothermia. I can't imagine walking that distance in 12 degrees.

The more I look at the information in the most recent article along with the weather, I'm more and more convinced this was a case of accidental drowning due to the effects of hypothermia.

Thanks for all of this information! Yes, this could have been an accidental drowning due to the effects of hypothermia. Good point. If this had been a suicide, why would Dermot remove his boots, and coat? I agree with this. I am terrible at map reading. What would be the approximate distance that Dermot would have had to have walked in such cold weather from his house to where the evidence was found?

This new evidence has convinced me about 90% or better that Dermot did indeed drown in the river that tragic day. The two observations that I now have from the article would be the following:

1.) When was that unidentified body found? How far was it found from the other evidence? Could DNA have been used (based on the time-frame) when it was found?

2.) The rescue and search crews should have investigated the river more throughly after the weather had warmed up. This may have been a flaw in the original investigation.

I consider this a breakthrough in the Kelly case.

Satch

 

[Satch]

Boy Interrupted

What happened to Dermot F. Kelly?

The 16-year-old Oglesby boy hasn't been seen since Sunday, Jan. 30, 1972.

At 1:15 p.m. that bitterly cold day, Dermot left his home on Point Lookout, a wooded neighborhood near the south bank of the Vermilion River. The boy was clad in a black-and-white jacket and blue-jeans. An Accutron watch was strapped to his wrist and a .22-caliber rifle was in his hands, as he told his parents he was going to go target shooting. Dermot headed east along the river.

[snip]

The Center for Missing and Exploited Children was established in 1984. On Feb. 9, 1985, Kevin Kelly contacted the Center with information about his son. The Agency continues to list Dermot as missing. In fact, it is one of the Agency's oldest cases.

Melinda Stevens, Director of the Center's Missing Children Division, said there have been leads over the years that Dermot is dead, including a report a body was found, but which could not be identified.

"We keep hope here," Stevens pointed out.

Stevens said her agency did not know Dermot's jacket, boots and rifle were found soon after he disappeared, until informed by The Times.

More: http://mywebtimes.com/archives/ottawa/display.php?id=449448

I have e-mailed the writer of the above article on Dermot, who has been wonderful in responding to me and has granted me permission to add his own personal view on what he thinks happened to Dermot that day. This is what he said:

*********************************

Yes, cold cases are fascinating. Most of the new information came from the local news stories published at the time. I also obtained information by talking to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children and looking at the court file concerning the petition to have Dermot declared dead.

I believe Dermot either deliberately or accidentally went into the river and died, either from drowning, hypothermia or both. He also might have shot himself at the river's edge, then fell in.

It seems Dermot was suffering from serious depression. In 1972, the head of his school said Dermot missed several weeks of school the previous fall, because he was receiving medical treatment in the Chicago area. I'm guessing the "medical" treatment was actually psychiatric treatment. It would be interesting to know the type of rifle found in the water and, if it was a bolt action, there was a spent casing in the chamber. If there was, it would make me lean a bit more to suicide by gunshot. Overall, it's strange the parents allowed Dermot to leave home with a gun, considering they knew him to be despondent. They should not have even had a gun accessible to him in their home.

Dermot's body should have turned up, particularly at a dam. The next nearest dam on the Illinois is a bit south of Peoria.

I want to point out that upon reflection, the part of my story where I mentioned his father's obituary, is a bit misleading. I wrote that the obituary listed Dermot as having preceded his father in death; actually, Dermot was not mentioned at all. I misinterpreted this to mean he had preceded his father in death, but it did not actually say that. I've clarified this in the online story.

***************************

Satch

 

[Cubby]

I took a look at the map, Satch. It looks like about 6000' as the crow flies. That would lead me to believe he walked anywhere from 1.3-2 miles. Depending on the route he took. In 12 degree weather that would have been more than enough time, imo, for hypothermia to set in.

What UID are you refering to? (what unidentified body?) I don't recall information on one found in the area.

As far as suicide, I can't speculate there. This is a rural area, teens and boys would have grown up target shooting. I also can't speculate on the medical treatment, because I don't know the dynamics of the family. I've known two people IRL who had mental health treatment about that time. Neither the same age as Dermot. One would have received treatment in the early 60's, the other in the late 70's. The first I believe to have been more along the lines of issues from abuse, rather than actual 'mental illness'. The second was a few years younger than Dermot when she received treatment. I think she 13 or 14. And even with that, while I was too young to really understand it at the time, my best thoughts from being a friend and seeing her, was more usual teenage rebellion and a very strict domineering mother and a weaker father. I have a 3rd friend who was dx'd with schizophrenia and he later committed suicide when in his 20's. With him, I never noticed anything abnormal about him. We hung around in our teens and he was fine while he took his medicine. He had problems with taking the medicine due to society's stereotypes of the mentally ill.

Part of me leads back to wondering if Dermots hospitalization had more to do with his non conformance, or an actual illness. I lean towards the non conformance. Just a gut feeling.

As for the river and his body not being found. We did some research and discussion on silting patterns in Anna Waters forum. It led me to wonder about the silting patterns with the Vermilion and Illinois Rivers, along with how the bottom of the river would have been disturbed with that barge that was described in the MSM article. Could that barge have disturbed the bottom of a river in a way that Dermot would have been buried under silt and not found? We'd really need an expert on river flow patterns and silting. We don't even know if these rivers are still carrying away silt or depositing silt.

As for the author of the article. I think he did a fantastic job. We read so many MSM articles here at WS, and I think it is the best written article I have read in a long long time. Probably more than a year. I wish more journalists would put the effort into their research as this one did.

 

[Satch]

What UID are you refering to? (what unidentified body?) I don't recall information on one found in the area.

In the story above the author says from a source that over the years, leads have turned up indicating that Dermot is dead, including a body, but it could not be identified. Here is the exact quote:

"Melinda Stevens, Director of the Center's Missing Children Division, said there have been leads over the years that Dermot is dead, including a report a body was found, but which could not be identified.

"We keep hope here," Stevens pointed out."

It does not say where the body was found, just that it was UID. It would be interesting to get more information about this.

Satch

 

[dogperson]

I did not know until now that any of Dermot's belongings were ever found. Sadly, I think it sounds like he either went deliberately into the water or else he suffered from hypothermia or some other condition that made him unaware of what he was doing. If there were bare footprints going toward the water, but none coming back, I don't think he was faking his death. Plus I can't imagine anyone running away without their boots and jacket in that kind of weather, not unless this was preplanned and he had other clothing hidden there, but then we still have the problem of the footprints going to the water. If he intended to commit suicide one would think the coldness of the water would have led to very quick hypothermia and death. This is very sad. This is a case I have wondered about and always hoped he really was alive somewhere under another name.

 

[Satch]

I did not know until now that any of Dermot's belongings were ever found. Sadly, I think it sounds like he either went deliberately into the water or else he suffered from hypothermia or some other condition that made him unaware of what he was doing. If there were bare footprints going toward the water, but none coming back, I don't think he was faking his death. Plus I can't imagine anyone running away without their boots and jacket in that kind of weather, not unless this was preplanned and he had other clothing hidden there, but then we still have the problem of the footprints going to the water. If he intended to commit suicide one would think the coldness of the water would have led to very quick hypothermia and death. This is very sad. This is a case I have wondered about and always hoped he really was alive somewhere under another name.

I agree,

Either Dermot planned this, in which case the Target Shooting story was just a way to permanently dissolve himself from the family. OR.

He really went Target Shooting in that bitter cold, suffered hypothermia, and it got so bad, that his mental state, (already fragile to begin with, depression. seeking answers, family pressure, high expectations of conforming to authority from presumably strict parents.) affected his mind with the bad weather. He removed his clothes feeling overheated in the bitter cold and most likely slipped on ice falling in the river. If he did shoot himself into the river, the hypothermia and his mental pressures at the time, horrifyingly worked together to contribute to his suicide. This is what I lean towards.

Devastating that in all these years, no other information about the rifle and clothes at the scene ever surfaced. Perhaps the parents withheld the information from media because of Dermot's other siblings, with false optimism that over the years Dermot would be found. Awful situation here for this poor family. Especially with the father declaring Dermot legally dead, after looking for him for twenty years and his Mother courageously listing Dermot as a survivor in her obituary.

I am getting chills just writing this because it is so painful and so awful. His parents lived into the nineties with this pain and Dermot's brothers and sisters.

I hate how morbid what I am about to say may sound, but if a parent or loved one is missing, I have often wondered, why would you want to have them declared legally dead? What is gained by that?

This is just so sad!

Satch

 

[Cubby]

Thanks for the info on the UID Satch. I'm sure people have presented Dermot for various UID's over the years. There are more than 40,000 UID's in this country according to NamUs stat's.

Families usually have to have someone declared for financial reasons. Estates, social security benefits for minors of the missing. Usually the family must do so to settle their financial affairs for which the missing person may have claim. I can't explain to well, so I hope that makes a bit of sense.