IL IL - Dermot Kelly, 16, Oglesby, Jan 1972

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Hello,
I'm the reporter who wrote the Jan. 30th story about Dermot. The spot where his boots, jacket and rifle were found is where the Vermilion River feeds into the Illinois River. The Vermilion is relatively narrow there, but is often treacherous. The stretch of the Vermilion that courses by Oglesby is considered one of the top rivers in the Midwest for whitewater rafting, particularly in spring and early summer. There are a lot of rocks and boulders along the banks and in the water. The Illinois River at that point is deeper and much wider than the Vermilion, but less treacherous. The Illinois does have frequent barge traffic and in warm weather, recreational boating. From Dermot's home to the spot where his boots, jacket and gun were found, is about 1 1/2 miles.
I hope this presents a more clear picture for those not familiar with the location.
 
Thank you Dan and welcome to Websleuths. :welcome:

I had guessed about 1.25 miles so thank you for the confirmation, as well as the additional information about the Vermilion and Illinois Rivers.

I want to commend your work on the article about Dermot's disappearance. I've been a member of WS for 5 years this month and I think yours is by far the best, most well written article I have read.
I wish more journalists took their work as seriously as you do.
Fantastic, excellent job. Thank you!
 
Cubby said:
Thank you Dan and welcome to Websleuths. :welcome:

I had guessed about 1.25 miles so thank you for the confirmation, as well as the additional information about the Vermilion and Illinois Rivers.

I want to commend your work on the article about Dermot's disappearance. I've been a member of WS for 5 years this month and I think yours is by far the best, most well written article I have read.
I wish more journalists took their work as seriously as you do.
Fantastic, excellent job. Thank you!
Click to expand...

I echo what Cubby said Dan.

Thank you for your work on Dermot's case! It had great passion, sensitivity, and insight. It's great how people can come together like this, knowing that Dermot Kelly will never be forgotten!

Satch
 
I spoke with my step dad, retired LE, about the circumstances we recently learnt about Dermots case. As I suspected, his thoughts were similiar to mine, in that the Barge that went through the area Dermot was believed to have fallen into the Illinois River would have likely done a lot of disturbance to the river bed.

His comment were the engine in those barges are so strong and the currents are so strong who knows what kind of disturbances were created on the river bed. He had 23-25 or so years in law enforcement and retired as Chief of Police. (For privacy reasons I don't want to say the town, but it was not far from Oglesby). He said he'd be surprised anything would be found after that barge went through.
 
Satch said:
  • Did Dermot confide any any close friends or people outside of the family in discussions of what he was thinking? We have learned in Part 1 of the article that "You could never tell what Dermot was thinking. He would never say." Well, perhaps if there was strained relationships in the family, maybe Dermot would not want to say what he was thinking to family or other relatives, but perhaps to close friends. If those people are still around, what if anything did Dermot say to them before he disappeared that could indicate something was wrong?

  • Did Dermot keep a journal or diary of any kind? If this was collected as evidence, what did it say? Was there a pattern to Dermot's thoughts and writings that would suggest one behavior or set of behaviors over the others?

  • What items did Dermot value that he left behind? Sometimes very subtle clues of evidence can provide greater detail as to what a person might be thinking, acting, or planning to do.

  • Over the course of his life in years, months, days, weeks, before he left home, what was his personality like? If it changed over time, how?

  • Was Dermot taking any prescription or over the counter medication? If so, for what symptoms?

  • What little evidence there is of the parents' relationship suggests a faltering marriage that was sometimes abusive and a father going through a job loss? How long had the relationship been failing? Were Dermot and/or his other siblings subjected to a lot of anger or abusive behaviors in the home? This could certainly compel anyone over time to say, "I want out!!!!"

  • Was Dermot or any members of the family seeking therapy for the issues they were experiencing? For how long?

  • What was the relationship like between Dermot and his siblings?

  • How did the economic, social, and political changes of the times (60's-70's) affect Dermot and his family? Was there a lot of forced political beliefs instilled by the parents? For example they might have had strong conservative views vs. Dermot who may have supported 60's radical views? Maybe Dermot was looking for peace and love and could not find it in a home for a constant fighting and bickering. If such existed. Did this build up over time in the Kelly household and reach a boiling point, forcing Dermot to leave and never want to come back? I think this question is HUGE.

Satch
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In light of the new evidence, I have edited a post that I made above to reflect on what we now know about this case. Leaning towards a tragic suicide because of Dermot's powerful statement about three days before he left home:

"I intend to make a new life on my own, and do it entirely on my own." In light of Dermot's past family turmoil, receiving medical treatment, (likely psychological) I cannot move away from the power of Dermot's above statement. To me, that almost speaks of an oral suicide note. (And is it sort of strange that Dermot would walk almost over a mile from his home to go target shooting in such bad weather?) We know of no evidence that he had "targets" in his jacket. Unlikely that he had them in his pants pockets or shirt underneath his jacket, which like Dermot himself, was never found.

Dermot's intelligence, in the areas of both street smarts and book smarts, show a person who really even seems far smarter than his reported IQ of 150 would indicate. And a 150 IQ is excellent as it stands. I believe Dermot was very good at "covering his tracks" and being the philosophical, seemingly caring individual that he is, would NEVER want to be found. I think he likely intended to kill himself at the river. Now, if there was NO EVIDENCE of Dermot saying that he wanted to go away to start a new life, or of family conflict, or Dermot showed no past history of emotional pain, I would lean more towards an accident. I am not saying that hypothermia was not a role in what I believe WAS a drowning, I think it was. However, I don't think Dermot's intent was to go target shooting. Not with his comment to his parents just a few days before leaving home.

I think "Dermot running away to start a new life" has been disproven. However, I think Dermot would WANT his family to think that he ran away. I don't think he would feel that he gained anything by faking his own death. Dermot seems far too honest and sensitive to do that. Personally, I don't think he was out to be clever or cunning, just to find the best way to be at peace against so much pain in his life. I believe Dermot had emotional pain for a very, very, long time. This could have been going on for months to years. Maybe he shot himself before falling in the river, because dying in the river, would be harder for a body to be recovered than if he had committed suicide on land. Could it be that the affects of hypothermia could have even caused him to think in this way?

I agree that the barge going through destroyed any remaining evidence that could have led rescuers and search teams to find his body.

We know in regard to the quoted questions above that:

  • There were family issues.
  • Dermot felt hurt/pained by social issues of the time.
  • Dermot had past therapy.

The next step that would be interesting to find out is did Dermot confide in anybody how he felt that would lead him to do this? Whom did he talk to and when? Could they have helped him? Could they have SAVED him?

I would love to know what tangible items Dermot left behind? Things in his room/home that he valued? His hobbies and interests? The HUGE QUESTION:

Did he keep a journal? Was it collected as evidence at the home? What was in it?

Satch
 
Respectfully. I have a hard time believing Dermot would have picked this spot to commmit suicide. If he wanted to cover his tracks and not be found, why would he have told his parents where he was going? Why would he have taken off his boots and coat? (If we are to dismiss hypothermia as the main reason for his drowning?) There are roads not far from where he lived which are trucking routes. He could have hitched anywhere. Yes, he could have been sighted by truckers but if he didn't share his plans with a total stranger or gave a stranger different details, said he was going East but went West or vice versa, he could have easily disappeared himself without leaving the evidence which was found.

Why would he have chosen an area which was known for bodies almost always being found?

How would he have known a barge would be coming through within days of his drowning/disappearance which would increase the liklihood he would not be found?

IMO, if it was a suicide and he still had the werewithal (sp?) to think about committing suicide and cover his tracks, he would have not taken his shoes and coat off and still walked approximately 20 feet to the water leaving traceable tracks in the snow.

That he did, leads me to believe the effects of hypothermia had effected his judgement. IIRC, hypothermia also sometimes causes hallucinations. I think it is possible he was unable to judge the distance or place where the the frozen water ended and the non frozen river began. I highly believe due to the effects of hypothermia he could have misjudged that distance or spot and possibly believed he saw something to shoot at. Whether it was really there or not, we don't and will never know, but based on the facts in the article and what scientists/doctors know about hypothermia this is the most likely scenario for me.

Perhaps his ability to think was hampered by hypothermia and he found some strength after taking his coat and boots off, but didn't remember he took them off and tried to get up to walk for help. Not realizing he was walking in the wrong direction and straight into danger.
 
Additionally. Most of what was said about Dermot, was someone else's perceptions. We don't have any direct quotes from Dermot himself other than the statement from his father that Dermot wanted to go make a life for himself all on his own. (paraphrased from memory.)

Maybe I am personalizing this too much, but having grown up in a family where I wasn't permitted to have my own thoughts, my own feelings or seek out my own direction with my own interests... I can't help but believe that perhaps something along those lines was the basis for the family struggles Dermot had with his family. Especially during such changing times as the late 60's, early 70's. For example, something along the lines of everyone in our family went to college, so Dermot will go to College. The family has always done it this way, so Dermot will do it this way.

I don't place blame on anyone if that were the case. It's just something that stood out to me with Dermots comment that he was going to make a life for himself on his own terms. Maybe the medical treatment he received was not necessarily for depression or mental illness, but the families way of trying to get Dermot to conform to their way of thinking. Especially since we know he attended parochial school.

Maybe he was depressed or despondant because of his own true self being stifled. Without anyone to encourage and show interest in his becoming the person he truly wanted to be. Maybe he went target shooting to have some time by himself to think. He had many siblings, so perhaps he didn't have the privacy he sought at home to think. Or perhaps as he expressed his independent minded way of thinking he was given less room to 'breath' and pursue his own independent dreams.


Just my thoughts based on the knowledge we learnt from the most recent article.
 
Cubby said:
Additionally. Most of what was said about Dermot, was someone else's perceptions. We don't have any direct quotes from Dermot himself other than the statement from his father that Dermot wanted to go make a life for himself all on his own. (paraphrased from memory.)

Maybe I am personalizing this too much, but having grown up in a family where I wasn't permitted to have my own thoughts, my own feelings or seek out my own direction with my own interests... I can't help but believe that perhaps something along those lines was the basis for the family struggles Dermot had with his family. Especially during such changing times as the late 60's, early 70's. For example, something along the lines of everyone in our family went to college, so Dermot will go to College. The family has always done it this way, so Dermot will do it this way.

I don't place blame on anyone if that were the case. It's just something that stood out to me with Dermots comment that he was going to make a life for himself on his own terms. Maybe the medical treatment he received was not necessarily for depression or mental illness, but the families way of trying to get Dermot to conform to their way of thinking. Especially since we know he attended parochial school.

Maybe he was depressed or despondant because of his own true self being stifled. Without anyone to encourage and show interest in his becoming the person he truly wanted to be. Maybe he went target shooting to have some time by himself to think. He had many siblings, so perhaps he didn't have the privacy he sought at home to think. Or perhaps as he expressed his independent minded way of thinking he was given less room to 'breath' and pursue his own independent dreams.


Just my thoughts based on the knowledge we learnt from the most recent article.
Click to expand...

Great thoughts and insight, Cubby!

If Dermot's presumed river drowning was due to the effects of hypothermia and nothing more, do you think that maybe Dermot, if that tragedy had not happened, he really could have contemplated running away from home to start a new life? Could this be the interpretation of his quote to his parents,(i.e maybe join the hippie movement?) as a poster who claimed that Dermot was her Mother's younger brother said that Dermot had friends who had done that?

I think there are going to be strong opinion splits between suicide vs. accidental death, or even what his Mother's side of the family seemed to believe by refusing to acknowledge the possibility of death, no matter what the cause. (Believing that he ran away.) I agree that without having insight from Dermot himself, it will be very hard to find out exactly what he was thinking on that painful and heartbreaking day for the Kelly family.

Many things about this case may never be known. One thing that Dan told me, was he thought an examination of the gun might help determine cause of presumed death. He said if it was a bolt-action rifle, with a spent casing in the chamber, he would be more inclined to believe suicide by gunshot. If it was not there, he would lean towards an assumed accidental death by hypothermia. I agree that the evidence of hypothermia is intense in this case.

I think hypothermia played a role, whether Dermot's death was accidental or not.

Satch
 
Thanks Satch. I agree. And I hope my posts are coming across as just my thoughts, based on what we know, more than trying to sway anyone from either conclusion. Accidental or not. We can agree to disagree, and discuss various theories. Or even the pro's or cons of one or the other. Knowing the answer to the question regarding the gun, would certainly be helpful for a better idea of which it might be.

That Dermot told his family he was going to start a life on his own, on his own terms, along with his family being aware of his thoughts about hypocrisy and inequalities in society tells me he had enough courage to speak of and share these things. That he wasn't so stifled and introverted he kept those thoughts to himself. What we don't know is how his family responded to those thoughts and ideals Dermot shared. That maybe he remained aloof when they didn't share his interest.

Yes, I think he could have made a life for himself. I don't know that he would have done so prior to finishing high school. We don't know what value Dermot placed on education. He may have chose to do so after graduation, rather than chosing to legally drop out at age 16. In Illinois the legal age to drop out is currently 16 and was 16 in the 80's. I don't know what it was in 1972.


We don't know if Dermots family (father in particular) had ties which helped him obtain his position in life. Maybe someone who helped him get that job, that client, or a long line of attorney's in his family. Maybe some kind of political position. These are just examples for lack of a better way to phrase it. Maybe Dermot didn't want that hand up, which he may have viewed as a hand out.

My impression is Dermot was deeply compassionate towards subjects and individuals who were taboo to his family. And by that I do not mean sexual orientation. I mean causes type thing.

Dermot is certainly an intriguing fascinating person. One I think I would have liked to meet and talk to. Listen to what he thought and had to say. Maybe because we are of two very different generations ( I graduated HS in the 80's) the common interests wouldn't have been there, but needless to say, I do find him interesting. I think he had a lot to offer society, and that had he had the right encouragement, not necessarily from family or teachers, but from those who shared his common interests he would have made a great impact.

We'll never know what he may have accomplished..... gone too young, many unanswered questions and unknowns.
 
My impression is Dermot was deeply compassionate towards subjects and individuals who were taboo to his family. And by that I do not mean sexual orientation. I mean causes type thing.

Dermot is certainly an intriguing fascinating person. One I think I would have liked to meet and talk to. Listen to what he thought and had to say. Maybe because we are of two very different generations ( I graduated HS in the 80's) the common interests wouldn't have been there, but needless to say, I do find him interesting. I think he had a lot to offer society, and that had he had the right encouragement, not necessarily from family or teachers, but from those who shared his common interests he would have made a great impact.

We'll never know what he may have accomplished..... gone too young, many unanswered questions and unknowns.
Click to expand...

Cosign!

I agree 100% Dermot just seems like this devoted humanitarian and listener who could have given so much to others and was gone too young. Maybe he envied a care-free, radical, free spirited, society. I sense the family being ultra-strict and very conservative, with high expectations for their children. Father a lawyer, I think it said that one (or both) sisters are physicians?

Dermot may have liked or loved to study topics that were taboo to other family members because they might have had different beliefs than he. For some reason, if a diary of thoughts or writings ever turned up and I could get a chance to read it, I would find what he had to say so interesting, that I couldn't put the book down!

Something tells me Dermot was a great writer! I see him as what he could have been, a writer, particularly poetry, or an artist. Maybe a career in social work or something.

Satch
 
I gave some thought to Dermots remains not being found if he did fall into the river.

How far did the barge travel? Could Dermot have been dragged miles to wherever the barge traveled? What is the possibility that the barge carried/dragged Dermot to a far away location from where it is believed he entered the river?

Would a group such as TES (Texas Equusearch) http://texasequusearch.org/

or NecroSearch International, http://www.necrosearch.com/

or another agency with similiar state of the art search equipment be viable options for a search this many years later?


Are there any reports of skeletal human remains found in the Illinois River which have not made databases such as DoeNetwork or NamUs? (I see MSM articles on UID's all the time that never make it into DoeNetwork, NamUs or even a county coroners website that lists unidentified.)

Still hoping Dermot can be found, one way or the other, and given a proper burial. If in fact, he is no longer living.
 
Pantagraph, The : Teams dig in Starved Rock area - <br>Stude...

&#8206;
$2.95 - The Pantagraph - Jul 24, 1992
... would be where the rapids halted canoe traffic on the Illinois River - the place known today as Starved Rock State Park. ... Indians had found Starved Rock a popular stopping place for at least 10 ... "We're not after human bones," said Brown.


Copied from google news archives search since this is a ptv article. Where any human remains found during this search which were determined not to be ancient or native indian remains?
 
Cubby-thanks for the information above! It just goes to show how any cold cases should always remain open because you never know what new evidence may turn up and where. We must be mid-readers, because last night I was also thinking about how far Dermot's body could have been dragged by that barge, if he fell in the river.

How deep and far are the Illinois and Vermillian Rivers where the evidence in Dermot's case was found?

On a more positive note, to keep some optimism alive in this case, if Dermot is still living after all these years, it would certainly be one of the greatest and most touching stories ever witnessed, if he came around just to tell us he was OK and how indeed he survived that day. What he did, and why he did what he did, would be incredible to hear that could not be put in into words!!! A true story to the testament and the spirit of human survival!

On the other hand, Dermot if he is still living, needs to know that it's OK if he does not want to come forward or talk about his case. We have to respect his right to privacy, and if alive, he has been through more emotions and experiences than most of us would have in a lifetime.

I think closure is going to come to this case. Someday. Remember that in 1972, they did not have the technology for searching and identifying evidence and past UID's like they do now. What does the community think that if Dermot died in the river that some evidence could be found today? I am thinking along the lines of skeletal remains. Or would the water and erosion have washed away skeletal remains?

Look at how far we came with Dan's article and the new information that was previously known only to the family and private agencies about the river and Dermot's jacket, boots, and rife found! And this was after forty YEARS! I kept thinking that nothing was ever going to develop anymore. However, Dan's research and information gives me new hope that closure will come to Dermot's case.

Satch
 
The Chicago Tribune column by Robert Weidrich appears to have relied entirely upon information provided by the parents. There is no mention that Dermot's boots and jacket, and presumably his rifle, were found. If between the time these items were found on Jan. 31, 1972 and publication of the column in December 1974, it was determined these items did not belong to Dermot, it should have been mentioned in the column. This leads me to believe the parents did not mention the items to Weidrich.
 
Dan Churney said:
The Chicago Tribune column by Robert Weidrich appears to have relied entirely upon information provided by the parents. There is no mention that Dermot's boots and jacket, and presumably his rifle, were found. If between the time these items were found on Jan. 31, 1972 and publication of the column in December 1974, it was determined these items did not belong to Dermot, it should have been mentioned in the column. This leads me to believe the parents did not mention the items to Weidrich.
Click to expand...


True.

Also from your article, Dan:

Melinda Stevens, Director of the Center's Missing Children Division, said there have been leads over the years that Dermot is dead, including a report a body was found, but which could not be identified.

"We keep hope here," Stevens pointed out.

Stevens said her agency did not know Dermot's jacket, boots and rifle were found soon after he disappeared, until informed by The Times.

http://mywebtimes.com/archives/ottawa/display.php?id=449448


In my search for information on undentified remains discovered along the IL river, I read that it was not until sometime in the 1990's that a federal law became effective no longer allowing human skeletal remains in private collections. Because the area where Dermot disappeared is well known for Native Indian remains, I can't help but be concerned if something was found unknowingly someone may have kept partial remains believing they were Native American. Probably unlikely, but the possibility exists, as awful as it is to consider.
 
Cubby said:
UTICA &#8212; Human remains have been located in the Illinois River near Starved Rock State Park in north-central Illinois.

http://www.rrstar.com/updates/x1700912273/Human-remains-found-in-Illinois-River-near-state-park

These remains were found in April of 2011. There is nothing in the article to indicate the condition the remains were found. (what state of decomp, fully skeletal or ??) Have these remains been identified?
Click to expand...

How would the recovery personal go about comparing those remains to Dermot's DNA? I have another uneasy feeling here. Not unusual for me, I often think about this case. I find it both immensely tragic and haunting.

Satch
 
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