IL IL - Dermot Kelly, 16, Oglesby, Jan 1972

[Cubby]

How would the recovery personal go about comparing those remains to Dermot's DNA? I have another uneasy feeling here. Not unusual for me, I often think about this case. I find it both immensely tragic and haunting.

Satch

I don't know if these remains are still unidentified. They don't appear on DoeNetwork or NamUs. The articles indicated they might belong to a woman missing from the area much closer to the date the remains were found. I didn't find any additional articles indicating whether or not they were those of the woman missing.

I could do a little more digging. Otherwise a call to the ME's office to determine if they were ever id'd would give us confirmation.

Unfortunately it is believed there are 40,000 unidentified remains in the US. There is no where near that number listed in any database volunteer researchers such as us at WS would have access to.

 

[Satch]

In my search for information on unidentified remains discovered along the IL river, I read that it was not until sometime in the 1990's that a federal law became effective no longer allowing human skeletal remains in private collections. Because the area where Dermot disappeared is well known for Native Indian remains, I can't help but be concerned if something was found unknowingly someone may have kept partial remains believing they were Native American. Probably unlikely, but the possibility exists, as awful as it is to consider.

Google Maps shows that Utica, IL is only about 15 Minutes or 9.5 miles away from Oglesby. Close enough where one following this case, would be concerned about that distance:

Here is the map:

http://maps.google.com/maps?rls=com...code_result&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ-A8wAA

We would need to take time frames, and figure out how many missing people could be from that area. What we don't know and could use someone with background in geology here, would be how long could bones/remains stay in an active water source before they could no longer be identified? Would those remains just vanish over time, and how much time would we be talking about?

I think it would also depend on what type of representative sample we would be talking about over time. If remains could be in the river for 100-500 years (or more) and go back throughout history and if this area was used for some ritualistic burials or something. I share Cubby's concern about these remains.

However, if historically there were not a lot of people missing from that area with a smaller representative sample, it might be easier to test. Note, not easy to test, but easier to test.

Satch

 

[Cubby]

I should have done a little more research Satch. I actually spoke with the LaSalle County coroner a few months back. (maybe last summer) about a Jane Doe that is not listed in NamUs. I put her in contact with two NamUs case manager volunteers to try and get her back into NamUs. She was having problems logging in.

When we spoke she informed me there is only one UID in LaSalle County, which is a female. Oglesby is in LaSalle County.

Because bones have been found that are determined to be 1000's of years old I'm sure something might be still found, or findable. I don't know what direction the currents flow for the IL River. We don't know which direction the Barge was traveling.

Dan mentioned the area where it is believed Dermot may have fallen into the river is very deep. Is it possible Dermot could still be in the area hung up on something and would not have been disturbed by the barge traffic?

I think a geologist who specializes in IL rivers, current patterns, silt patterns, seasonal patterns might answer those questions the best. I have class now 3 nights a week until early April. I won't have much extra time to search now, but when I get a little more free time I will see what kind of info we can find which might answer some of those questions. Or perhaps find an expert we can write who may be able to offer some kind of expert advise on those questions.

 

[Satch]

Some hypothetical questions: (Food for Thought)

1.) Armed with the evidence of a rifle, found at the scene, believed to be Dermot's, his boots, and jacket, do you think investigators should have searched that river more than they did? Do you think it was right of them to stop because of the freezing conditions? What else could they have done, armed with the river evidence at that time?

2.) Do you think the possibility of suicide and/or hypothermia was indeed the evidence that Dermot's family kept private, and off of public record?

3.) Do you think there was also writings or journals that Dermot kept that may have been found in his room, which may have given clues to his moods, communications, or actions, leading up to his disappearance?

4.) Do you think Dermot may have confided in anybody as to his moods and feelings leading up to his disappearance?

5.A.) Do you think Dermot, if he is still living will be found? Do you believe perhaps he does not want to be found? Do you think he would be interesting in the people that care about his case?

OR​

5.B.) do you think that if Dermot is deceased, his remains will be found? Or not be found? Do you lean towards accidental death? Suicide? or a combination of both, with hypothermia playing a role? I have general ideas regarding the answers to these questions. However, to be as open-ended as possible, I won't give my answers for some time, because I think that testing and technology over months with the new interest in this case, has a strong likelihood of closure for what happened to him.

The Illinois and Vermilion Rivers I think will provide the potential for closure, based on checking and testing for what is, or isn't there.

Satch

 

[Satch]

Some hypothetical questions: (Food for Thought)

1.) Armed with the evidence of a rifle, found at the scene, believed to be Dermot's, his boots, and jacket, do you think investigators should have searched that river more than they did? Do you think it was right of them to stop because of the freezing conditions? What else could they have done, armed with the river evidence at that time?

2.) Do you think the possibility of suicide and/or hypothermia was indeed the evidence that Dermot's family kept private, and off of public record?

3.) Do you think there was also writings or journals that Dermot kept that may have been found in his room, which may have given clues to his moods, communications, or actions, leading up to his disappearance?

4.) Do you think Dermot may have confided in anybody as to his moods and feelings leading up to his disappearance?

5.A.) Do you think Dermot, if he is still living will be found? Do you believe perhaps he does not want to be found? Do you think he would be interesting in the people that care about his case?

OR​

5.B.) do you think that if Dermot is deceased, his remains will be found? Or not be found? Do you lean towards accidental death? Suicide? or a combination of both, with hypothermia playing a role? I have general ideas regarding the answers to these questions. However, to be as open-ended as possible, I won't give my answers for some time, because I think that testing and technology over months with the new interest in this case, has a strong likelihood of closure for what happened to him.

The Illinois and Vermilion Rivers I think will provide the potential for closure, based on checking and testing for what is, or isn't there.

Satch

More questions to study in Dermot's case:

We know that his boots, jacket, and rifle were found. (Or at least a rifle, presumed to be his with a missing telescope site that could have fallen off in the water.) Consider the following:

1.) Bare footprints were found going from the bank of the river to the river with no return prints. What happened to Dermot's regular shoes and socks? I would assume he had socks, although I knew a guy in high school that almost never wore socks even when it was cold. But not as cold as reported that day.

2.) It also remains strange that we have a rifle found, believed to be his under the ice with no other evidence found in the river. It is assumed the current was strong and the water was deep, and that Dermot fell into the river either from the affects of hypothermia, suicide, or a combination of these factors. Isn't it strange that a rifle would be found, but no sign of Dermot or his body during the search? And why would, believed to be his gun, be found close to just below the river, but no sign of Dermot? Wouldn't both his rifle and his body either travel very far away, especially with strong currents involved in a short period of time? Wouldn't both the gun, and Dermot's remains, if he drowned in the river, either be very far away from their entry points or deep down? The same questions could be asked of Dermot's missing regular shoes and socks.

I think investigators may have been on to something with that found rifle. I keep thinking about Dan's theory. That an indentation in the bullet casing, or lack of it, could be used to find out if Dermot died, was it a suicide, or an accidental drowning?

Satch

 

[Kimster]

:rose: Dermot is our featured cold case from 3/11 to 3/18/2012 :rose:

 

[JeannieC]

Dermott Faulkner Kelly

Age 16

age progressed to age 54

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/k/kelly_dermot.html

 

[Satch]

A VERY SPECIAL THANK YOU!

For the WS staff and community for featuring Dermot's case!!! Thank you for thinking of him and your support!

Satch

 

[LucyOso]

From what I know about paradoxical undressing, it is not a methodical process. Typically, with hypothermia all of the blood is shunted to the core...so taking off both boots may be physically difficult as the person would have no ability to manage shoe laces or buckles by that time and would be seriously mentally impaired. One boot, maybe. A coat and shirt, yes. Drop the rifle, yes. It would be interesting to see how the items where found. If they were organized or in a small area, that would be odd for hypothermia. If they were strewn over a larger distance, kind of haphazardly, that would make sense for hypothermia. Often, cloths will be torn or ripped off towards the end, due to the nature of hypothermia. It is like trying to rip burning clothes off...Frantic, impulsive and highly disorganized and with no feeling in the persons hands or fingers.

Maybe, he had planned this and had items stashed for his travels. With a fairly well off family, he may have had taken money, etc. if no one was paying attention. He was very smart.

Anyway, when I saw Dermot's picture it reminded me of this UID right away.

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1010umtx.html


The height is off. But, I am not certain the conditions of the UID's remains. What struck me, besides the images, was the spinal bifida. Do we know what Dermot was hospitalized for? This also would be something that may be keep a secret as physical abnormalities can be "shameful". They did look similar to me, but I am new at this. :blushing:

 

[Satch]

From what I know about paradoxical undressing, it is not a methodical process. Typically, with hypothermia all of the blood is shunted to the core...so taking off both boots may be physically difficult as the person would have no ability to manage shoe laces or buckles by that time and would be seriously mentally impaired. One boot, maybe. A coat and shirt, yes. Drop the rifle, yes. It would be interesting to see how the items where found. If they were organized or in a small area, that would be odd for hypothermia. If they were strewn over a larger distance, kind of haphazardly, that would make sense for hypothermia. Often, cloths will be torn or ripped off towards the end, due to the nature of hypothermia. It is like trying to rip burning clothes off...Frantic, impulsive and highly disorganized and with no feeling in the persons hands or fingers.

Maybe, he had planned this and had items stashed for his travels. With a fairly well off family, he may have had taken money, etc. if no one was paying attention. He was very smart.

Anyway, when I saw Dermot's picture it reminded me of this UID right away.

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1010umtx.html


The height is off. But, I am not certain the conditions of the UID's remains. What struck me, besides the images, was the spinal bifida. Do we know what Dermot was hospitalized for? This also would be something that may be keep a secret as physical abnormalities can be "shameful". They did look similar to me, but I am new at this. :blushing:

Good observation of Dermot's clothes and where exactly where they found? Several distances away, or within close proximity to each other? We have Dermot's jacket boots, shoes, and socks removed, with boots found, and bare feet going toward the river with no return prints.

A planned runaway situation is possible. However, I still contend that Dermot would not want to expose himself to intensional physical pain. If he was going to run away, why remove his clothes? Why not take money and lodgings with him for the long journey? And to do so in such bitter cold with a rifle. I just could not see Dermot being allowed on a bus or hitchhiking with a gun. Who would pick him up with a gun? Maybe someone he knew? But there is no evidence that any people from that area vanished on that exact same day. And with the bitter cold weather, and worse if there were wind chills, Dermot tragically would not be likely to survive with bare feet, snow, and ice.

Sadly, most of the circumstantial evidence seems to point to a suicide by intentional or accidental drowning, or hypothermia playing a role either intensifying Dermot's already fragile mental state. Multiple conditions most likely made him purposefully or accidentally walk into that river, or fall into the river, and very likely the effects of the weather, cold, hypothermia, and/or a gunshot if Dermot may have killed himself, or if hypothermia caused him to become so disoriented that he could have killed himself.

If he PLANNED to kill himself, the effects of hypothermia may have only made matters worse. Or if this was a case of hypothermia exclusively with an accidental drowning, could Dermot had become so disoriented as to commit suicide either with the gun or falling in the river and just not know what he was doing, or where he was? Leading to a painfully fatal and tragic result? Several terrible things may have had a domino affect for poor Dermot.

Dermot just does not seem like the type of person who would fake things and be deceitful, so if he died that day, I don't think he planned to run away. If hypothermia played a role here, nobody, not just Dermot, would be coordinated enough to cover their steps and their return prints from not being seen. Dermot would just plan ahead for a long journey if he was going to run away with the proper clothes, food, and shelter with him. Just leave and say, "I'm going to a friends house for awhile." But in reality, just hitch a ride or a flight out of town? Or to another state? Out of the country?

The Dermot Kelly Case, conjures up three equally likely scenarios for me:

1.) A fragile state of mind with an intent to kill himself making sure that he was never found. Using the target shooting story to distance himself from the family. A shockingly painful shooting of himself and or falling into the river creating instant hypothermia and death. The depth of the water and rushing currents, tragically making his body impossible to find, especially after the barge went through.

OR.

2.) A fragile state of mind with an intent to go target shooting to distance himself from the pain and turmoil in his family and life. The need to be alone. Dermot is unaware of how cold it gets, may have shot at some targets on the river, starts taking off his clothes because of the effects of hypothermia, has no awareness of his surrounding, falls in the river and drowns. He certainly would not be coordinated enough to swim for help if hypothermia was as bad as it could have been. This scenario says "accidental drowning."

OR

3.) A fragile state of mind when leaving the house. Tells his parents he is going target shooting, but goes to the river to mediate. Hypothermia sets in and he thinks about doing something crazy because of the effects of the hypothermia. He does something "stupid" because the hypothermia renders this normally extremely intelligent kid's thoughts into dangerous risk-taking. Dermot thinks something totally out of character for him because of hypothermia, "I think I'll swim as far as I can." takes off his boots, shoes, and socks, jacket too, "Can't go swimming with a jacket on." Jumps into the water, and gets swept away in minutes by the strong currents.

Version #1 is intended suicide. Version #2 is accidental death. Version #3 is accidental death because of hypothermia.

And if all three versions are wrong and this man survived all he has been through, it would be one of the most incredible recovery stories of all time! I do think that if Dermot is alive, I don't think he wants to be found.

Satch

 

[Cubby]

From what I know about paradoxical undressing, it is not a methodical process. Typically, with hypothermia all of the blood is shunted to the core...so taking off both boots may be physically difficult as the person would have no ability to manage shoe laces or buckles by that time and would be seriously mentally impaired. One boot, maybe. A coat and shirt, yes. Drop the rifle, yes. It would be interesting to see how the items where found. If they were organized or in a small area, that would be odd for hypothermia. If they were strewn over a larger distance, kind of haphazardly, that would make sense for hypothermia. Often, cloths will be torn or ripped off towards the end, due to the nature of hypothermia. It is like trying to rip burning clothes off...Frantic, impulsive and highly disorganized and with no feeling in the persons hands or fingers.

Maybe, he had planned this and had items stashed for his travels. With a fairly well off family, he may have had taken money, etc. if no one was paying attention. He was very smart.

Anyway, when I saw Dermot's picture it reminded me of this UID right away.

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1010umtx.html


The height is off. But, I am not certain the conditions of the UID's remains. What struck me, besides the images, was the spinal bifida. Do we know what Dermot was hospitalized for? This also would be something that may be keep a secret as physical abnormalities can be "shameful". They did look similar to me, but I am new at this. :blushing:

Thank you, LucyOso,

I'd welcome you, but since you've been a member of WS almost a year, I will thank you for coming out of lurkdom to post here in Dermot's thread.

Great info on the organization of how Dermot's clothing was found. I hadn't thought to consider how hypothermia would have caused him to be haphazard in discarding the clothing, or even caused difficulty in removing his boots.

I wonder if the gentleman who wrote the most recent MSM article would be able to obtain that information.

Going to take a closer look at the UID found in Houston shortly.

 

[Cubby]

The UID LucyOso suggested is the last remaining unidentified victim of a well known serial killer, Dean Corll. While I agree Dermot strongly resembles the recon for the UID, I think the heights are too far off for this to be Dermot. Dermot is listed at 6' and the UID 5'2-5'7". Sometimes we see errors in hts for UID's but with this victim, but I think due to the interest in seeing all Corll's victims ID'd an inaccuracy in the listed ht of the UID would have been uncovered by now, if one existed.


Just to double check, I wish Dermot's dentals were listed at NamUs. NamUs only indicates they are charted and entered. The UID has all natrual teeth with no restorations. I wonder if Dermot had any known restorations. It would be so much simpler if the ME and or LE would just add the dental info so regular Joe's likes ourselves can do a quick comparison and see if we could rule out.

It might be worth a call to the LE handling Dermot's case just to get a confirmation on a rule out...... or, we can assume it is an automatic rule out by Codis as there is DNA for both the UID and Dermot. We verified some time ago, there is DNA available for Dermot.

Keep looking!

 

[LucyOso]

While I agree Dermot strongly resembles the recon for the UID, I think the heights are too far off for this to be Dermot. Dermot is listed at 6' and the UID 5'2-5'7".

Thank you for clarifying all of that. I was thinking yesterday, with the UID having spinal bifida, often SB people can have scoliosis as well. That would change the height a bit if in life Dermot wore a back brace to correct postural issues. Measured with a brace alive and without one can be up to a few inches. And depending on the decomp of the remains, skeletal etc...

I was also thinking if someone wants to disappear from whatever mental, spiritual or emotional anguish, a little physical pain...i.e. cold feet on snow with a bag set-up with shoes nearby didn't seem unreasonable. Making it look like an accident would remove the stigma of suicide or a run-away from the family. In someways he may be thoughtful in a sense by thinking that way. Some people do think they are thoughtful by leaving.

Anyway, I guess I should have mentioned all my thoughts before. LOL. I agree it would be very helpful to have the dental information. When I looked on NAMUS it was saying no DNA, etc.

The reality it would seem as you have stated, if he had left his shoes and coat neatly on the bank was that he went to retrieve something from the ice or water. Maybe he shot something and it landed on or near the ice. It is very easy to slid into the water or break through the ice edge and be unable to rescue one's self... :-(

A few questions: Does NAMUS automatically run the DNA? Each time a new DNA profile is entered is it automated? Just curious...Thanks for all your insight!

 

[Cubby]

From what I know about NamUs, is it automatically generates possible matches for comparison. Which are then sent to a group of volunteers to review and possibly submit to the appropriate agencies.

It is also my understanding both LE and ME have a way to search MP's or UID's as well which are not available to the general public. We have to do our own manual searches or set up our own database for comparison.

When DNA is available it should be an automatic CODIS comparison and rule out. IF the dna types are comparable. It is my understanding mitochondrial dna and nuclear dna can not be compared because they come from two different places in the body. (I'm sorry I can't give a more scientific explanation than that, with my non expertise.)

The one thing we learnt from both LE and the recent MSM article is the foot prints led to the river. There were none returning back. That would tend to rule out Dermot somehow walking back and being able to hide footprints leading away from the river.

The only way I can possibly consider a living Dermot out there somewhere, is if he had this planned and an accomplice somehow was able to navigate a boat of somekind and able to pick up Dermot at that spot where the Illinois and Vermilion rivers intersected. I don't know how plausible that may be, as I have no idea about river/boating traffic in the conditions in which Dermot disappeared. (aside from the barge mentioned in the MSM article)

hth

 

[LucyOso]

Thank you so much for the information and your patience!

 

[Cubby]

Thank you so much for the information and your patience!

Oh, no worries at all! I started out here with zero knowledge of any of this. Didn't even have an interest in missing persons or true crime when I found WS. I found it accidently looking for a non related topic... Started reading, got hooked, joined..... I asked a lot of questions, and we are all here to work together. There is no need for me to keep my knowledge a secret here. The more who know, the more who can help sleuth.....

 

[Cubby]

I spoke with my step dad earlier last night and asked him about possible boat traffic on or near the Illinois Vermilion river. (I've mentioned previously, my step dad is retired LE, 25 or so years and worked outside of the Chicago metro area.... ). His comment was commercial traffic only would be a possibility for having been in that area the day Dermot went missing.

Now could Dermot have made contact with someone who would be willing to have picked him up?

My step dads response was we'd first have to know why Dermot may have chosen to do so. I think the info we have about what was on Dermot's mind before he disappeared is compelling enough to consider he might have made that arrangement.

While I still think it is a long shot, it might be interesting to see if there was any way to determine if commercial traffic went past the area he was believed to enter the river the day he went missing. No idea how we'd uncover that without the possible assistance of the journalist who wrote the story on the 40th anniversary of Dermots disappearance. I don't even know if river traffic records still exist from that far back....

I'm going to preface the following with the disclosure I know nothing about guns. From memory, I told my step dad about some of the previous comments regarding the gun that was found. He said something, sorry I forget what it is called, should have remained locked if it were a suicide. and that the shell casing should not have exited if it were a suicide. Maybe that will make sense to someone with more gun knowledge than my own.

 

[Satch]

I spoke with my step dad earlier last night and asked him about possible boat traffic on or near the Illinois Vermilion river. (I've mentioned previously, my step dad is retired LE, 25 or so years and worked outside of the Chicago metro area.... ). His comment was commercial traffic only would be a possibility for having been in that area the day Dermot went missing.

Now could Dermot have made contact with someone who would be willing to have picked him up?

My step dads response was we'd first have to know why Dermot may have chosen to do so. I think the info we have about what was on Dermot's mind before he disappeared is compelling enough to consider he might have made that arrangement.

While I still think it is a long shot, it might be interesting to see if there was any way to determine if commercial traffic went past the area he was believed to enter the river the day he went missing. No idea how we'd uncover that without the possible assistance of the journalist who wrote the story on the 40th anniversary of Dermot's disappearance. I don't even know if river traffic records still exist from that far back....

I'm going to preface the following with the disclosure I know nothing about guns. From memory, I told my step dad about some of the previous comments regarding the gun that was found. He said something, sorry I forget what it is called, should have remained locked if it were a suicide. and that the shell casing should not have exited if it were a suicide. Maybe that will make sense to someone with more gun knowledge than my own.

Greetings Everyone,

I agree, it is a long shot. Maybe about 1%, but Dermot I think would be intelligent enough to arrange this and to have someone pick him up. However, what do you guys think if that 1% were true, why leave his boots and jacket behind? If he really arranged to have someone pick him up on a river vessel or something, why leave evidence behind? Doing so would just create more speculation. I wonder if this long shot is true, and it is imo EXTREMELY UNLIKELY, but I agree the ONLY way possible that he could still be out there. Why not just hope a barge and leave to wherever Dermot planned to go?

I am still contemplating items that may have been found as evidence. Anything in Dermot's room, diary journals, writings? Did he confide in moods and thoughts to anyone before he left? We would have to have some form of evidence that gave us clues leading up to that day about Dermot's moods and actions.

On that 1% possibility of Dermot being picked up, someone or several someones would also have to been on "The Plan." It would be hard for me to fathom that they would keep this secret for 40 years! We don't have any evidence of other missing people in that same area on the day Dermot vanished.

The Kelly's phone records as evidence would be an interesting starting point if Dermot had planned this. However, I keep coming back to Dermot's statement three days before leaving, "I intend to make a new life on my own, and do it entirely on my own." There are several ways to interpret that statement:

1.) It could mean seeking independence and leaving the family behind, which research on the case shows, that the family did not want suicide discussed. They could have taken Dermot's quote and channeled it into a therapeutic search for him. Give the family hope, because the very thought of Dermot taking his own life, would horrify his siblings for the rest of their lives. And since Dermot's body was never found, they thought he ran away to join the hippie movement, or at least that is what the parents reported to the media, until his father had him declared legally dead in 1992. I believe his Mother never accepted the possibility of Dermot's death, and this may have been the feelings shared by his siblings.

2.) Dermot's quote could also mean a planned suicide using the target shooting story as a way to distance himself from the rest of the family. Levels of success and expectations for the Kelly children as previously discussed, may have weighed very heavily on Dermot for YEARS. Sadly, if there was abuse in the Kelly home, this could have taken such a devastating toll for this sensitive and troubled teen, that he just could not take it anymore.

3.) Or Dermot's quote was a future plan that never surfaced and he succumbed to the weather and hypothermia. Very possible that he could have gone to the woods for target shooting as a way to meditate, and while lost in thought, was oblivious to the bitter cold and either accidentally or unintentionally drowned because his thought process became short-circuited because of hypothermia. Could the hypothermia in of itself caused Dermot to shoot himself? and/or drown? That is very strong evidence.

Speculation is that Dermot HAD gone target shooting before, because there did not seem to be concern until Dermot had been gone for almost two hours. I don't think that this was something new where Dermot just decided "Oh, I think I'll do something different and go target shooting today." In wooded areas like that, kids do a lot of target shooting, and maybe it was not windy and the sun may have been out that day, so Dermot maybe had no idea how cold it was. Many people, especially teens, do not dress appropriately for bad weather.

This case is both sad and fascinating to study!

Satch

 

[marie-chantal]

This is a stupid question, but were there ever any mentions of tracks on the opposite side of the river? Could he have crossed the river?

I'm not too familiar with this river, but I do know that it feeds into the Mississippi (or it branches off of the MS). If it's anything like the MS, it could have been possible to swim across it on a very, very calm day. In Jan, the water would be frozen in parts, but I doubt that it was frozen completely solid. It wouldn't have been moving fast since the thaws most likely hadn't happened yet. If he somehow managed to survive very freezing water, then there is a chance that he got across the river.

 

[SoBeCzar]

I found a guy in facebook with the same name that lives in Australia that to me looks like the age progression picture. I don't know if I am allowed to post the link here. Don't know his age and it probably isnt Dermot but it might be worth a look.