IL IL - Judith Anderson, 15, Chicago, 16 Aug 1957

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It's quite a stretch but this case has recently been mentioned in connection with the Torso murders from Cleveland, mostly from the 1930s. There are some similarities but also some glaring differences.
 
It's quite a stretch but this case has recently been mentioned in connection with the Torso murders from Cleveland, mostly from the 1930s. There are some similarities but also some glaring differences.

I admit it's a stretch. I think the answer is within the friends house the night Judith disappeared. The two boys who were at the house that evening may now, after time, if they weren't involved tell a different story.
Also the police were curios as to why the perp disected Judith and didn't just dispose of her in a more simple way. But, as some poster said it might have added to the thrill.
 
No one's posted in this one for a while. Just read some of the posts. I think the detectives in Chicago were probably pretty good, and tough. If someone molested someone when they were a 14 or whatever, that's not good at all but it's a far cry from chopping someone up, putting them in buckets and floating them out into the harbor. Anyway, I know on this case detectives from the city cast a wide net, far more people than appeared in news stories were investigated, and some of them had M.O.'s on par with the crime.
 
I don't think that is it is a huge jump from molestation to murder. Happens all the time.
 
I'm not saying those two things, as well as many other things plus murder, haven't gone hand and hand. But people who commit murder often have a history of violence in their past along with whatever else is there. So you can't just say "molestation" or "alcoholism," or whatever and imply that that's a hair from murder. Violent assault? That's closer. Plus, in this specific case, it's a very rare type of murder, dismemberment and dumping of the body parts in a high traffic area (unlike most bodies, which are left in areas that are the exact opposite kinds of places.) This kind of crime has extreme violence written all over it. Most cases like this, M.O. wise, back in the 50s, were mafia crimes.
 
What I don't get is why her parents let her hang around a family in which a son caught a molestation case
 
Hm. Here's some thoughts.

- The ammo was old. I think this is significant - as it was said the ammo was so extremely old as to be degraded. I think it would be worthwhile looking into the nature of gunpowder and how it degrades, timespans, conditions..

That the ammunition used was degraded implies that this was not a murder committed by somebody who had easy access to new ammunition - and perhaps wasn't very familiar with using guns (because iirc - isn't old ammo quite dangerous to use?)

- The sealing of the barrel is a big deal. As another stated, it's unusual and takes somebody with knowledge of how to do that. Plus, the equipment. Plus an area to do it in.

- My thoughts on the dismemberment are that it was a first-time attempt that didn't go as planned. They cut her body up (in a very amateurish way, as reported) and stuffed it in a barrel.. but there were parts leftover. Rather than sealing those in a barrel, too.. they simply put them in a bucket. Did they not have time? Were they getting sick, at that point, and just wanted her remains gone?

I would imagine that people unfamiliar with disposing of bodies might think a barrel weighted down with a body might sink. They sealed it, so it was secure and 'hidden', but perhaps didn't take into account that it would have air trapped in it and float..

The old ammo, the bucket of leftover parts, the floating barrel, the inexpert dismemberment.. it all says to me inexperienced killers panicking about body disposal and coming up with a slightly harebrained scheme to put the body in a barrel and dump it, perhaps to make it look like a 'hit' or a Torse murder, perhaps just because they were inexperienced..

She wasn't raped, as far as anyone can tell. Plus a number of bullet wounds to the back of the head - execution style killing. Who'd want to execute a 15 year old girl with elderly ammunition? Someone with a gun handy, who held a very large grudge, is my guess.

Yup, that family acted strangely. Very strangely. I'm inclined to scrutinise them and their actions and comments.

I'm also thinking how odd it was that Kenneth the boyfriend had two girls on the hop - and they were BOTH with him at the same time? He was obviously not very mature (changing his idea about who to marry at the drop of a hat) -- and there was another girl, who might have been extremely jealous.

Just looking at that as an obvious motive. If Ken was a sailor, would he not know how to seal a barrel? And not being a very strong-minded person, might he have been part of a conspiracy to murder?

That's another situation I'd look into.


As for Nick-the-child-molester... Up front, I'll say I loathe pedos. The end. BUT. Kids who molest other kids are not always but usually victims of molestation themselves. Nick was young when he committed that crime against another male child. That does not automatically translate to his a/ being a habitual predatory pedo and b/ being likely to rape a female his own age, in my mind.

And because he molested a boy, maybe nobody (back then) was too concerned he'd molest girls. Views on homosexuality tended to be very very black and white, and pedos were even less understood than they are now. I was recently reading an article by a woman who grew up in the era and didn't know what a homosexual -was- until she went to college.

That doesn't mean he didn't have poor impulse control, or may not have had it in him to kill - but I really am not focussing on this being a sex crime perpetrated by him.. I'd rather focus on the ammo and the barrel, and who says what about who was where..
 
By old gunpowder, do you mean black powder rather than the smokeless powder that is used in modern ammunition? Smokeless powder has been predominant since the 1890s but black powder ammunition is still made today mostly for antique guns that may not be able to handle the greater explosive force of the modern propellant.
 
Oh - what's also interesting is the pathologist's findings... that Judith may have been "held" (ie, alive) for 6-8 hours before her death. I'm assuming this is based on her stomach contents? There was no mention of how they came to that conclusion, but it'd be good to know..

Also, that her body was stored for a couple of days before being cut up and disposed of.

Stan, all I could find on the ammo so far was that it was reported in the papers as being 'old' - papers are not the most reliable sources. I'd really like to know what was said by investigators on that.

Re-reading the info on the barrel and container used .. this was somebody with access to some place of business to do with machines and metalworking, for sure. They had to have both time and privacy to put Judith's body parts in that barrel, cut it and seal it, and the smaller barrel as well - so probably 'worked late' one night.

If the body was indeed stored for a couple of days... this might mean the killer was waiting for an opportunity to dispose of her body, maybe looking for a period of time to use the equipment for the barrels, or just time they could account for with a lie.

Why not just put her body right in the lake, though? Why was it important to the killer to have her cut up and sealed in the two containers, before disposing of them? What could possibly have been achieved by them doing that?
 
Putting a body, or body parts, into something opaque rather than not would allow one not to instantly be seen transporting or disposing of a body or its parts.

It's a theory that the killer thought the barrel would sink soon after being dropped into the water. After all of his work to contain the parts, let alone cut her up, he may have wanted recognition for his twisted crime and mechanical handiwork.

Especially considering he chose to dispose of it the body an area frequented by many people. I don't get the delay. Unless he had access to refrigeration, decomposition that time of year would start soon. The stench would be a risk.

The old ammo is very interesting. Could it have been taken from an old timer who had old war memorabilia? I don't guess it was anyone who knew her or a grudge thing. Random angry psycho cruising the city from anywhere is my vote.

Chicago probably had good homicide detectives then but the police dept. was utterly corrupt until '60. Amazing the public was right their as they recovered this stuff. The stench must have been horrendous. Today one wouldn't be allowed within blocks of there.
 
Good points!

I do tend to lean to a local person though, somebody inexperienced with murder but also not terribly fazed by it. I mean -- could you cut up a dead girl's body? I know I darned well couldn't, and I am not exactly squeamish. It takes.. I guess, a certain hardcore mind set to hack a body to pieces rather than roll it in some sheets and throw it in the lake. Maybe somebody military? I can see why they thought 'medical student' at first (but the pathologists said it was not anyone who had clue 1 what they were doing, so that's doubtful)... And I am betting the delay was because they could not risk the time out to handle her body with no good reason for the missing time.

Good thoughts, on why the barrels. Maybe it wasn't unusual for them to be seen with barrels in their vehicle.. so nobody would question it, business as usual.

Somebody desensitised enough to handle a gruesome task like that but who wasn't experienced with cutting up bodies, who worked in an industry concerned with heavy machinery/steel, who had access to private time in a garage/shop/factory space, and who was probably local - seeing as Judith was a local girl, and her body dumped locally. So far, that my best bet as to who may have handled her body.

As for her death - if the ammo was indeed old, maybe somebody grabbed their dad's old gun... She was not raped, was shot in the head, execution style.. says to me they just wanted her 'gone', not suffering.

My feeling is she 'upset' somebody pretty badly, maybe posed a threat. Rivalry for one of those boys she rode around with, or Kenneth.. or she knew too much about something..

Just, everything says to me her killer knew her.
 
Short of mafia guys working on orders and with the belief that hacking a body up would lessen their chances of being caught, the dismemberment, metal work and risk taken when disposing of this body to me means psycho. I could see a spurned love interest removing head and hands in an effort to make I.D. difficult, but cramming body parts in cans and dumping them in plain sight, IMHO, is a psycho who wants recognition and may also be into it for a bit of risk.
 
I just reread the account of the case in Getting Away With Murder and the authors do seem to make a pretty good case against Barry Zander Cook. He would be 76 if still living.

Was it really 3/4 mile (20 minutes walk) between the girls' homes? That's quite a distance for anyone to be walking alone in the middle of the night, not to mention a 15 y/o girl. The Grimes Sisters Case was less than 8 months previous. What were they thinking?
 
There are dozens of books with that title. Which one are you speaking of?
 
By Ed Baumann and John O'Brien - Bonus Books, Inc. 1991
 
Not saying you're wrong, Winward.. I do hope for the sake of potential other victims you are, though! Yes, I can see this being a psycho, too. It's really worth looking at from that angle, considering that there were a few of those getting about the place at the time..

But I'm also considering the angle that the floating barrels at the edge of the lake were amateurish.. like the dismemberment. Crafty thinking, but with lack of experience. I really think it's possible they thought the barrels would sink, and could have been too nervous to travel further than they did with a body in the vehicle.
 
Yes, I certainly was not maintaining I'm certain the guy knew the barrels wouldn't float. Dumping them where he did, though, that water isn't very deep. Maybe a dozen feet, depending on the lake level, and maybe as shallow as 9 or so. The lake back then wasn't as clear as it is now, but on a sunny day at that depth one could see what was on the bottom in cases like this. So, even if they sank they wouldn't have been very hard to spot.
 
That's good to know, Winward, details like that make all the difference sometimes!
 

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