IL - Lt. Charles 'Joe' Gliniewicz, 52, found dead, Fox Lake, 1 Sep 2015 - #5

[katydid23]

No there is not a difference. None. He was being removed whether because he was retiring or because he was being forced to retire or because of something else.

So then you are saying there is no difference between being removed as the leader of a program because of retirement vs. being removed because of theft ? Same thing to you?

 

[vestigare]

I don't see why he could not continue to mentor, unless to do that he had to still be employed by the FLPD. He started (as far as I know) looking for work elsewhere back in the spring, so if continuing to mentor Post 300 was an issue back then, why did he not ask about his ability to mentor back when he was looking at leaving Fox Lake? Then, he did not get the jobs that he applied for, so he was thinking about retiring, but had done nothing about it formally, and did not discuss the issue of his relationship with Explorers until Aug 31? He as the Leader and Mentor, really owed it to the kids to secure a smooth transition of leadership, in my opinion. JMO

That is the huge red flag for me. He could continue to mentor so I don't know why he would be worried if he set up for his successor and knew he was still going to be there as a mentor.

It leads me to believe he was not even going to be asked to mentor once he retired and could no longer be leader.

It also makes me think there is something up when all his co workers don't step forward to keep his pet project going after his death?.

 

[Cubby]

He had plenty of time to make those preparations. And for all we know, he had already begun talking to others about that. He had spoken to the mayor about it the day before.

He might have had time to make the preperations, but clearly there isn't anyone to run it today with Lt.CG gone.

 

[night train]

True.
I estimate about 1300-1400 feet.

True.

Only, he (the LT) didn't initiate the backup. The dispatcher did and the Lt was even hesitant for dispatch to send them.

If your theory was correct and according to the time line of the radio traffic, the LT was in his car, when the trio came into site walking towards him. And, according to the aerial maps, they would have been about 1300 to 1400 feet apart (min.) That's quite a distance for them to be apart on foot.

When I listen to what the LT said on the radio, there was three minutes between the time that the LT said he was going to be out of his vehicle and his next transmission that said they were going into the woods.

No sound of the LT running towards them to close that distance. Just a casual subdued tone with no urgency to send backup.

Aligning all this with your theory. . . What do you propose the suspects and the LT were actually doing for those three minutes?

Chuz- Thank You for reaching back to my question from the previous thread,I'm trying to piece a few different things together.

Field Of View/Line Of Sight:
I want to drill deeper into your evaluation of field of view/line of sight.Utilizing Google Street View looking Eastward from the location of Lt.Gliniewicz's patrol car down Honing it appears that with the trees closely lining both sides of the road neither the Lt. or the trio would see each other until the three had almost completely rounded the sharp curve.Using Steelman's location map and keeping in mind that the corner of the box that indicates where Lt.Joe's body was found is known to be about 500 feet away from his car,I estimate that they would only been approximately 600 feet (2 Football Fields) apart before seeing each other.

Time:
Lt. Gliniewicz - Radioed in saying he was going to be out at the old cement plant checking the 2MW,1 MB trio he described,but we don't really know when he stepped out of his patrol car.How do we know that he stepped out of his car immediately? Why wouldn't he observe them from his patrol car for almost 3 minutes?

The trio's limited options were to continue walking towards him,stand around nonchalantly as if they had nothing to hide or take off towards the swamp.Of course they could have run immediately (I'll discuss why they didn't later)

It's possible that the 3 didn't flee until Lt.Gliniewicz exited his patrol car,followed by the LT's "They took off towards the swamp" radio transmission.

 

[katydid23]

I don't see why he could not continue to mentor, unless to do that he had to still be employed by the FLPD. He started (as far as I know) looking for work elsewhere back in the spring, so if continuing to mentor Post 300 was an issue back then, why did he not ask about his ability to mentor back when he was looking at leaving Fox Lake? Then, he did not get the jobs that he applied for, so he was thinking about retiring, but had done nothing about it formally, and did not discuss the issue of his relationship with Explorers until Aug 31? He as the Leader and Mentor, really owed it to the kids to secure a smooth transition of leadership, in my opinion. JMO

But we do not know if he did or did not look into that issue. All we are going on is one snippet of what the mayor said. Maybe Lt G had spoken to the boy scouts about their charter or had spoken to the other co-leaders abut how to proceed. Or to the chief before he left or to the leaders of similar programs to find out how to proceed. We really do not know what he had done so far. it seems unfair to publicly claim that he was negligent/shady/careless without having any evidence of that. JMO

ETA:
Also, maybe he was hoping to become the new chief in FL, and so he would be able to continue on.

 

[vestigare]

A good leader ALWAYS has plans for the day he is not going to be there whether he thinks that day will be tomorrow or ten years from now.

You are the leader and your entire job is the continued success of the team.

Perhaps Joe's lack of forethought is one of the reasons he didn't get the various chief positions.

 

[katydid23]

Ultimately there IS a difference, but if there is a big leadership hole in the program, it probably is not due to someones retiring, more likely, that it is due to someone abruptly being removed. JMO.......

Right. But he said there was no difference. And I believe there is a big difference when speaking of someone and their legacy. JMO

 

[bluesneakers]

Ultimately there IS a difference, but if there is a big leadership hole in the program, it probably is not due to someones retiring, more likely, that it is due to someone abruptly being removed. JMO.......

Abruptly is the key word, I think, so if he made the decision himself to leave* or was being removed or didn't get a job he was hoping to get, whatever it was, it resulted in having to quickly figure out who would take over and there was no one there ready to step in.

*This would mean he'd made the decision to retire abruptly too, and hadn't been planning it for months.

 

[katydid23]

A good leader ALWAYS has plans for the day he is not going to be there whether he thinks that day will be tomorrow or ten years from now.

You are the leader and your entire job is the continued success of the team.

Perhaps Joe's lack of forethought is one of the reasons he didn't get the various chief positions.

True. maybe he had a lack of forethought.

I just think it is a bit premature to assume that the reason a program is dropped or unfunded after the leader dies, is because that leader was a thief or shady.

High School programs depend upon volunteers to step up. it is quite common for the program to die a quick death f the main leader retires or transfers. Everyone has their own pet projects. But that does not mean the program was not well run and that the leader was not good at their job.

 

[vestigare]

I never once said he was a thief. I don't think that was his problem at all.

True. maybe he had a lack of forethought.

I just think it is a bit premature to assume that the reason a program is dropped or unfunded after the leader dies, is because that leader was a thief or shady.

High School programs depend upon volunteers to step up. it is quite common for the program to die a quick death f the main leader retires or transfers. Everyone has their own pet projects. But that does not mean the program was not well run and that the leader was not good at their job.

 

[Tillicum]

Right. But he said there was no difference. And I believe there is a big difference when speaking of someone and their legacy. JMO

I think the term "removed" gives the impression that it was out of Lt CG's hands. That he had no choice in the matter and possibly the result of a negative action. Whether or not that was how it was intended, that's how it came across to me. JMO

 

[bluesneakers]

True. maybe he had a lack of forethought.

I just think it is a bit premature to assume that the reason a program is dropped or unfunded after the leader dies, is because that leader was a thief or shady.

High School programs depend upon volunteers to step up. it is quite common for the program to die a quick death f the main leader retires or transfers. Everyone has their own pet projects. But that does not mean the program was not well run and that the leader was not good at their job.

If a program was simply dying a quick death because the leader was leaving there would be no need for a special review. It would just be over.

 

[vestigare]

Behan had no plans to retire until Aug 27. There is no way Joe thought Behan was retiring before he started applying for other jobs.

Didnt he just find out that he was not going to replace the chief at Fox lake? Maybe he was waiting to see about that before he made final plans for the program.

And I thought Federly was next in line. Maybe he thought Federly was going to step up?

 

[cady]

Right. But he said there was no difference. And I believe there is a big difference when speaking of someone and their legacy. JMO

There is no difference in the gaping hole created, in terms of the viability of the Explorers. And this is really nibbling at semantics....the question is why is Gliniewicz dead? JMO..............there is some reason behind it....we may not see the reasoning, but somebody did.

 

[katydid23]

Behan had no plans to retire until Aug 27. There is no way Joe thought Behan was retiring before he started applying for other jobs.

So? Don't people usually send out applications for a bunch of jobs?

 

[vestigare]

There is no difference in the gaping hole created, in terms of the viability of the Explorers. And this is really nibbling at semantics....the question is why is Gliniewicz dead? JMO..............there is some reason behind it....we may not see the reasoning, but somebody did.

Exactly. Why the hole? What precipitated this.

 

[katydid23]

If a program was simply dying a quick death because the leader was leaving there would be no need for a special review. It would just be over.

No, not necessarily. There is a lot of red tape. They are doing it step by step. Taking investors, going over the books. Looking at the need and the success or failure rate.

Did it help the kids? Did it create any future employees?

 

[vestigare]

So? Don't people usually send out applications for a bunch of jobs?

what does that have to do with any ofof what your said?

 

[katydid23]

I never once said he was a thief. I don't think that was his problem at all.

OK. That is the impression I got because it is being said that the investigation and the inventory is so frightening for him that he had no way out but suicide. Sounds ominous and what else is an inventory going to find but fraud or theft?

 

[vestigare]

No, not necessarily. There is a lot of red tape. They are doing it step by step. Taking investors, going over the books. Looking at the need and the success or failure rate.

Did it help the kids? Did it create any future employees?

And why would they need to do that now if Joe was doing all that all along?