Illegal/Underground Adoption Theories and leads

[vjlaw]

Just wondering if anyone knows and if it doesn't go here, my apologies... If LE made contact with EJ on Dec 27 telling her to bring Gabriel in to verify his safety, how exactly did they make that contact? Her cell phone? Some other way? I thought she left her cell phone in TX so I'm assuming contact was made before she got on the bus but, if not, how did all that play out? If they knew where she was, why didn't they grab her then? If contact was via a cell phone, then didn't that at least narrow down a region?

Just working it out in my head , since there are some missing days in her travel schedule between SA and Miami, is it possible she bought a ticket and boarded a bus headed east then got off to travel a different direction and ultimately boarded a separate bus to finally end up eastas the original ticket suggested? If so, the cell phone could help determine her itinerary.

I have wondered about the questions about the call from LE also. I also wonder why EJ would answer the phone at that point.

 

[Bforster]

Just wondering if anyone knows and if it doesn't go here, my apologies... If LE made contact with EJ on Dec 27 telling her to bring Gabriel in to verify his safety, how exactly did they make that contact? Her cell phone? Some other way? I thought she left her cell phone in TX so I'm assuming contact was made before she got on the bus but, if not, how did all that play out? If they knew where she was, why didn't they grab her then? If contact was via a cell phone, then didn't that at least narrow down a region?

Just working it out in my head , since there are some missing days in her travel schedule between SA and Miami, is it possible she bought a ticket and boarded a bus headed east then got off to travel a different direction and ultimately boarded a separate bus to finally end up eastas the original ticket suggested? If so, the cell phone could help determine her itinerary.

Can you imagine that call???
LE: Hi Liz this is officer Joe, I understand that your mad at your ex and he is calling here complaining about it so if you wouldnt mind could you take the little guy home... I have a ton of other things to get to
Liz: Oh sure officer Joe, My friend TS set that up for me! Be right there!!!

 

[BeanE]

Can you imagine that call???
LE: Hi Liz this is officer Joe, I understand that your mad at your ex and he is calling here complaining about it so if you wouldnt mind could you take the little guy home... I have a ton of other things to get to
Liz: Oh sure officer Joe, My friend TS set that up for me! Be right there!!!

I think it would have been more like:

LE: Miss Johnson, this is officer Joe. We have a recording of your call stating that you killed your child. This is a very serious situation. We need you to immediately confirm for us that Gabe is alive by taking him to the nearest police station, hospital, or fire station, and have them call me to confirm he's okay.

That's all we want, Miss Johnson, to know that Gabe is okay, because of your statements. You won't get in trouble. You can just walk in, show somebody your baby, hand them my phone number, and walk right out again before they even call me.

Can I count on you to do that for me right now, Miss Johnson?

Elizabeth: (long pause) um... no. (click) (jumps in car, drives to bus station, asks for a ticket on whatever bus is leaving next)

 

[chell]

Or perhaps it was a female LE officer making the call and that is the conversation the babysitter overheard with a female yelling at EJ and EJ saying "what do you want me to do, bring him back?"

 

[BeanE]

Or perhaps it was a female LE officer making the call and that is the conversation the babysitter overheard with a female yelling at EJ and EJ saying "what do you want me to do, bring him back?"

The LE phone call was on Dec 27. The babysitter was at the hotel on Dec 23.

 

[Prof]

This is off topic for this thread IMO but it was a female officer who called EJ on the 27th -- It's been stated in the news before and it is on the charging documents for both EJ and TS
--On 12/27/09, T.P.D. Sergeant L. Lenzen contacted Elizabeth via telephone. Elizabeth was instructed to make contact with Texas Law Enforcement in order to confirm that Gabriel was alive and safe. Elizabeth refused http://www.kpho.com/download/2010/0203/22416309.pdf


As far as illegal adoptions -- I found a snip in this report interesting --

http://www.kpho.com/news/22513797/detail.html

"Just one day after receiving word that their own investigating is stirring up a hornet's nest in the world of illegal underground adoptions, someone broke into the truck Gabriel's father, Logan McQueary, was using. "

BBM -- did I miss this news of Logan's family stirring up a hornet's nest? Is this simply refering to the news from that adoption expert used by the FBI that the Homegate is used by adoption agencies to set up parents who are giving up their babies for adoption?

I think it is important to note on this thread that just because an adoption agency will accomodate an out of town or out of state visitor, does not mean that it is an illegal adoption agency --

Perhaps I missed some other lead or news on these illegal underground adoption agencies?

As far as only the GPS being stolen, I think it is weird, but I can't imagine that an underground adoption agency is stalking Logan --

 

[Gin]

This is off topic for this thread IMO but it was a female officer who called EJ on the 27th -- It's been stated in the news before and it is on the charging documents for both EJ and TS
--On 12/27/09, T.P.D. Sergeant L. Lenzen contacted Elizabeth via telephone. Elizabeth was instructed to make contact with Texas Law Enforcement in order to confirm that Gabriel was alive and safe. Elizabeth refused http://www.kpho.com/download/2010/0203/22416309.pdf


As far as illegal adoptions -- I found a snip in this report interesting --

http://www.kpho.com/news/22513797/detail.html

"Just one day after receiving word that their own investigating is stirring up a hornet's nest in the world of illegal underground adoptions, someone broke into the truck Gabriel's father, Logan McQueary, was using. "

BBM -- did I miss this news of Logan's family stirring up a hornet's nest? Is this simply refering to the news from that adoption expert used by the FBI that the Homegate is used by adoption agencies to set up parents who are giving up their babies for adoption?

I think it is important to note on this thread that just because an adoption agency will accomodate an out of town or out of state visitor, does not mean that it is an illegal adoption agency --

Perhaps I missed some other lead or news on these illegal underground adoption agencies?

As far as only the GPS being stolen, I think it is weird, but I can't imagine that an underground adoption agency is stalking Logan --

Well, when I combine laws that are very unfavorable to fathers, a "reputable" long standing adoption agency that has online FAQ's riddled with half answers that appear amazingly shady, the hotel connections that keep popping up, and then the break in....I'm not willing to ignore any possibility.
We may yet find there is a boatload of money changing hands in Texas in illegal adoptions/kidnappings.

 

[Prof]

I am not willing to ignore any possibility either, and I have been diving into researching the condition of adoption in general here in the US for the last month or so -- previous to this case, I knew there were sketchy practices involving unwed teenage mothers, but I really was clueless to the ability to strip a natural father of his rights, using the court system! So it is it illegal? or legal in such cases? IT is surely unethical and immoral, but from what I have read, these agencies are using the current laws to their advantage (many businesses do this?), and it is the laws that need to be changed

I just wanted to reiterate that legitimate agencies who do not get involved in sketchy circumstances, may use hotels and public or private parks -- I did find another agency in SA (and there is a long list there) who lists events in the Raymond Russell park (which is another hinky coincidence since Tammi is connected to the information that EJ gave Gabriel away there in the first place)

There are also women's shelters who provide up to 5 days lodging vouchers for hotels to women with children running from abusive spouses

On a slightly different note, on Gabriel's page, I have seen disparaging remarks about the other park ---Six Flags in a known supporter of foundations who help children, and many adoption organizations -- including one connected to Wendy's, whose founder was an adopted child -- If Elizabeth had been taped in Wendy's would we have been calling Dave out as being connected to illegal adoptions? hmmn he does use the motto "Do what's best for the child"

In my attempt to separate the unethical practices in adoption from those who do good work, I have emailed Gabriel's poster to a long list of those who are involved in or oversee legal adoption in TX, to include those who work for government agencies such as CPS and DHS, adoption lawyers, and reputable adoption agencies -- just thought someone somewhere in Texas with knowledge in this "industry" might have some tips or suggestions for LE

 

[shufly]

I agree very much with kissdegirl's theory in the main thread. I really think someone is hiding little Gabriel and TS is behind the whole thing with the plans of getting Gabe for herself in the end. The one piece I can't quite fit in though is how did she really think she would get away with all of this? How in the world could she see herself getting custody after all of this? There are still a lot of questions in this theory, but I'm sticking to it.[/QUOTE

]

January, I agree with you. I have always thought TS was behind this. As far as getting away with it, I don't think she counted on EJ contacting LM and that's where her plan blew up. The only hole I have with this theory though is why isn't EJ spilling the beans on TS?

 

[Prof]

Perhaps EJ feels that if she stalls long enough her purpose will be fulfilled -- Logan will never see Gabriel again, and she knows they cannot prove her guilty in a case of murder

She knows that if she spills on TS, they will find the missing link to the underground adoption, and find Gabriel eventually -- that would get Gabriel back to Logan, which she stubornly does not want

Perhaps she is waiting for a promise of less than 20 years before she spills anything?

IMO and IDK

 

[shufly]

My reasons for believing in an illegal adoption are simple. If she wanted to kill him, he would have died in Tempe.[/QUOTE

]

I agree. Besides, if she had killed him in Tempe, it would have made traveling wherever she was going a lot easier and a less expensive. Like they say, the simplest answer is usually the right answer.

 

[Kamille]

Just wondering if anyone knows what happens to the child's legal birth certificate and other identification in the case of these "adoptions". Would she hand it over to the agency? Is LE in possession of any of Gabriel's legal identification? Was it found with EJ or back home at the trailer? I believe TPS claimed to have had it at some point when she was "babysitting" him for those 9 days.

I still find it very odd that a baby named Gabriel was adopted out to a couple in WI via San Antonio during the same time period that our Gabriel went missing. Especially since that baby was apparently 15 days old when they adopted him and the couple picked him up on New Years Day. Now I don't know about how legal adoption agencies work but would they be placing children on a national holiday? Since the baby was obviously already somewhere for the first 15 days of his life, why the need to place him on a national holiday? They couldn't wait until the Monday? Do the people who work at these agencies have to work 365 days a year to accomodate these legal adoptions? I honestly don't know how it works and whether they have to because of the nature of the business and the unpredictability of when a child would be available? And I know that it is not the same baby but would a "shady" agency be playing around with names and birth dates on legal birth certificates to try to muddy the waters?

And of course the obvious question. I believe someone found the agency that Beth adopted her Gabriel from. Do they have an office in WI? How would a couple in WI have found a legitimate agency in San Antonio to accomodate their request for a newborn caucasian child? You would think there might be a waiting list in Texas for a potential adoptive couple. Is there a national register or is it state by state? How does an adoption agency in San Antonio make the call that a child that has been placed for adoption in their state should go to a couple from WI? :waitasec:

 

[chell]

I thought I had read somewhere that the date(s) the babysitter was with Gabriel were not completely firm. Wasn't there some confusion as to whether it was the 23rd or the 27th?

 

[Kamille]

I thought I had read somewhere that the date(s) the babysitter was with Gabriel were not completely firm. Wasn't there some confusion as to whether it was the 23rd or the 27th?

The confusion is between the dates of the 19th thru 23rd. The babysitter was pretty vague about when EJ contacted her and when she actually babysat when she appeared on NG. NG was offering up her own skewed version of the events to the babysitter who just kept agreeing with everything NG said and NG offered up the dates of the 19th or 20th. From what we know now, EJ probably wasn't even at the Homegate on either of those days so we are going with the housekeeping eyewitness who claims that is was the 23rd.

The 27th was never a possibility.

 

[not_my_kids]

I thought I had read somewhere that the date(s) the babysitter was with Gabriel were not completely firm. Wasn't there some confusion as to whether it was the 23rd or the 27th?

The 27th, AFAIK, noone saw Gabe, only EJ, ditching the car and getting on the bus. The only confusion I have seen is that the babysitter was not sure if it was the 21st, 22nd or 23rd. I think it was confirmed through a member of the housekeeping that the babysitter was there the 23rd.
I repeat, I think.

 

[chell]

Thanks! I'm having trouble keeping it all straight in my head at this point!

 

[Prof]

Kamille, good questions --IF Logan is name on the BC, would she give that to the agency in TX?

I don't think there is a national registry, but these agencies seem to work in multiple states, my guess in the states with laws that suit their purpose

I suppose interstate adoption is like international adoption in the way it works? I do know that one of the agencies in SA is accused by a natural father of being involved in a case where a child who came from one state to TX to be put up for adoption by his mother and ended up in a third state-- I posted the link a page or two back


I was just looking through the state statuses on adoption law in TX again --

It is possible that Gabriel is still in TX since that is where EJ took him -- and it is possible for whomever has him to wait until he is 2 years old to start the adoption process

I searched for specifics related IMO to this case here

http://www.childwelfare.gov/systemw...e/index.cfm?event=stateStatutes.processSearch

 

[Bforster]

I think it would have been more like:

LE: Miss Johnson, this is officer Joe. We have a recording of your call stating that you killed your child. This is a very serious situation. We need you to immediately confirm for us that Gabe is alive by taking him to the nearest police station, hospital, or fire station, and have them call me to confirm he's okay.

That's all we want, Miss Johnson, to know that Gabe is okay, because of your statements. You won't get in trouble. You can just walk in, show somebody your baby, hand them my phone number, and walk right out again before they even call me.

Can I count on you to do that for me right now, Miss Johnson?

Elizabeth: (long pause) um... no. (click) (jumps in car, drives to bus station, asks for a ticket on whatever bus is leaving next)

LOL however the call went LE should have taken custody right then and there! I feel that LE needed to be more proactive since day one of this whole mess... anytime someone goes to LE with a tex message or tape call like Logan got LE should be proactive and not take the wait and see attitude.. I'm very dissappointed in the way this has been handled from day 1

 

[impatientredhead]

My reasons for believing in an illegal adoption are simple. If she wanted to kill him, he would have died in Tempe.[/QUOTE

I agree. Besides, if she had killed him in Tempe, it would have made traveling wherever she was going a lot easier and a less expensive. Like they say, the simplest answer is usually the right answer.

Unless she went to Tx with the intent of an adoption, TS clearly thought she could manipulate the paperwork, and then when Logan refused to sign and the paperwork manipulation didn't work either she had a rage episode followed by the text message.

 

[mindypin]

I agree, although I don't know how long EJ would have had to "live" in TX to establish residency there and have the TX adoption laws apply. There is a legal thread I could post this question to, but I'm sure it's not a week. IMO, I don't know how an adoption involving this case could ever be considered "legall l .

The subject would have to reside in Texas six months for the family court to have jurisdiction. I'm not a lawyer,but I have experience in the family court system.