Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #156

[Yvettea]

Actually, Abby and Libby were identified as best friends. And they were both athletic.

This is a good article.

Delphi Daughters: Untold story of Abby & Libby

Abby & Libby had a bond stronger than most, one that, even in the face of the ultimate fear, wasn't broken.

www.wrtv.com

Well I certainly had forgotten things as we’ve gone along. Thank you for correcting me and enlightening to their connection. It makes the crime even more tragic.

 

[Yvettea]

Delphi Daughters: Untold story of Abby & Libby

Abby & Libby had a bond stronger than most, one that, even in the face of the ultimate fear, wasn't broken.

www.wrtv.com

A very nice reminder of the girls.

 

[The Observer]

Also, that the murderer and the people who staged/posed were different.

RSBM.

You know this is an interesting thought and brings numerous things to mind.

This is a transcript of Down The Hill Podcast interview with Robert Ives I'm certain everyone is familar with where he mentions the 3 signatures. I know we've all been over it before.

ROBERT IVES: I follow along with your example. The very first case I handled as a prosecuting attorney back in 1987…1988, a fellow shot his wife in Deer Creek Indiana. He pinned her up against the refrigerator, shot in the back of the head, she fell on the floor, he shot or twice more in the chest. So, you had a dead person with three bullets in them. They were dead. He was seen at the scene, you know, things like that. All I can say about the situation with Abby and Libby is that there was a lot more physical evidence than at that crime scene. And it’s probably not what you would imagine, or what people think that I’m talking about, it’s probably not. And so because of unique circumstances, which all unique circumstances of a crime are a sort-of ‘signature’, you think “Well, this unusual fact might lead to somebody, or that unusual fact might lead to somebody”. I wish I could tell you, but again that’s up to the State Police. There was nothing that seemed similarly identical that you think ‘well this is modus operandi’. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the term modus operandi, where sometimes criminals will use a…commit a crime in such a way where it’s so distinct that it acts as a sort of signature for them.

ANDREW: Was there a signature in his crime, like would you characterize something as a signature? Like, without telling us what it is.

ROBERT IVES: I would say there were two or three things. I’d say at least three.

If we also add to the mix the 'a lot more physical evidence', the 'waiting in the car', unknown car in carpark, KK and the CSAM pedo ring, Anthony_shots account logins, Allen being arrested 'in connection to the murders', the 'ongoing investigation' plus the 'tentacles' and so on.

The fact there was X amount of time between the murders and when the search started there is room for one to murder and flee and perhaps another perpetrator(s) to come 'enjoy' the scene (skin crawling stuff I know) and perhaps pose/stage them for their perverted enjoyment. Taking pics and/or souvenirs.

Maybe there's 'at least 3 signatures' because there were in fact different people who were at the scene within a short amount of time doing whatever they were doing.

Kline could well be lying to investigators about the phone and weapon in the Wabash River. But what if he's not.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

MOO, well RA has blue eyes, so if the murderer was accurately described as "not having blue eyes", then RA is obviously the wrong guy. It will be interesting to see what actual evidence they have on him (if they ever unseal the search warrant.) MOO

I might be the only person on the face of the earth that does not see blue eyes in any of RA’s pictures. They are gray or hazel or a light brown, but I do not see blue eyes.

 

[Snoop Sister]

Since RA admits he was on the bridge that day, he has covered finding his DNA on the bridge but not on the girls or at the scene of the killing or where they were found.

Do you have a link where he indicated he was on the bridge that dpay?

 

[Charlot123]

RSBM.

You know this is an interesting thought and brings numerous things to mind.

This is a transcript of Down The Hill Podcast interview with Robert Ives I'm certain everyone is familar with where he mentions the 3 signatures. I know we've all been over it before.

ROBERT IVES: I follow along with your example. The very first case I handled as a prosecuting attorney back in 1987…1988, a fellow shot his wife in Deer Creek Indiana. He pinned her up against the refrigerator, shot in the back of the head, she fell on the floor, he shot or twice more in the chest. So, you had a dead person with three bullets in them. They were dead. He was seen at the scene, you know, things like that. All I can say about the situation with Abby and Libby is that there was a lot more physical evidence than at that crime scene. And it’s probably not what you would imagine, or what people think that I’m talking about, it’s probably not. And so because of unique circumstances, which all unique circumstances of a crime are a sort-of ‘signature’, you think “Well, this unusual fact might lead to somebody, or that unusual fact might lead to somebody”. I wish I could tell you, but again that’s up to the State Police. There was nothing that seemed similarly identical that you think ‘well this is modus operandi’. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the term modus operandi, where sometimes criminals will use a…commit a crime in such a way where it’s so distinct that it acts as a sort of signature for them.

ANDREW: Was there a signature in his crime, like would you characterize something as a signature? Like, without telling us what it is.

ROBERT IVES: I would say there were two or three things. I’d say at least three.

If we also add to the mix the 'a lot more physical evidence', the 'waiting in the car', unknown car in carpark, KK and the CSAM pedo ring, Anthony_shots account logins, Allen being arrested 'in connection to the murders', the 'ongoing investigation' plus the 'tentacles' and so on.

The fact there was X amount of time between the murders and when the search started there is room for one to murder and flee and perhaps another perpetrator(s) to come 'enjoy' the scene (skin crawling stuff I know) and perhaps pose/stage them for their perverted enjoyment. Taking pics and/or souvenirs.

Maybe there's 'at least 3 signatures' because there were in fact different people who were at the scene within a short amount of time doing whatever they were doing.

Kline could well be lying to investigators about the phone and weapon in the Wabash River. But what if he's not.

Very detailed and logical post. I really enjoyed the fact that you, obviously, listened so attentively to the conversation with R. Ives and made so many notes “for yourself” at that time. I enjoyed him, too, but you are a more attentive, studious, even, listener that I am.

<modsnip: There is no MSM or other source that indicates anyone saw anything from a window.>

Another version - and it is totally unfounded, just an idea - is that it was a “group hunt”. This is where CSAM, KK waiting in the car, and the rest fits in. This would make the CS extremely complicated to read, even.

At one point, there was an intense discussion about the handedness of BG. Some believed he was left-handed. Imagine that, indeed, BG (and maybe, RA) is left-handed, but the wounds bespeak a right-handed person. How difficult would it make the interpretation of the situation? Or the opposite, RA being right-handed but the wounds indicating left-handedness would potentially exclude him from the initial circle of the suspects.

Another thing. Remember the picture by Brian Phillips? The painting of the BG made in jail.
That artist is gifted. Either he has great imagination and can recreate image seen on TV screen, or maybe, he made a portrait of someone. (Prisoners hear news, through own channels). But that someone doesn’t look like RA at all. The person is on the shorter side and agile, but lean.

Anyhow, just some thoughts. Purely my own ideas, JMO.

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

Since RA admits he was on the bridge that day, he has covered finding his DNA on the bridge but not on the girls or at the scene of the killing or where they were found.

I can't imagine what part of the bridge would be swabbed for DNA or wood sample taken for DNA testing, unless there is a visible sample of body fluid/excretion/hair, etc. Unless you fall down, I think it is highly unlikely that one's body/bare skin/clothing would make contact with that bridge.

 

[Charlot123]

On the Down the Hill podcast Robert Ives discussed how difficult the technological aspects of this case had been (leading me to think that LE’s ignorance of technology was the main problem getting this solved

RSFB.

I don’t think it was LE’s ignorance of technology. At one point they sent data to an out-of-state BI (GBI).

So, they had help. And whatever their personal views, they learned about DNA and consulted Paul Holes.

I think that at the very beginning, something could be lost, because, 1) no one expected the girls to be murdered; 2) I assume, a number of people traveled through the CS, in attempts to help; 3) it is probably a very rare situation, the fact that many lost composure is only too expected.

They learned.

 

[Bignuts45]

They said there were 3 signatures at the crime scene they clued us in to two of them but we don’t have the details but they are most likely how they were posed and the souvenirs that were taken. What do you think the 3rd thing could be? Maybe it’s too graphic to really think of. MOO

 

[JudgeJudi]

IIRC the individual who was part of the search party that found the girls has never been named.

I surely hope it wasn’t him.

Jmo

I agree. He was a volunteer searcher who discovered the bodies lying in the grass between a group of trees deep in the woods.

"He saw something. He could not figure out what it was. There were two deer standing up there. As he looked up to see what it was, that is when he saw them," said Libby's grandma, Becky Patty.

I also read somewhere that he started lowering his binoculars after sighting the deer and that's when he saw them.

Families of teens murdered on Delphi, Ind. trail speak out 1 year after discovery of bodies

 

[JudgeJudi]

If we look at this investigation objectively we find that A&L have not been identified as best friends but as friends who were walking the bridge together and taking photographs (Libby).

Abby had been encouraged to play softball by Libby who had experience in the sport and was athletic. JMO. It was improbable, it seemed, that the two of them would be there together that day but tragically for both it was true. YMMV

They were definitely best friends.

"For five years, no suspects had been named in the murder case of Libby German and Abby Williams, two best friends who were murdered while hiking in their hometown of Delphi, Indiana. Until now".

What we know about the notorious Delphi murders as man charged with killings

Libby's mother, Carrie Timmons, said, "Both girls were athletic, loved adventure and became best friends" (in the eighth grade).

Abby was having a sleepover at Libby's the night before the murders. As they were having a snow day on Feb. 13, Libby had asked Kelsi a number of times that week if she would drive them both to the bridge drop-off point but Kelsi said no, but she relented on the day they were murdered.

 

[mrjitty]

I don’t know about in this case at all, but it does seem that LE & telecoms companies have managed to find ways to work together on these sorts of things IMO maybe finding a way to trim info requests short of needing a warrant

RSBM

A quick look suggests it is quite a complicated area with recent Supreme Court decisions

But it does seem there is scope to get the general tower data for a short period without a warrant.

Also there is the possibility to get a tower dump warrant, as opposed to a warrant for a specific customer/device

I guess this issue is out of the scope of discussion here

ETA: It seems the rules also vary state to state as to what is considered information covered the the 4th Amendment, and what is general information in the hands of 3rd parties

In the past, the court has drawn a sharp distinction between what is private under the law and what is not. For example, talking on a phone is considered private, so police must obtain a search warrant before they may “wiretap” or otherwise listen to a call. However, the dialing records of phone calls were considered a business record and not private, so police may obtain these records directly from a phone company.

Supreme Court Rules Police Need Warrants to Access Data from Cell Towers

A 5-4 vote now officially bars police from being able to access data like call listings and location without a warrant.

www.govtech.com

 

[JudgeJudi]

ETA: I’m trying to say that Libby took at least one photograph of Abby and perhaps one of the bridge. She has been identified as the one who probably took the picture of the bridge (by Gray Hughes I believe.)

Not probably ... she did take both photos.

 

[raja]

I might be the only person on the face of the earth that does not see blue eyes in any of RA’s pictures. They are gray or hazel or a light brown, but I do not see blue eyes.

I don’t see blue either.

 

[legalmomma]

A bit of info on RA’s court appointed attorneys:
What experience do court-appointed lawyers in Delphi murders case bring to the table?


What experience do court-appointed lawyers in Delphi murders case bring to the table?
…
Both lawyers will be paid by Carroll County. The county will split the cost of Allen’s defense with the state. The state will reimburse the county 40% of the public defenders’ fees, which are set by the Indiana Public Defender Commission.

Baldwin comes into this case as the lead attorney, and he has recognizable Indianapolis clients:

• Baldwin is representing 16-year-old Caden Smith who was charged last year as an adult in a triple murder in Indianapolis. I-Team 8 brought this story as breaking news on Oct. 12, 2021, when the bodies of Michael James, Abdullah Mubarak, and Joseph Thomas were found along a walking path near the 4400 block of South Meridian Street. Smith was arrested in December. Baldwin, convinced the judge that some of the evidence was collected with an invalid search warrant. The judge released Smith from jail with a GPS monitor. The state is appealing the judge’s decision, and a status hearing on the case is set for early next year.
• Baldwin also is representing Randy Small, who is sitting in the Brown County jail charged with a murder. According to court records, Small is accused of shooting a neighbor over the placement of a mail box. The case is scheduled for jury trial in January.
• Michael Wayne Hubbard is charged with murder and arson resulting in serious bodily injury. The probable cause for his case was originally sealed by the court and released to the public a few days later. Hubbard is accused of throwing gasoline on an acquaintance and lighting him on fire. A hearing in that case is scheduled for Friday in Jennings County. Baldwin is lead defense attorney in this case.

The court assigned Rozzi to Allen’s case earlier this week. According to his biography, prior to law school he worked in Marion County has a private investigator and correctional officer. According to files, I-Team 8 found Rozzi’s law practice is broad, with cases including charges of driving under the influence, domestic battery, rape, drug possession, and mortgage foreclosure, and also serious violent felony cases. Most of his legal practice is in Cass, Tippecanoe, and Howard counties.

On Tuesday, the special judge assigned to the Delphi murder case will have a hearing on whether to publicly release the probable cause. Both attorney’s representing Allen have indicated they be at that hearing.

 

[SMK777]

Do you have a link where he indicated he was on the bridge that dpay?

Allen, a 50-year-old resident of Delphi, went to the conservation officer right after the teens’ murders on Feb. 13, 2017, and said he was on the Monon High Bridge that afternoon but didn’t see the two girls, the source says.

Source: Investigators have known for years that the Delphi suspect was on the Monon High Bridge the day Abby and Libby were killed

 

[asyousay]

Allen, a 50-year-old resident of Delphi, went to the conservation officer right after the teens’ murders on Feb. 13, 2017, and said he was on the Monon High Bridge that afternoon but didn’t see the two girls, the source says.

Source: Investigators have known for years that the Delphi suspect was on the Monon High Bridge the day Abby and Libby were killed

A very bold move to place himself there when he does resemble bridge guy. He must of been scared somebody had seen him walking that day to come forward and place himself on the bridge.

 

[MeadowMuffin]

They said there were 3 signatures at the crime scene they clued us in to two of them but we don’t have the details but they are most likely how they were posed and the souvenirs that were taken. What do you think the 3rd thing could be? Maybe it’s too graphic to really think of. MOO

The manner of death could be the third. If a perp uses a specific instrument in a specific way, it's their signature. For example, manual strangulation versus using a belt, or a rope, or the victim's bra.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Excerpt from James Renner’s interview with Anna Williams (posted on YouTube Sept. 12, 2018)

Abby went to the bridge with her family in about 2012. Anna had also taken her there when she was 6 or 7 and Abby went swimming in a little sandy area in the "river" down from the bridge. “The trail that leads off the bridge that goes down to the water, that way. It’s not for the faint of heart. It’s not difficult but there’s a steep slope and it’s overgrown so you always have to watch what you’re doing”.

Abby had never walked across the bridge and Anna said she would never have allowed it. She was “level 10 livid” when she heard that Abby had crossed it on Feb. 13 and said Abby would be grounded once she was back home.

This makes me shudder. It sounds like she's describing a section of the creek in close proximity to the crime scene.

 

[TL4S]

RSBM.

You know this is an interesting thought and brings numerous things to mind.

This is a transcript of Down The Hill Podcast interview with Robert Ives I'm certain everyone is familar with where he mentions the 3 signatures. I know we've all been over it before.

ROBERT IVES: I follow along with your example. The very first case I handled as a prosecuting attorney back in 1987…1988, a fellow shot his wife in Deer Creek Indiana. He pinned her up against the refrigerator, shot in the back of the head, she fell on the floor, he shot or twice more in the chest. So, you had a dead person with three bullets in them. They were dead. He was seen at the scene, you know, things like that. All I can say about the situation with Abby and Libby is that there was a lot more physical evidence than at that crime scene. And it’s probably not what you would imagine, or what people think that I’m talking about, it’s probably not. And so because of unique circumstances, which all unique circumstances of a crime are a sort-of ‘signature’, you think “Well, this unusual fact might lead to somebody, or that unusual fact might lead to somebody”. I wish I could tell you, but again that’s up to the State Police. There was nothing that seemed similarly identical that you think ‘well this is modus operandi’. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the term modus operandi, where sometimes criminals will use a…commit a crime in such a way where it’s so distinct that it acts as a sort of signature for them.

ANDREW: Was there a signature in his crime, like would you characterize something as a signature? Like, without telling us what it is.

ROBERT IVES: I would say there were two or three things. I’d say at least three.

If we also add to the mix the 'a lot more physical evidence', the 'waiting in the car', unknown car in carpark, KK and the CSAM pedo ring, Anthony_shots account logins, Allen being arrested 'in connection to the murders', the 'ongoing investigation' plus the 'tentacles' and so on.

The fact there was X amount of time between the murders and when the search started there is room for one to murder and flee and perhaps another perpetrator(s) to come 'enjoy' the scene (skin crawling stuff I know) and perhaps pose/stage them for their perverted enjoyment. Taking pics and/or souvenirs.

Maybe there's 'at least 3 signatures' because there were in fact different people who were at the scene within a short amount of time doing whatever they were doing.

Kline could well be lying to investigators about the phone and weapon in the Wabash River. But what if he's not.

This part has always intrigued me:
RI:
All I can say about the situation with Abby and Libby is that there was a lot more physical evidence than at that crime scene. And it’s probably not what you would imagine, or what people think that I’m talking about, it’s probably not.

The way I interpret it, in the context of his entire statement, is that there was a lot more physical evidence at A & L's CS than at a murder like he described right before. But that physical evidence is not what we would expect.

So what might we expect would be there? Bodily fluids, maybe? RI said it's impossible to think of a motivation for the crime. I would expect a sexual motivation, but maybe not. A murder weapon? Footprints? DNA? Fingerprints? These are what I might expect. I wonder what "physical evidence" was there that we wouldn't expect.