Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #160

[mooseandcoffee]

To be fair the prosecution was already all over the media and was leaking tidbits to certain Media outlets. It's only fair that the defense was allowed to also do that.

What tidbits are you referring to?

 

[loveplace]

My guess is the stuff that has been popping up on the MS podcasts.

What tidbits are you referring to?

 

[10ofRods]

I would want to know at what point their recollection became certain that the person seen was RA? I hope the 2 sketches don't come back to bite them. Unless they have DNA evidence, AND it's tied to RA with a search warrant secured with actual probable cause, I think the state may be in trouble here.

Are you not convinced by the ejection marks on the bullet?

I'm sure they have RA's DNA by now (as they successfully served a search warrant for the gun, and I assume it included things related to the gun, such as the gun case and any ammo - all of which would have his DNA).

RA put himself at the scene of the crime. Didn't he also admit to owning a jacket that matched the one in the famous bridge picture, taken by one of the girls?

I believe they have tons more evidence about the crime, but the damning piece for RA is that a bullet from his gun was found in between the bodies at the murder site. And the gun in question is not the most common model - that must have put RA on their radar. Each time they interviewed him, he gave up more information.

Search warrants are not that hard to get and probable cause is a low bar. At any rate, a Judge issued it which makes it "actual probable cause."

 

[10ofRods]

Interested to see if the defense will try to concoct a story about how the Sig Sauer bullet got next to the girls or will bring in their own 'experts' who will testify of course that there's no way to tell that bullet was ever in that gun. There's really two different paths you can follow here.

First would be an innocent explanation that hey, RA frequented the trails and woods and often carried his gun on him. He kept it unloaded because he was only going to use it just in case. In Indiana with a firearm permit, that's his right. The bullet fell out at some point and through weather, elements, etc. got kicked around the ground and happened to be next to the girls bodies after someone else committed the murders.

Second is ballistics experts who would testify that whatever methods LE used are junk science, not reliable, no way to tell, etc.

I think the bullet will end up being extremely important to the prosecution here because right now it's the only known piece of physical evidence that ties RA to the murder scene. So you have to either explain that away by saying it was happenstance and a lot of people walked those trails and by that creek or you have to try to distance your client from it and say that's not from my gun. I highly suspect they'll opt for the second one.

If you were on the jury, would you actually buy this story about the bullet? That it "accidentally fell out" (it has ejection marks) and landed in between the bodies of the two girls and just coincidentally, RA admits being across the bridge at the same time and also still has the same gun? And would you trust FBI forensics or the forensics of the defense?

Most juries go with believing LE experts, not hired defense experts.

How would this "innocent explanation" even get into the trial? Are you thinking the defense will put RA on the stand? Because they'd have to, to make that explanation and I don't think that's an option for them.

 

[arielilane]

If you were on the jury, would you actually buy this story about the bullet? That it "accidentally fell out" (it has ejection marks) and landed in between the bodies of the two girls and just coincidentally, RA admits being across the bridge at the same time and also still has the same gun? And would you trust FBI forensics or the forensics of the defense?

Most juries go with believing LE experts, not hired defense experts.

How would this "innocent explanation" even get into the trial? Are you thinking the defense will put RA on the stand? Because they'd have to, to make that explanation and I don't think that's an option for them.

Agreed. I suspect all the other clothes he wore that day were located by LE. I don’t see that he discarded them but I could be wrong. I’m hopeful there’s blood, dna evidence that will nail the case tightly shut and put him away for good. Additionally, what about his albi… yeah, he puts himself right there! IMO

 

[10ofRods]

Maybe. IMO it depends on where the bullet was found and what condition it was in when found. Was in on the surface placed in between them? Or had it been there awhile and was it oxidized and covered by debris. Lots to consider.

The bullet was found at about the same time the bodies were found, so it hadn't been there very long. I personally believe RA racked his gun to intimidate the girls and the bullet came out and has ejection marks. It was not "placed" by him in the sense that he reached into a pocket and just dropped a bullet.

He forgot that his Sig Sauer would automatically eject a bullet from the chamber when he racked.

Microscopic analysis revealed that the ejection marks on the bullet matched RA's gun, IMO.

Delphi murders: Affidavit says Richard Allen linked to bullet at crime scene

A redacted version of the probable cause affidavit was released on Tuesday, finally revealing what led to the arrest and charging of local man Richard Allen almost five years on from the murders of Libby German and Abby Williams

www.independent.co.uk

Both RA and his wife confirmed that he was the only person with access to that particular gun.

One of the victims mentions the word "gun" in relationship in a message on the day of the murders. They were concerned enough to take a picture of the man who worried them.

There will be other forensics on the recently acquired objects from his house (jacket and knife in particular), if analysis is not already complete.

 

[asyousay]

We know about 5% of what LE have on him and I might even be generous there with 5%.


There is simply no way to know how weak or strong the case is at the moment. We literally know the basics and won’t hear much more until the trial. But by his own admission he was there moments before the girls arrived on that bridge and his gun Bullet was found by the bodies.


Imo

 

[CNYDarkStar]

But honestly, we don't know if they did report him or not.
Some could have called in tips about him.

We just don't know and LE aren't saying anything

I can pretty much believe that in a small town like Delphi, he was called in as a tip at least once.

Exactly Sparty, this is what I've said a few times. We don't know what they did or didn't do. My guess is that they were on to him rather quickly and were waiting for the right and precise evidence to snag him.

 

[CNYDarkStar]

I don't really understand your comment or how it relates to my post

The charges clearly state murder in the course of a kidnapping. The PCA clearly sets out facts of a kidnapping. The existence of the murders is not contested, and the evidence of that will be presented at trial, so it discussed in a succinct manner. The defence is unlikely to contest that the abductor (on video) did the murders (obvious logical inference)

I was a bit perplexed by this reaction as well. Maybe one of those "defenders" others were mentioning...

 

[MistyWaters]

But honestly, we don't know if they did report him or not.
Some could have called in tips about him.

We just don't know and LE aren't saying anything

I can pretty much believe that in a small town like Delphi, he was called in as a tip at least once.

In my humble opinion RA is not what I’d call a dead ringer to the grainy photo of the man on the bridge, as it reveals next to nothing of the subject’s face. The photo doesn’t contain enough detail to reliably identify any one person, however there certainly is similarity to RA. It also served to narrow down the suspect as a caucasian male.

LE probably got 1000s of tips they considered basically unhelpful regarding men with similar physical characteristics alone without any additional firsthand knowledge of why that person might be a suspect, therefore lacking any information to warrant further investigation. Regardless a conviction will not be based on how many tips like that were received, if any, it’s the opinion of the jury after hearing the evidence that matters.

After all RA lived and worked in Delphi and I can’t believe not one policer officer ever frequented the CVS store. We know family did and even they did not have a lightbulb “that’s him!” moment either. In fact think it’s fair to say at the time RA was arrested nobody other than LE suspected him. Indeed he was hiding in plain sight, which really isn’t all that unusual in true crime cases.

JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

Exactly Sparty, this is what I've said a few times. We don't know what they did or didn't do. My guess is that they were on to him rather quickly and were waiting for the right and precise evidence to snag him.

We don’t know why LE didn’t have RA under the radar all along but by all accounts his report to the conservation officer was initially overlooked for five years.

“Allen told a state conservation officer he was in the area on the day of the killings, but his report may have been considered unfounded because he said he didn’t see anything, a police source has told I-Team 8. But, after five years and countless interviews, investigators had become frustrated and ordered a review of tips and case files; that was when Allen became a suspect.”

Judge orders Delphi murders suspect Richard Allen to court

INDIANAPOLIS (WISH) — The judge has ordered Richard Allen, the suspect in the 2017 Delphi murders of two teen girls, to appear in person in the courtroom on Tuesday. I-Team 8 expects to get at least a partial glimpse into the Delphi murders investigation if the judge releases the probable cause...

www.wishtv.com

 

[taylorss]

… Every tip received is entered into an FBI system called “Pyramid.” That system stores information like names, descriptions and motives so it can be cross-referenced with other tips locally and across the country to find any possible connections.…”

I wonder whether the Indians CO’s note on RA made it into the FBI’s “Pyramid”…

 

[Trebor5591]

The dots that aren't connecting for me right now but I assume LE knows or can make an educated theory on are:

1. What caused RA to decide to murder these two girls today? HIs attorney makes a point that he has no criminal history, so what was the motive hre? Did he just wake up one day and decide I'm going to kill two teenagers? Doesn't make much sense.

In my opinion, he did not plan on murdering anyone that day. He passed other groups of girls on the paths that day and did not molest them. One group said "hi" to him but he pretty much ignored them, according to the Probable Cause Affadavit. When he left the bridge, he encountered Abby and Libby coming towards the bridge. See the Gray Hughes video on this (below). I believe something happened in their interaction as they passed each other on the path that upset him and them both. I hope the girls did not say to each other " what a creep" and he overheard. In the recording on Libby's phone, Libby's grandmother reportedly said they spoke of a "creepy guy" and "is he coming back" or something of that nature. See second Gray Hughes video below. So my theory is, he became upset at something one of the girl's said, and initially walked away, but then, after stewing abut it for a minute or two, he turned around and went back onto the bridge, following the girls, and things spun out of control. This is my opinion only.

Court documents released in Delphi murder case: Read the probable cause affidavit here

The affidavit does not indicate how Libby German or Abby Williams were killed Feb. 13, 2017. Read the probable cause affidavit here.

www.indystar.com

 

[asyousay]

Yes I don’t believe this was planned or he is super dumb. So many mistakes made and it’s almost like if it was planned he wanted to get caught imo

 

[Andieinsyd]

If RA put his hand up to the CO early while it was still a missing persons case, that might explain its lack of perceived significance back in 2017. Maybe that was the reason for the note - who were the three juvenile females - as they were searching for two live girls. Would really like to know the date of that report.

 

[mooseandcoffee]

interesting question about license plates. If Indiana requires a rear plate only, backing in has more significance.

only rear plates.

 

[mooseandcoffee]

The dots that aren't connecting for me right now but I assume LE knows or can make an educated theory on are:

1. What caused RA to decide to murder these two girls today? HIs attorney makes a point that he has no criminal history, so what was the motive hre? Did he just wake up one day and decide I'm going to kill two teenagers? Doesn't make much sense.
2. If these murders were planned, what are the event(s) that led him to deciding he needed or wanted to kill them? Does the anthony_shots profile play a role here or is that a coincidence? Did RA use it or know of it?
3. Was RA committing the murders on behalf or under orders, direction, plotting with another person? At the PCA hearing, the prosecutor mentioned "others involved" - who are those people and what are their roles?
4. Did RA go to the bridge planning to murder the girls, planning to murder someone, or was this a pure crime of opportunity?

I really hope all this comes out at trial because while I fully believe RA killed A&L, the why part are the dots that aren't connecting right now. Maybe there's more in his past that gives warning signs he's someone who would murder children, but from what we know now it doesn't appear to be visible. It's rare that someone goes from no criminal history to murdering two unrelated children they did not know so the pathway to that is what I'm interested to see play out.

The honest truth is that we may never know the why. Killers don't always know the why either.

 

[mooseandcoffee]

Kidnapping is an aggravating circumstance to murder in Idaho making him eligible for the death penalty, in fact, if guilty, he fulfilled several other statutory aggravating circumstances.
Scroll down to number 9 for the list.
Idaho Statutes

Indiana?

 

[Boxer]

THANK YOU! I find the whole racking thing to intimidate ridiculous. If you are going to pull a gun you have to be ready to use it the second you pull it. Hollywood uses this technique all the time and it's laughable. Especially when cops or SWAT are about to go in and bust someone. Those guns are loaded and ready to fire well before they get anywhere close to pulling them. It's the Safety that is the last thing to be switched off before engagement.

I also think it makes no sense to clear a gun at a crime scene! The person just committed two murders and has to get the heck out of Dodge. He might need to use the gun again if he encounters other people or law enforcement on his exit out of there. It would make more sense to keep the weapon loaded until clear and in relative safety out of the area.


Of course if RA is a complete idiot he screws up a ton in the commission of this crime. Let's list his screw ups so far:

- He gets recorded approaching the two victims plastering his image all over the USA and rest of the world.

- His voice is recorded in the commission of a kidnapping

- He is spotted by several people. Not only before the murders but after the murders.

- He walks covered in blood and mud on a public road, OUT IN THE OPEN where he is spotted.

- He willfully goes to the police and admits that he was in the exact same area at the exact same time that two minors are brutally murdered. Not only that, but he admits to wearing and STILL owning the exact same clothes that the suspect in the video is wearing! The same clothes that were allegedly bloody and muddy. He KEEPS THEM!

- His car is spotted by a camera and by a witness in the vicinity of the murders at the same time as the murders.

- He keeps his cell phone on him and uses it at the same area, at the same time of the murders.

- He is completely incompetent with guns and doesn't feel comfortable enough with a gun to travel with it loaded and ready to fire. All he has to do is switch the safety off to fire if he intends to use it. He is perfectly comfortable murdering two girls yet, he is uncomfortable traveling with a fully loaded weapon so.... He clears the round from his gun at the murder location before.... he makes his escape!! He leaves an unspent round from the exact same gun that he owns at the scene of a double murder. This makes absolutely no sense to me...at all!!! Unless he's leaving a 'calling card' which makes him an idiot.

- He never changes his appearence or alters his look in the 5 yrs since the murders.

- He never moves from the area despite his image and police sketches of him being plastered ALL over town and the US.

- He keeps his car that he used to drive to the scene of the murders. The same car that he drove home in covered in blood and mud from the homicides.

- He keeps the same gun that he used in committing the kidnapping. He might have kept the same knife used in the murders.

- He interacts with the parents of one of the murder victims and gives them free photos.

- He speaks to the police WITHOUT a lawyer present.....at least 2 times!!! Not only that but he fails to contact a lawyer after a search warrant was served, AND police searched his home for 12 freakin hours, towed his car away, confiscated weapons, computers, clothes etc, etc. WHO DOESN'T CONTACT A LAWYER AFTER THIS??????!!!!!!!

I'm sure I'm missing a few things. Despite all these screw ups this criminal mastermind managed to hide in plain sight for 5 freakin years!!!

The complete and total incompetence of this alleged criminal is massive if he is actually the murderer. One for the ages. Yet, it took this long to apprehend him. There's a lot of weirdness in this case on both sides. A lot just doesn't make sense. Just saying.

MOO I don’t find racking ridiculous, for intimidation or just to do something as he steps into an irrevocable act of criminal excel.

 

[CNYDarkStar]

We don’t know why LE didn’t have RA under the radar all along but by all accounts his report to the conservation officer was initially overlooked for five years.

“Allen told a state conservation officer he was in the area on the day of the killings, but his report may have been considered unfounded because he said he didn’t see anything, a police source has told I-Team 8. But, after five years and countless interviews, investigators had become frustrated and ordered a review of tips and case files; that was when Allen became a suspect.”

Judge orders Delphi murders suspect Richard Allen to court

INDIANAPOLIS (WISH) — The judge has ordered Richard Allen, the suspect in the 2017 Delphi murders of two teen girls, to appear in person in the courtroom on Tuesday. I-Team 8 expects to get at least a partial glimpse into the Delphi murders investigation if the judge releases the probable cause...

www.wishtv.com

I must have missed the part that LE says he's been under the radar and they were never looking at him... Seems a few posters here know this information.