Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #160

[JosieMae]

Did RA tell his wife
“well I went to the trails by way of a roundabout route to watch the stock ticker while I walked along like any normal person would do and you know how I like to watch fish from the height of the bridge so of course I was on it it’s just a wonder I didn’t see them at all as it was about the same time from what I hear.”?



No, I think he was quiet about being there in case the information would lead someone to putting it together.

Maybe there is a tip about him buried in the mass of tips.

All imo

RSBM.

Good question. If he didn't tell his wife, and she only found out about his 2017 admission right before we did, surely that made her go "hmmmm ....".

 

[GatorFL]

Is it possible that the gun/bullet was one of his signatures (in some way, shape, form or fashion)?
IMO that sounds far fetched but I thought that I’d ask anyway since it popped into my mind.

Edit: I know very little about guns.

Maybe. IMO it depends on where the bullet was found and what condition it was in when found. Was in on the surface placed in between them? Or had it been there awhile and was it oxidized and covered by debris. Lots to consider.

 

[GatorFL]

Why couldn't it be the source?

Op says that most of those who carry have one in the chamber ready to shoot so going along with it like that must be no big deal.

Couldn't he chamber it and continue to use that it is ready to shoot to scare them into cooperating?

Then eject it when there is no longer a need for it to scare them and prepare it to travel back to his car?


All imo

It could be the source of the bullet found, agreed.

I have a CCP, and depending on the gun I am carrying and the circumstances I may or may not have a round chambered. When I hike I am always armed, but usually with a lightweight revolver and there is always one ready to fire. But sometimes when I hike, depending on what kind of animals are in the area like bears, alligators and panthers, I am more heavily armed with a .45 Colt semiautomatic. I don't chamber a round until I feel I need to be ready which in one hike I documented here on WS was not very far into the woods.

Racking a pistol like the Sig ejects the bullet from the chamber whether it has been fired or not. So, if he racked the gun in front of the girls it could be the round found.

Yes, if he racked it and ejected a bullet, provided there were more in the magazine it could still be ready to shoot.

If he wanted to make the gun safe for carry back to his car all he had to do is engage the safety, not eject all the rounds.

 

[Spartygirl]

I’m more confused about how not one person, not the CO that interviewed him, not the town busy body, not the guy who served him at the local bar, not the mum who picks up a prescription every week, no friend, no family, no one thought that this pic resembled RA. No one called LE and said, ‘hey, that pic on the bridge kinda looks like my neighbour, my cousin, the guy that drinks at my bar, the guy at the CVS’ nothing? No one? Moo

But honestly, we don't know if they did report him or not.
Some could have called in tips about him.

We just don't know and LE aren't saying anything

I can pretty much believe that in a small town like Delphi, he was called in as a tip at least once.

 

[retrometro]

I honestly don't see a strong resemblance between the grainy images of BG and RA. Now that we know RA is the suspect, I believe it's him, but I don't think it's weird that people failed to notice. And like @Spartygirl says, there may have been tips that LE hasn't publicly disclosed.

 

[Spartygirl]

Murder Sheet – A Defence Perspective on the Bullet

A: = Attorney (verified and speaking anonymously)

[Much of this is verbatim but I’ve paraphrased parts. Unnecessary words and phrases have been omitted]

PART 4

KG: I’m curious. What sort of things should people be looking for to happen next?
A: Oh. Well, I don’t practise Indiana law so I don’t know procedurally exactly all the next steps but I would be surprised if we get to the point where there is a trial – I doubt it’s going to be March, but whenever it is – we’re not going to get to a point where there is a trial and another suspect has not been named publicly. That would be something that has to happen at some point. In my opinion, I think it has to happen. Even if a deal has been struck with that other person, there’s going to have to be some kind of acknowledgement, whether it’s in the form of a press conference or a press release, or more likely a filing of some sort in the public record, I think that has to happen in order for it to kind of be cleared up a little bit – the confusion regarding what happened in this case and how we got to the point where a previously unknown person has been charged and no connection to any of the other players that have been mentioned so far publicly. You know, there’s got to be some connection made and that’s what – you know, that’s going to be the next big step in my opinion. That’s going to be the next big action that happens in this case.

AC: Moving on to you experience with firearms, we wanted to ask you – so RA is said to have a Sig Sauer P226. Do you know anything about that gun or what it conjures to mind. We don’t own guns and don’t really know them that well so we’re curious about what someone who does have to say about that kind of gun.
A: He doesn’t have enough experience with that particular brand to know anything in particular. He says it’s a fairly commonly sold handgun and just the sort of thing that somebody who wants to buy a firearm for self-protection or protection of the home would buy. It’s not like some sort of automatic weapon that would be prohibited by law or an uzi type thing or something you’re going to see in a movie and say, “Oh wow. That’s an interesting gun”. It’s just a standard handgun basically. It’s not the most common handgun but it’s not rare.

AC: As you’re observing this, have any other things stood out to you about either what the prosecution or the defence is doing so far that seems noteworthy or worth discussing?
A: The defence side is strongly asserting actual innocence so far and that’s what I would be doing. Generally I don’t give interviews but I think they’re in the position where they kind of have to. It’s pretty noteworthy to me that they are as strongly taking that position as they are and that Rick’s family seems to be behind him. That’s very interesting.

KG: Is that unusual for a defendant’s family to stand behind him in a case like this?
A: In cases that I handle it’s not terribly unusual but this is not a normal case. This is a once in a career kind of case. I don’t think I’ve had anything like this personally. The fact that his defence lawyers mentioned that his wife is behind him means that it’s probably true. I don’t think she was – you know, (ui) was there in court – that’s why she’s there or not, but in a case like this – so high profile and it’s such an abhorrent nature, the facts that are alleged – it is somewhat surprising that there’s a mention that she’s supporting him. I would suspect (inaudible) the court to come for a family member is to not be involved terribly in the defence but not necessarily being – you know, for example, (ui) giving him some money. … (Inaudible) That’s if the reports are to be believed. That’s the sort of thing that I would – doing it quietly. You know, that’s what I would expect, for them to be – for the defence lawyers to feel confident enough (ui) to mention it. To me, it’s no (ui). And what does it mean exactly, I don’t know, but it’s no (ui).

AC: You mentioned the defence asserting actual innocence. I’m sure for a lot of lay people that might just seem like par for the course for a defence attorney to do kind of thing. “No, my guy’s innocent. He didn’t do anything wrong”. But I’m curious, you know, in your experience, what makes that somewhat unusual?
A: Well, a lot of times there are defences that kind of suggest themselves from the facts. You know, you may have a self defence claim or you may have an accident claim. You know, there are all kinds of legal defences that you can raise, but to say actual innocence right from the start, you’re kind of staking a claim. You better have some facts to make stick or else that’s gonna look – you’re gonna look foolish later on. You know, that’s why to me the better course of action in my cases is always to say “no comment”. But you know, these guys are in the position where they’re having to respond, and the fact that went out on that limb and said “actual innocence” – not those words exactly but the fact that they (ui) that as a defence is a big statement; it’s a big claim. And either they know something we don’t or they’re just trying to bluff so that they can, you know, get the public reaction to quieten down a little bit and actually consider whether maybe Rick is not guilty.

AC: And I would imagine – not to put words in your mouth – I imagine that is important in such a high profile case to kind of, you know, for the defence to at least make overtures to the public. Is that fair to say?
A: Oh yeah. It’s huge. In order to have a fair trial you have to have people who will consider whether – and who will say – and actually consider – whether he is not guilty. And so you’ve got to put that out there, that just because you – just because there’s an arrest and you’ve come through all this excitement doesn’t mean that our client is guilty or not. Press releases and press conferences do not make a prosecution – it’s evidence. And so I think that that is a very big step to take to protect your client, and I’ve done it on multiple occasions after trials or after guilty pleas, I go to the press and say that my client is not the monster that he was made out to be and you can see it based on the evidence that came out. This was a bad situation. And that’s more of an active cleaning up my client’s reputation a little bit, but if I were placed in their position, I would want to put my defence out there as early as I can and still leave some flexibility and the problem with the actual innocence theory is there’s not a lot of flexibility for that.

AC: Right. You either did it or you didn’t do it, and yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
A: Yeah.

AC: And it seems like almost setting up another hurdle for themselves to be kind of proving that he’s actually innocent rather than just creating reasonable doubt.
A: Exactly. Exactly.

AC: Well listen, this has been incredibly insightful and helpful to us for understanding this bullet evidence, but just also kind of looking at things from a strategic perspective overall. You were self-deprecating but you are an expert obviously and we really appreciate it.

I havent seen this and there isnt a link here but is KG, Kelsi, Libby's sister ??

 

[Boxer]

I honestly don't see a strong resemblance between the grainy images of BG and RA. Now that we know RA is the suspect, I believe it's him, but I don't think it's weird that people failed to notice. And like @Spartygirl says, there may have been tips that LE hasn't publicly disclosed.

MOO strong resemblance IMO. The glare from beneath his brow.

 

[Spartygirl]

The Unspent Bullet/Round Bothers Me!

This is why

Presuming the girls were already incapacitated or deceased having been forced down the hill and across a creek by someone presumably pointing a gun at them.

Why would the perpetrator find the need to *advertiser censored*, and cycle his weapon at all? Having got them to the Murder site by just pointing the weapon.

I would have expected any cocking or cycling unspent bullets to occur at the beginning of the girl's ordeal at the South East end of the bridge. The fear element

This Guy must have been a frigging juggling nija.

• Control two girls down a steep hill
• With a gun in his hand
• Whilst navigating the same steep hill himself
• Crossing the same creek
• Getting them up an embankment which he himself has to do (One handed) because he presumably still has the gun in his hand pointing at the girls.
• Then to top it all kill both of the girls with a bladed weapon as per RL (PCA) and they had no obvious signs of a struggle.
• So he swapped the gun for a bladed weapon!
• HOW?

This in my amateur speculative mode leads me to wonder about the following

• As sure as hell swapping from pointing a gun to killing two girls with a bladed object whilst cycling/cocking a gun and dropping an unspent round takes some dexterity.

I am on the side of justice for Libby & Abby. I want their justice to be for the right reasons with the right person/people being held accountable for the right reasons no matter what their involvement.

The Unspent Bullett/Round it’s reported proximity to the bodies irritates me.

I think the word Actor was a very careful word from the prosecution

As always be kind to each other and respect each other's thoughts

SIJ

He racked gun, and either forgot in his killing frenzy or he did realize it and spent time looking for it but obviously, did not find it.

He knew he could NOT shoot them, 2 shots?? NOPE
2 shots would make too much noise.

He already ran into other people there, couldn't risk it so out came the knife. (Geez, I hate to type this UGH )

 

[twall]

I havent seen this and there isnt a link here but is KG, Kelsi, Libby's sister ??

KG is Kevin Greenlee, one of the hosts of The Murder Sheet Podcast.

‎Murder Sheet on Apple Podcasts

‎True Crime · 2024

podcasts.apple.com

 

[Caylee Advocate]

I live in Michigan, but not too far from the Indiana border and both MI and Indiana are one plate states.

Oops, close enough. LOL

 

[Derph]

That makes very little sense to me. The vast majority of people that carry concealed, good guys and bad guys, have a round in the chamber unless it's a revolver. Having a gun that is ready to fire is kind of the whole point. An over-abundance of caution doesn't fit in with what all this perp just did.

I'm also not buying in to the "rack it to intimidate" idea. If holding a gun and a knife on me isn't already intimidating, then I don't expect racking the gun to add any additional threat.

So what does that leave?
Placed there to make some kind of statement. Maybe? Strikes me as a strange idea, but then you can't argue with a sick mind.

Dropped by accident in the confusion of killing, moving, and staging. IF I had to pick one, I'd go with that.

THANK YOU! I find the whole racking thing to intimidate ridiculous. If you are going to pull a gun you have to be ready to use it the second you pull it. Hollywood uses this technique all the time and it's laughable. Especially when cops or SWAT are about to go in and bust someone. Those guns are loaded and ready to fire well before they get anywhere close to pulling them. It's the Safety that is the last thing to be switched off before engagement.

I also think it makes no sense to clear a gun at a crime scene! The person just committed two murders and has to get the heck out of Dodge. He might need to use the gun again if he encounters other people or law enforcement on his exit out of there. It would make more sense to keep the weapon loaded until clear and in relative safety out of the area.


Of course if RA is a complete idiot he screws up a ton in the commission of this crime. Let's list his screw ups so far:

- He gets recorded approaching the two victims plastering his image all over the USA and rest of the world.

- His voice is recorded in the commission of a kidnapping

- He is spotted by several people. Not only before the murders but after the murders.

- He walks covered in blood and mud on a public road, OUT IN THE OPEN where he is spotted.

- He willfully goes to the police and admits that he was in the exact same area at the exact same time that two minors are brutally murdered. Not only that, but he admits to wearing and STILL owning the exact same clothes that the suspect in the video is wearing! The same clothes that were allegedly bloody and muddy. He KEEPS THEM!

- His car is spotted by a camera and by a witness in the vicinity of the murders at the same time as the murders.

- He keeps his cell phone on him and uses it at the same area, at the same time of the murders.

- He is completely incompetent with guns and doesn't feel comfortable enough with a gun to travel with it loaded and ready to fire. All he has to do is switch the safety off to fire if he intends to use it. He is perfectly comfortable murdering two girls yet, he is uncomfortable traveling with a fully loaded weapon so.... He clears the round from his gun at the murder location before.... he makes his escape!! He leaves an unspent round from the exact same gun that he owns at the scene of a double murder. This makes absolutely no sense to me...at all!!! Unless he's leaving a 'calling card' which makes him an idiot.

- He never changes his appearence or alters his look in the 5 yrs since the murders.

- He never moves from the area despite his image and police sketches of him being plastered ALL over town and the US.

- He keeps his car that he used to drive to the scene of the murders. The same car that he drove home in covered in blood and mud from the homicides.

- He keeps the same gun that he used in committing the kidnapping. He might have kept the same knife used in the murders.

- He interacts with the parents of one of the murder victims and gives them free photos.

- He speaks to the police WITHOUT a lawyer present.....at least 2 times!!! Not only that but he fails to contact a lawyer after a search warrant was served, AND police searched his home for 12 freakin hours, towed his car away, confiscated weapons, computers, clothes etc, etc. WHO DOESN'T CONTACT A LAWYER AFTER THIS??????!!!!!!!

I'm sure I'm missing a few things. Despite all these screw ups this criminal mastermind managed to hide in plain sight for 5 freakin years!!!

The complete and total incompetence of this alleged criminal is massive if he is actually the murderer. One for the ages. Yet, it took this long to apprehend him. There's a lot of weirdness in this case on both sides. A lot just doesn't make sense. Just saying.

 

[Caylee Advocate]

Plinking with his expensive Sig seems likely.

With ammo being overly priced, "plinking" has become a thing of the past for many. I don't remember what prices were back then though. All I know is I plink far less than I used to.

 

[JudgeJudi]

I havent seen this and there isnt a link here but is KG, Kelsi, Libby's sister ??

KG is Kevin Greenlee, an attorney and one of two hosts of Murder Sheet.
AC Is Aine Cain, a journalist and the other host.

Here's the link I use: Murder Sheet

 

[WingsOverTX]

THANK YOU! I find the whole racking thing to intimidate ridiculous. If you are going to pull a gun you have to be ready to use it the second you pull it. Hollywood uses this technique all the time and it's laughable. Especially when cops or SWAT are about to go in and bust someone. Those guns are loaded and ready to fire well before they get anywhere close to pulling them. It's the Safety that is the last thing to be switched off before engagement.

I also think it makes no sense to clear a gun at a crime scene! The person just committed two murders and has to get the heck out of Dodge. He might need to use the gun again if he encounters other people or law enforcement on his exit out of there. It would make more sense to keep the weapon loaded until clear and in relative safety out of the area.


Of course if RA is a complete idiot he screws up a ton in the commission of this crime. Let's list his screw ups so far:

- He gets recorded approaching the two victims plastering his image all over the USA and rest of the world.

- His voice is recorded in the commission of a kidnapping

- He is spotted by several people. Not only before the murders but after the murders.

- He walks covered in blood and mud on a public road, OUT IN THE OPEN where he is spotted.

- He willfully goes to the police and admits that he was in the exact same area at the exact same time that two minors are brutally murdered. Not only that, but he admits to wearing and STILL owning the exact same clothes that the suspect in the video is wearing! The same clothes that were allegedly bloody and muddy. He KEEPS THEM!

- His car is spotted by a camera and by a witness in the vicinity of the murders at the same time as the murders.

- He keeps his cell phone on him and uses it at the same area, at the same time of the murders.

- He is completely incompetent with guns and doesn't feel comfortable enough with a gun to travel with it loaded and ready to fire. All he has to do is switch the safety off to fire if he intends to use it. He is perfectly comfortable murdering two girls yet, he is uncomfortable traveling with a fully loaded weapon so.... He clears the round from his gun at the murder location before.... he makes his escape!! He leaves an unspent round from the exact same gun that he owns at the scene of a double murder. This makes absolutely no sense to me...at all!!! Unless he's leaving a 'calling card' which makes him an idiot.

- He never changes his appearence or alters his look in the 5 yrs since the murders.

- He never moves from the area despite his image and police sketches of him being plastered ALL over town and the US.

- He keeps his car that he used to drive to the scene of the murders. The same car that he drove home in covered in blood and mud from the homicides.

- He keeps the same gun that he used in committing the kidnapping. He might have kept the same knife used in the murders.

- He interacts with the parents of one of the murder victims and gives them free photos.

- He speaks to the police WITHOUT a lawyer present.....at least 2 times!!! Not only that but he fails to contact a lawyer after a search warrant was served, AND police searched his home for 12 freakin hours, towed his car away, confiscated weapons, computers, clothes etc, etc. WHO DOESN'T CONTACT A LAWYER AFTER THIS??????!!!!!!!

I'm sure I'm missing a few things. Despite all these screw ups this criminal mastermind managed to hide in plain sight for 5 freakin years!!!

The complete and total incompetence of this alleged criminal is massive if he is actually the murderer. One for the ages. Yet, it took this long to apprehend him. There's a lot of weirdness in this case on both sides. A lot just doesn't make sense. Just saying.

Just like BTK, he knew LE would eventually come for him. So where did he slip up?

Computer disk may have cracked BTK case

The routine use of a computer may have helped police crack the BTK serial killer case and arrest their only suspect.

www.nbcnews.com

An electronic imprint in a disk sent to a Wichita TV station by the BTK killer had been traced to the church.

As if Rader made a mistake (on purpose).

We cannot logic our way into the minds of these kinds of criminals. Perhaps that's why an arrest took so long?

It is sad that sadistic killers elude capture for often long periods of time.

We can be glad that few people are so twisted & evil that they consider their hideous crimes to be matter-of-fact events not the horror that more normal people see them to be.

MOO

 

[al66pine]

USING GUN FOR VICTIM COMPLIANCE?

....He carried it to commit a crime not for protection.
Racking the gun right off insures compliance. He had two to scare....
Obviously you are gun savvy those of us who are not would be very frightened by the sound more so than just a guy waving around a gun. The sound means shooting is imminent. all imo.

@Jade Interesting points. Racking the slide is the traditional TV/movie signal that shooting will happen, but IRL firing may not immediately ensue.
A basic gun safety rule (applicable to both a person handling gun and to anyone in the area): Assume a gun is loaded until you verify it is not. What you don't know can hurt you.* W a handgun owner who constantly has a round in the chamber, there's no racking-the-slide-noise to alert others. When waving gun around, owner can injure or kill without stopping to rack the slide.*
Would someone the age of poor little Abby or Libby and w their oh-too-short life experience necessarily know this? IDK, kinda sorta doubtful imo.

W or w’out racking the slide, and w or w’out a round in the chamber, RA’s reveal of the gun (assumed) likely intimidated the girls into complying w his GDTH request.
imo jmo moo.
__________________________________
* Imo gen'ly speaking, a man w a gun in hand waving it around should frighten anyone close enough to see him doing that. Why? Because that “anyone” is (virtually certain to be ) within the line of fire and may suffer serious injury or death. A rational, clear-thinking "anyone" knows that they cannot determine whether a round is in the chamber, ready to fire within a split second.
Imo, a man racking the slide in a gun in hand should be MORE frightening to anyone close enough to see or hear him doing that, for same ^ reason.
FYI. Google "handgun a round always in the chamber" Lots of opinions and reasons, pro & con.

 

[kkdj]

He racked gun, and either forgot in his killing frenzy or he did realize it and spent time looking for it but obviously, did not find it.

He knew he could NOT shoot them, 2 shots?? NOPE
2 shots would make too much noise.

He already ran into other people there, couldn't risk it so out came the knife. (Geez, I hate to type this UGH )

That gun was all about control imo.
He never had any intention of shooting them.
He had other things in mind.
Sick F!

 

[mrjitty]

The PCA is screwed up so many ways I lost count. Who wrote it again? And who signed off on it? MOO Just more of the same.

The language of the PCA and the charges mesh about as well as the first sketch and the second. Whoever writes the book about this case should just title it "Cognitive Dissonance" -and for so many reasons.

I don't really understand your comment or how it relates to my post

The charges clearly state murder in the course of a kidnapping. The PCA clearly sets out facts of a kidnapping. The existence of the murders is not contested, and the evidence of that will be presented at trial, so it discussed in a succinct manner. The defence is unlikely to contest that the abductor (on video) did the murders (obvious logical inference)

 

[Boxer]

The PCA is screwed up so many ways I lost count. Who wrote it again? And who signed off on it? MOO Just more of the same.

The language of the PCA and the charges mesh about as well as the first sketch and the second. Whoever writes the book about this case should just title it "Cognitive Dissonance" -and for so many reasons.

MOO Makes complete sense to me.
Felony murder. Kidnapping a felony, if a felony results in murder, then it’s felony murder.
The person committing the felony is held responsible for the results of their felony action.

 

[GatorFL]

With ammo being overly priced, "plinking" has become a thing of the past for many. I don't remember what prices were back then though. All I know is I plink far less than I used to.

Ammo was expensive 5 years ago.

 

[taylorss]

I don't really understand your comment or how it relates to my post

The charges clearly state murder in the course of a kidnapping. The PCA clearly sets out facts of a kidnapping. The existence of the murders is not contested, and the evidence of that will be presented at trial, so it discussed in a succinct manner. The defence is unlikely to contest that the abductor (on video) did the murders (obvious logical inference)

I’m confused too by comments that the case isn’t strong, but I think you hit on the essential issue here!

All the state has to show for the ‘murder’ prong of felony murder is that the girls’ deaths were by homicide

No need to show that they were killed with a bullet from RA’s gun or anything like that. RA’s role in the felony kidnapping that resulted in their murders is the whole case.

Defense’s only way out of conviction would be arguing one of the following:
- that wasn’t RA on Libby’s video
- when RA used a gun to menace & herd the girls off to the spot where they died, that somehow wasn’t kidnapping
- the girls’ death at the location RA took them to wasn’t by homicide

I can’t think of any other approaches off top of head but please add to this if anyone else has more ideas!!