Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #160

[asyousay]

I don't fear the police either, but neither am I going to stroll into a police station without a layer. While on the subject, the blame for false imprisonment does not rest solely upon some LE procuring false confessions. The blame rests also on judges, the appeals process, and other components of the justice system, including that it can take years, post conviction, for new evidence of innocence to be considered, if it's considered at all. MOO

Yes the UK that would be unheard of to walk into a police station if you was simply walking on off the street with a tip with a lawyer.

So completely different cultures.

 

[TrialLurking]

If you were on the jury, would you actually buy this story about the bullet? That it "accidentally fell out" (it has ejection marks) and landed in between the bodies of the two girls and just coincidentally, RA admits being across the bridge at the same time and also still has the same gun? And would you trust FBI forensics or the forensics of the defense?

Most juries go with believing LE experts, not hired defense experts.

How would this "innocent explanation" even get into the trial? Are you thinking the defense will put RA on the stand? Because they'd have to, to make that explanation and I don't think that's an option for them.

If I was on the jury, I would believe the bullet evidence. I think it places him directly at the crime scene. He puts himself at the Bridge at the exact times. Although, I don't know much about why and unspent bullet would be found between the bodies. Did he just leave it there for what purpose? Did he not know it ejected the chamber while chambering a second round? Just from what I have read, there were know other spent/unspent bullets at the scene.
I believe RA had been thinking about committing this type of crime for a very long time. He knew if he could get an individual trapped on that part of the south bridge, he could come up behind them and engage in his sick, twisted fantasy.

 

[TrialLurking]

In my opinion, he did not plan on murdering anyone that day. He passed other groups of girls on the paths that day and did not molest them. One group said "hi" to him but he pretty much ignored them, according to the Probable Cause Affadavit. When he left the bridge, he encountered Abby and Libby coming towards the bridge. See the Gray Hughes video on this (below). I believe something happened in their interaction as they passed each other on the path that upset him and them both. I hope the girls did not say to each other " what a creep" and he overheard. In the recording on Libby's phone, Libby's grandmother reportedly said they spoke of a "creepy guy" and "is he coming back" or something of that nature. See second Gray Hughes video below. So my theory is, he became upset at something one of the girl's said, and initially walked away, but then, after stewing abut it for a minute or two, he turned around and went back onto the bridge, following the girls, and things spun out of control. This is my opinion only.

Court documents released in Delphi murder case: Read the probable cause affidavit here

The affidavit does not indicate how Libby German or Abby Williams were killed Feb. 13, 2017. Read the probable cause affidavit here.

www.indystar.com

I think he was looking for victims on that very bridge. Wait for someone to walk on that bridge to the very end, trap them, and force them down the hill in a very remote part of the reserve. It could have been anyone.

 

[shane13]

I'm new to this thread. But it seems like using a bullet that they had for years w.o. tracing it is dubious. And why or how would someone just drop a bullet at the site of abduction. Does seem very sketchy. MOO.

 

[asyousay]

I'm new to this thread. But it seems like using a bullet that they had for years w.o. tracing it is dubious. And why or how would someone just drop a bullet at the site of abduction. Does seem very sketchy. MOO.

It was a highly emotional/frenzied time I would assume murdering two girls. He wasn’t somebody who had years of experience . Thank god he was an idiot and justice can hopefully be served.


Moo

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I'm new to this thread. But it seems like using a bullet that they had for years w.o. tracing it is dubious. And why or how would someone just drop a bullet at the site of abduction. Does seem very sketchy. MOO.

You need a suspected gun to trace a bullet. LE didn’t have this until RA came along.
That being said, my question would be was LE asking people that were on the bridge that day and any POIs if they owned guns and if they were testing them for ejector marks. If ejector marks are a true ballistic forensic thing, like LE says and I..kinda..think it is, then why would LE not be be testing guns of everybody they talked to?
Maybe they were, but I think we would know that, and I don’t think they were.

 

[Ontario Mom]

Whether one does or does not find racking ridiculous, ejecting an unspent round is utterly absurd in that moment, in that location, given that he'd just allegedly murdered two young teens! IMOO

Yes, I'm bloody from head to toe, but by all means, let me fumble around (while I'm dripping with slippery blood) and eject the racked round so I can what? Safely walk back to my car? Not drive with a loaded firearm? (Nothing anyone has suggested or that I've been able to conjure up in my mind makes a lick of sense here, imoo.)

For people who conceal carry, it's quite customary to carry a firearm that does not have a safety. I don't know if RA did or did not conceal carry. My point is that it's not necessary to unchamber the round to get back to his car safely.

Other considerations...
Okay, so he's not supposed to drive with a loaded handgun. He just allegedly murdered two young teen girls and is covered in blood, but he's going to mind his Ps and Qs on the lawful transport of a firearm? If he's pulled over, he's soaked in the victims' blood, and he's got way bigger problems than a chambered round in a firearm.

AMOO

The only witness I'm aware of that mentioned seeing someone, said he was muddy and bloody, like he'd been in a fight. I don't know what that means to that witness but she definitely didn't say "covered in blood" or covered head to toe.
I suspect he wasn't nearly as bloody as some might think he was.

I don't mean to be needlessly graphic but if he cut their throats (which is what I suspect he did) from behind, he would have been able to avoid the majority of the blood. While he was moving/staging them, then he would have certainly got blood on him, but not dripping head to toe.

jmo

 

[everybodhi]

Indiana?

LOL. Jumping between two cases

 

[jdglove]

This opinion pops up intermittently, so I'm not singling this post out with my reply. Why did he have his jacket stuffed with items, --some still unknown, and a gun we do "know" of, and a knife (they investigated the sale of?) if he had no plan that day?
So he passed other young girls in different logistics...tactically he was shrewd. I cannot imagine in a town of that size that he planned to rape and leave them alive and then go to work at CVS.
They were cat-fished*, so first comment from LE was "watch what your children are doing online." That internet trail of evidence was discovered on Libby's phone when they were still "just missing".
Source for this* evidence is sister Kelsi German at Comic Con.

It's not in the least unusual (in the US) for someone who owns guns and knives to carry them when on a hike. It is not remotely evidence of intent to hunt down and kill someone.

 

[Gemmie]

Whether one does or does not find racking ridiculous, ejecting an unspent round is utterly absurd in that moment, in that location, given that he'd just allegedly murdered two young teens! IMOO

SBMFF

Maybe "that moment" wasn't after he allegedly murdered them, perhaps it was done just prior to the murders in order to scare them into compliance. Maybe he said "Strip down" and they refused. Maybe one looked like she was about to bolt and needing "convincing" to stay put. It could be a number of reasons but the timing definitely does not have to be after the murders. It definitely could have been just prior to them IMHO.

 

[Marzipan]

Exactly Sparty, this is what I've said a few times. We don't know what they did or didn't do. My guess is that they were on to him rather quickly and were waiting for the right and precise evidence to snag him.

I’m going to post this article again for us to consider when thinking about if RA was already known by LE for sometime. Take it for what you think it’s worth. I think Leazenby would have to have zero ego whatsoever to say this if it were not true.

—-
“I’ve been in the business, our business, for a while and I thought, ‘Boy, how’d I even miss that one?” Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby, who’s been in law enforcement for 36 years and whose department assisted in the multi-agency investigation, told IndyStar.

Leazenby suddenly found himself trying to recall any bit of conversation he had with Allen ― the kind of pleasantries one has every day with someone ringing up a customer.
——

Delphi murder suspect Richard Allen: Indiana town wants answers about man who 'blended in'

Five and a half years after two teen girls were slain, Delphi, Indiana resident Richard Allen has been arrested in the case. His community is shocked.

www.indystar.com

 

[Boxer]

I'm new to this thread. But it seems like using a bullet that they had for years w.o. tracing it is dubious. And why or how would someone just drop a bullet at the site of abduction. Does seem very sketchy. MOO.

Why sketchy?
It fits their “if we find this individual we have the evidence.”
Tool marks are good evidence. Murder is chaotic, not like a burger flipping, emotions run riot and murderers often drop things and make mistakes.
True the ambushing of the girls looked skilled, but the exit plan not so much. By 3:15 DG had already called the phone, and was physically calling on the trail, alerting everyone, stopping anyone he could talk to.
BG’s Bridge Creek exit option was also maybe cut off by DG going down the Nature Trail first to the Deer and Bridge Creeks confluence.

 

[Boxer]

I’m going to post this article again for us to consider when thinking about if RA was already known by LE for sometime. Take it for what you think it’s worth. I think Leazenby would have to have zero ego whatsoever to say this if it were not true.

—-
“I’ve been in the business, our business, for a while and I thought, ‘Boy, how’d I even miss that one?” Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby, who’s been in law enforcement for 36 years and whose department assisted in the multi-agency investigation, told IndyStar.

Leazenby suddenly found himself trying to recall any bit of conversation he had with Allen ― the kind of pleasantries one has every day with someone ringing up a customer.
——

Delphi murder suspect Richard Allen: Indiana town wants answers about man who 'blended in'

Five and a half years after two teen girls were slain, Delphi, Indiana resident Richard Allen has been arrested in the case. His community is shocked.

www.indystar.com

The CVS is literally 1000 ft from the Sheriffs offices. MOO RAnhad many, many contacts with CCSO.

But it just shows how typical BG was for the area, his shortness maybe the only notable characteristic.
Other than my own feeling that the look he has on the bridge is the same kind of darting predatory look.
For a long time, store supervisor was one if my feelings about BG’s posture and look. (Also thought a machinist, printer)

 

[steeltowngirl]

I refuse to believe that anything Libby and Abby said (ex: ‘creepy guy‘) contributed to their own murders.

If I’m proven wrong later, I will own it in a future thread. But for now, that theory is - for me - a hard NO.

We will learn the real motive during the trial, but whatever it was, their murders were 100% the direct and sole responsibility of the person who murdered them.

jmo

 

[Chelly]

The only witness I'm aware of that mentioned seeing someone, said he was muddy and bloody, like he'd been in a fight. I don't know what that means to that witness but she definitely didn't say "covered in blood" or covered head to toe.
I suspect he wasn't nearly as bloody as some might think he was.

I don't mean to be needlessly graphic but if he cut their throats (which is what I suspect he did) from behind, he would have been able to avoid the majority of the blood. While he was moving/staging them, then he would have certainly got blood on him, but not dripping head to toe.

jmo

Agree with your theory about his position while slashing....I have also wondered if he removed his jacket and possibly shirt prior to killing to prevent getting blood on clothing.

 

[Gemmie]

I refuse to believe that anything Libby and Abby said (ex: ‘creepy guy‘) contributed to their own murders.

If I’m proven wrong later, I will own it in a future thread. But for now, that theory is - for me - a hard NO.

We will learn the real motive during the trial, but whatever it was, their murders were 100% the direct and sole responsibility of the person who murdered them.

jmo

While Abby & Libby very well could have called RMA a creepy guy, we'll never know that unless LE tells us that was also on the 43 second video Libby took. What we know for sure is that 1 of the 3 juveniles called him a 'kind of creepy'. Page 2 of the 8 page PCA.

Court documents released in Delphi murder case: Read the probable cause affidavit here

The affidavit does not indicate how Libby German or Abby Williams were killed Feb. 13, 2017. Read the probable cause affidavit here.

www.indystar.com

 

[mrjitty]

Felony Murder in Indiana in a non-bailable offense:

I.C. 35-33-8-2 states, “Murder is not bailable when the proof is evident or the presumption is strong. In all other cases, offenses are bailable.” This results in almost all people being charged with murder at least initially, being held without bond. However, that is not the final answer. The statute evident proof and showing a strong presumption.

This portion of the statute allows a defendant to request, by motion, that the court allow a bail in a murder case when the proof is not evident or the presumption is not strong. The Indiana courts have addressed this in numerous cases. The leading case in this area of law is Fry vs. State, 990 N.E.2d 429 (Ind. 2013). In this Indiana Supreme Court case the, the Court decided a number of issues regarding bail in murder cases. First, the Court found that the burden to establish a defendant is not entitled to bail rests with the State.

I think the proof is evident and presumption strong here. It will be determined in a PH I expect.

MOO

I understand from MS podcast lawyer guy that the Prelim and Bail hearing are likely held together - which makes sense. The prosecution has to show it has enough evidence to go to trial, which is the opportunity to assess bail

 

[shane13]

Do we know which attorney and which PI Steve G hired?

 

[GatorFL]

If I was on the jury, I would believe the bullet evidence. I think it places him directly at the crime scene. He puts himself at the Bridge at the exact times. Although, I don't know much about why and unspent bullet would be found between the bodies. Did he just leave it there for what purpose? Did he not know it ejected the chamber while chambering a second round? Just from what I have read, there were know other spent/unspent bullets at the scene.
I believe RA had been thinking about committing this type of crime for a very long time. He knew if he could get an individual trapped on that part of the south bridge, he could come up behind them and engage in his sick, twisted fantasy.

You would believe something that hasn't been presented yet? As a juror your duty would be to consider arguments from both sides, then decide.

The BBM above, where have you read there were other spent/unspent bullets at the scene? I have not heard that.

 

[GatorFL]

Why sketchy?
It fits their “if we find this individual we have the evidence.”
Tool marks are good evidence. Murder is chaotic, not like a burger flipping, emotions run riot and murderers often drop things and make mistakes.
True the ambushing of the girls looked skilled, but the exit plan not so much. By 3:15 DG had already called the phone, and was physically calling on the trail, alerting everyone, stopping anyone he could talk to.
BG’s Bridge Creek exit option was also maybe cut off by DG going down the Nature Trail first to the Deer and Bridge Creeks confluence.

BBM. I'll have to reserve judgment on the ejector marks. I am not familiar with them ever being used in a trial before so I'll have to see both sides to determine if it is an accurate or bunk science.