Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #160

[GatorFL]

You need a suspected gun to trace a bullet. LE didn’t have this until RA came along.
That being said, my question would be was LE asking people that were on the bridge that day and any POIs if they owned guns and if they were testing them for ejector marks. If ejector marks are a true ballistic forensic thing, like LE says and I..kinda..think it is, then why would LE not be be testing guns of everybody they talked to?
Maybe they were, but I think we would know that, and I don’t think they were.

I think you would need either a warrant or permission to test.

 

[AC4RD]

Why couldn't it be the source?

(unspent round ejected at the "GDTH" point couldn't be the source of the round found with the bodies unless BG did it deliberately, which I implied in my message but didn't explain; your msg respectfully snipped for focus.)

Sorry, this has probably been answered better by others; I'm unable to keep up with the number of messages lately. But:

Just personally, it seems likely to me that BG may have racked the slide to intimidate the girls. It's certainly a frightening sound if the gun is pointed at you! And if he did do that, it was at the end of the bridge when he said "GDTH," and it MIGHT (IMO) be the "gun sound" rumored to be on the BG audio. (And it might well NOT be the 'gun sound,' LE may know but we don't.) We know "he's got a gun" is on the audio, so he WAS using the gun to scare the girls. Racking the slide would emphasize the gun's menace in the girls' minds, I'm sure.

Brief digression: everybody I know who carries a pistol carries with a live round in the chamber and the safety on. That's just how you do it if you might actually NEED to use the pistol. He couldn't shoot it at the trails without possibly alerting people nearby--that .40 caliber pistol would be loud. But also IMO he certainly wasn't on the trails with an unloaded pistol; that would increase his own danger. As you said yourself, if you might need a pistol, you carry it loaded, QED.

SO: If there was a clip in BG's pistol at the end of the bridge, when he said DTH, and a round in the chamber, racking the slide (which certainly would intimidate the girls) would eject the unshot bullet and chamber the next round in the clip (magazine.) If he DID do that to scare the girls, it would be a really good idea to pick up that round, though who knows what's going on with a murderer abducting innocent kids? Maybe he wanted to but was busy, maybe he was too full of excitement to think of it ...

Here at last is my own answer to your question: This intimidation at the initial contact (a scare to accompany "G,DTH") means if a bullet was ejected, it is (again IMO) not the bullet that was found between the bodies, which was far away from the end of the bridge and long after the girls had been intimidated into compliance, right? Unless it was deliberately picked up and brought to the murder scene. Since the audio ends after "GDTH," a 'gun sound' at the murder scene, after crossing the creek, would not be on the audio. So the round at the bodies would not have been from racking the slide at the end of the bridge, 200 yards (or whatever) away--unless BG deliberately picked that round up and later placed it with the bodies as a bizarre murderer's signature, a way of memorializing his loathsome kill.

He might have racked the slide at both places (bridge and murder location) for intimidation, and he picked up the unspent round at the end of the bridge, but not at the murder scene, for whatever reason. Possible IMO but less likely. Which suggests to my own underpowered brain that the cartridge found with the bodies is more likely to have been a "calling card," a signature. MHO, of course.

I'm so glad there's finally an arrest in this case! Now that I know the wheels of justice are in motion at last, I feel like I can relax a bit, if you know what I mean. The girls deserve a proper and just conclusion to the case, IMO.

 

[tmar]

I think he was looking for victims on that very bridge. Wait for someone to walk on that bridge to the very end, trap them, and force them down the hill in a very remote part of the reserve. It could have been anyone.

Could the plan be: RA directs girls down the hill, where there is another creep waiting ie. TK?

RA also goes down hill: both creeps involved, accounting for RA's bloody, dirty clothes.

All MOO.

 

[taylorss]

Thinking back on LE comment on arrest that RA was “very very helpful”… odd, kinda bitter comment discussed here at the time …
?? maybe RA was so so helpful cuz he took on an active citizen role supporting the investigation ?
Maybe his name is in the files for some other role & they’re embarrassed for that to get out …. JMO just speculating

 

[minazoe]

was just watching the Texas Killing Fields on Netflix and I also read a book about the I 45 murders..but interesting two of the biggest suspects were both so helpful at the time of the murders being discovered...one was super involved because it was his property..( but cops thought overly so)...the other popped right up with a helpful hand and a blouse he found near the search area.

it really is true that a killer with guilty knowledge will want to involve himself in the police work and searching..even JBC did this while his victim was in the basement..he actually pretended to be looking for her!

 

[Dre]

its likely already been said but I happen to believe that RA put that bullet in his pocket as he didn't want to shoot/make noise, he wanted to use it for intimidation but rather use the knife to kill them.
during the staging of the bodies I feel that the bullet fell out of his pocket and he likely didn't think about it, otherwise perhaps he would have gotten rid of the gun that would correspond.
Moo

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I think you would need either a warrant or permission to test.

Yes. I don’t think it would have been difficult to get a warrant if the person admitted to being in the close vicinity of a double homicide.
Nevertheless, my point was that LE apparently never asked about guns and never tested any for ejector marks prior to RA.


edit: goofed up

 

[GatorFL]

It's not in the least unusual (in the US) for someone who owns guns and knives to carry them when on a hike. It is not remotely evidence of intent to hunt down and kill someone.

Yeah I went hiking today and I had both a knife and a loaded gun in my pack. Boy Scout motto is "Be prepared" for a reason.

 

[minazoe]

added. on the helpful psychopath...

it's like they kind of enjoy playing the innocent role..

I guess this is duper's delight...he has no doubt he can fool you..always trust your intuition with people, they all have tells
and an astute person can sniff them.

 

[Trebor5591]

This opinion pops up intermittently, so I'm not singling this post out with my reply. Why did he have his jacket stuffed with items, --some still unknown, and a gun we do "know" of, and a knife (they investigated the sale of?) if he had no plan that day?
So he passed other young girls in different logistics...tactically he was shrewd. I cannot imagine in a town of that size that he planned to rape and leave them alive and then go to work at CVS.
They were cat-fished*, so first comment from LE was "watch what your children are doing online." That internet trail of evidence was discovered on Libby's phone when they were still "just missing".
Source for this* evidence is sister Kelsi German at Comic Con.

In my opinion, handgun and knife are easily explained--in a rural area of a midwestern state free from restrictive firearms laws, many men carry handguns routinely. <modsnip>

I don't think there is any agreement about what if anything he stuffed in his jacket. There are many theories--I recall some people seriously suggesting he had a puppy hidden inside his jacket! Perhaps he has nothing stuffed in his jacket. My opinion only.

 

[CCJD]

I don't think there is any agreement about what if anything he stuffed in his jacket. There are many theories--I recall some people seriously suggesting he had a puppy hidden inside his jacket! Perhaps he has nothing stuffed in his jacket. My opinion only.

RSBM

The baby goat ...

Found Deceased - IN - IMAGE discussion re Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi

I estimated the POI/BG height and placed him in this approximate location first considering there were 2 white spots on the side rail. That position would have placed Libby on either the last platform or slightly off the bridge. If Abby had been taken the shot from the platform, I would have...

www.websleuths.com

 

[GoBuckeyes]

If you were on the jury, would you actually buy this story about the bullet? That it "accidentally fell out" (it has ejection marks) and landed in between the bodies of the two girls and just coincidentally, RA admits being across the bridge at the same time and also still has the same gun? And would you trust FBI forensics or the forensics of the defense?

Most juries go with believing LE experts, not hired defense experts.

How would this "innocent explanation" even get into the trial? Are you thinking the defense will put RA on the stand? Because they'd have to, to make that explanation and I don't think that's an option for them.

They can use their defense experts to cast doubt on the validity of the argument altogether that the bullet came from his handgun. (I've asked before, and I repost here. Is anyone aware of evidence admitted at trial in which an unspent round was connected to a handgun via ejector marks alone? I've searched and can't find any examples. If anyone knows of one or more, please share. I'd like to read about it )

Further, they can prove, by questioning a defense expert, how unlikely is the entire scenario. Who found the bullet? When was the bullet discovered? They can question the state experts as well, as far as did RA have a conceal carry permit; was his handgun registered; when was the bullet found; and, most importantly, if it was just a matter of matching an unspent round to a gun, why did it take them so long? Even if they have his DNA on the unspent round, if it's not recovered from one of the bodies, or their DNA from one or more of his possessions, the case is on shaky ground...imoo. A man with no criminal record to speak of, I'd need more compelling evidence than a casing loosely tied to a handgun that he owns and a chorus of "it resembles" evidence. MOO

If I were on the jury, I could be convinced regarding the round, depending upon precedent and multiple expert testimony, but I would need all of that.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

In my opinion, handgun and knife are easily explained--in a rural area of a midwestern state free from restrictive firearms laws, many men carry handguns routinely. <modsnip>

I don't think there is any agreement about what if anything he stuffed in his jacket. There are many theories--I recall some people seriously suggesting he had a puppy hidden inside his jacket! Perhaps he has nothing stuffed in his jacket. My opinion only.

I'll admit it. I was one who suggested he had an animal in his jacket. I suggested a baby goat, due to a different POI altogether at the time. (Still outlandish, I know.) I've been wrong many times about many cases. I guess it's not always wise to apply logic to irrational people or acts, but I continue to try to make that square evidence fit in a round hole of logic.

<modsnip: no source link>

 

[Gemmie]

added. on the helpful psychopath...

it's like they kind of enjoy playing the innocent role..

I guess this is duper's delight...he has no doubt he can fool you..always trust your intuition with people, they all have tells
and an astute person can sniff them.

Speaking of sniff them... I wonder how dogs feel when he's near? Anxious? Flop on their back for tummy rubs? I'm serious with my question. Dogs know and if a dog I know is wary of someone my guard goes up. Same for cats. They can sense things too. I can't tell you how many times cats, whose owners say "S/he doesn't like anyone" is all over me. They love me but I love them back and I'm a good person. They sense that. I've astounded many cat parents. lol

So I wonder if they growl, if their tail gets tucked, if they go behind their human, or what when it comes to RMA? I would love to know how the animals act around him.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

You can also argue the fact though that he didn’t come forward when he wasn’t questioned weeks after they were found.


That’s certainly suspicious because anybody innocent would have thought “ well the police haven’t come knocking after I placed myself on the bridge and look like BG” il chase them up. IMO


I am sure I am not alone in that thinking either that if innocent you would do all you could to help the investigation and he was literally right there.

I don't see it as suspicious at all. If he's innocent, why would it occur to him any more than anyone else that he looks like bridge guy? No one is discussing in hindsight how it was so obviously RA. He told the person he reported to initially that he didn't see them, or similar words. If X number of people were there that afternoon, and X number of people didn't see anything of note, why is it suspicious that he didn't track down LE, only to again say that he saw nothing of note? Maybe I'm not seeing what you are, and I might just be missing something that to others is really obvious??

 

[Boxer]

RA was on the first platform of MHB when a witness saw him there at approximately 1:55.
RA was on the MHB platform per his own account.

Witness accounts and RAs account of where his car was parked, clothing he wore, and who he encountered align up to this point.

However this is where accounts diverge, just before 2:00pm.

-The witness who saw him on the platform also saw the girls as she turned around at the MHB and went back down the trail.

-RA said he did not see girls as he left the MHB.
However, he should have passed A&L on the trail just as the witness did.

Minutes later at 2:13 the girls were abducted from the bridge.

The 2:13 images Libby captures are of BG coming up on them, following closely behind Abby - One of the girls says “gun” and BG orders them down the hill.

 

[WingsOverTX]

Thinking back on LE comment on arrest that RA was “very very helpful”… odd, kinda bitter comment discussed here at the time …
?? maybe RA was so so helpful cuz he took on an active citizen role supporting the investigation ?
Maybe his name is in the files for some other role & they’re embarrassed for that to get out …. JMO just speculating

The DA doesn't charge on speculation. The charges are very clear and very serious.

Very little evidence to support the charges is currently in the public domain. That does not mean they don't have at least adequate evidence to support those charges.

This case has reached way beyond mistakes causing embarrassment. The man charged with the murders is jailed without bond.

In my view, it's all a game to RA. He knew they would eventually come for him. He places himself at the scene of the crime but pleads not guilty, knowing probably 99% of what they've got on him.

Did he kill before the horrific murders of A & L? Has he killed since?

That's what I want to know.
MOO

 

[5W's]

I'm new to this thread. But it seems like using a bullet that they had for years w.o. tracing it is dubious. And why or how would someone just drop a bullet at the site of abduction. Does seem very sketchy. MOO.

Could it be a mistake on his part? He accidentally did so? He didn't realize at the time he had done so, if that's possible IDK. Or perhaps he wasn't thinking and he made an error and didn't realize he did so at the time? Ya his actions were very strange. Like he's bloody and has mud on him, looks like he got in a fight and a witness sees him. What was he thinking like he could just get away with it? I mean, he even placed himself there its just too bad that the interview was filed away for years. Otherwise I'm sure he would have been caught a long time ago. Look, I don't blame LE for this errror (FBI) I blame the the person who filed it away, although maybe thought it was for a good reason to file it away. However, I am disappointed at that person to perhaps overlook how brutal it was, of course we honestly don't know if the person who filed it away was privvy to what happened to the girls. I for sure thought that there was going to be some type of discretion on the part of the killer, but no, not here, surprisingly! If one thinks about it a little more the killer appears so non chalant and is not thinking normal as we can see here in this case but the killer is more interested in the kill than conseqeunces. Maybe not mindful IDK, but it is really unsettling. In my comments on other cases this really catches my attention. Its like what are you thinking? What is the non chalant behaviour for? To prove something to yourself or others? IDK so weird.

 

[5W's]

Speaking of sniff them... I wonder how dogs feel when he's near? Anxious? Flop on their back for tummy rubs? I'm serious with my question. Dogs know and if a dog I know is wary of someone my guard goes up. Same for cats. They can sense things too. I can't tell you how many times cats, whose owners say "S/he doesn't like anyone" is all over me. They love me but I love them back and I'm a good person. They sense that. I've astounded many cat parents. lol

So I wonder if they growl, if their tail gets tucked, if they go behind their human, or what when it comes to RMA? I would love to know how the animals act around him.

I wish we knew how that intuition works. But not always, though. I've seen on Websleuths where animals have been harmed as their owner was. I guess perhaps animals don't have a guard up like humans do.

 

[everybodhi]

Yes. I don’t think it would have been difficult to get a warrant if the person admitted to being in the close vicinity of a double homicide.
Nevertheless, my point was that LE apparently never asked about guns and never tested any for ejector marks prior to RA.


edit: goofed up

If I remember correctly there were other warrants issued after the murders, people’s homes were searched.
I can’t imagine they did not ask the people who were searched if they owned any guns or knives, like they asked RA and his wife.
They can’t check ejector marks without a gun for comparison. Maybe they did check the ejector marks against other guns found in other search warrants but they didn’t match.
They kept the information from the public that one of the girls said “gun” and that they had found a bullet at the crime scene so that the perp would not know they had this piece of evidence, hoping he would not dispose of the gun. Which worked. Allegedly.