Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #161

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

Seeing this case in the ‘Currently Awaiting Trial’ section is something I never thought would happen in my lifetime.
I’m so grateful that we have finally arrived here!

moo jmo ymmv

 

[Prime8]

While prosecution may be obligated to turn over discovery, what if they don't? The defense wouldn't know if they had anything, would they?

How does the sealing of documents work? Who gets to see those docs; I know the public does not.

Summary of discovery: 9-5.000 - Issues Related To Discovery, Trials, And Other Proceedings

Basically, the prosecution's case is fu*&#d if they don't turn over discovery and it could lead to a mistrial or it could overturn a verdict. Holding back discovery is often found out when there is a whistle blower (when it's deliberate) or the documents are found later by someone. A good prosecutor and their team isn't going to hid evidence.

 

[gizmobtj]

Who do you mean by "we?" I don't disagree, at all, just wondering who you mean.

Just those of us who are in the "someone else is likely to be involved" camp

 

[somequestions]

During an interview giving by former prosecutor Ives, he said that there was so much evidence in this case that a detective from the 1960''s or 70's could solve this case, and that was not including the new forensic investigative techniques that investigators have available to them today.

That is why this case is strange. I thought the probable cause affidavit would at least have some sort of strong physical evidence in it. Once investigators had a name they would have all the evidence they needed once they matched it to the evidence at the crime scene.

The discovery evidence was described as voluminous. I suppose that is where all the evidence is regarding the current suspect. It was not in the probable cause affidavit. Maybe he is the killer and there is DNA evidence or some other solid evidence, but at this time it is hard to conclude he is the killer with any certainty. And in my opinion, the video is too grainy to come to any solid conclusion about the person pictured in it. There are certain aspects of the video, like the thin material of the blue jacket, that make me think it is a blue windbreaker and not a blue jacket. But I agree there is no way for sure to come to that conclusion about the jacket.

 

[gizmobtj]

During an interview giving by former prosecutor Ives, he said that there was so much evidence in this case that a detective from the 1960''s or 70's could solve this case, and that was not including the new forensic investigative techniques that investigators have available to them today.

That is why this case is strange. I thought the probable cause affidavit would at least have some sort of strong physical evidence in it. Once investigators had a name they would have all the evidence they needed once they matched it to the evidence at the crime scene.

The discovery evidence was described as voluminous. I suppose that is where all the evidence is regarding the current suspect. It was not in the probable cause affidavit. Maybe he is the killer and there is DNA evidence or some other solid evidence, but at this time it is hard to conclude he is the killer with any certainty. And in my opinion, the video is too grainy to come to any solid conclusion about the person pictured in it. There are certain aspects of the video, like the thin material of the blue jacket, that make me think it is a blue windbreaker and not a blue jacket. But I agree there is no way for sure to come to that conclusion about the jacket.

Perhaps there is a ton of evidence but they have not been able to link it to Richard Allen, maybe? I too am at a loss but that's my only guess ...

 

[getthefax]

Summary of discovery: 9-5.000 - Issues Related To Discovery, Trials, And Other Proceedings

Basically, the prosecution's case is fu*&#d if they don't turn over discovery and it could lead to a mistrial or it could overturn a verdict. Holding back discovery is often found out when there is a whistle blower (when it's deliberate) or the documents are found later by someone. A good prosecutor and their team isn't going to hid evidence.

I read this to mean that they were going to turn over all evidence, but weren’t going to formulate and hand the defense strategy over on a silver platter; the prosecution will deliver the facts and evidence only, and won’t go to the trouble to point out that which is potentially exculpatory. MOO

 

[arielilane]

Delphi murders suspect Richard Allen mouths ‘I love you’ at two women in court before losing bid to move trial​

When two unidentified women arrived in court, Mr Allen – a married man with an adult daughter – was seen mouthing “I love you” to them. His wife and daughter have remained silent publicly since his arrest.

Delphi murders suspect Richard Allen mouths ‘I love you’ at two women in court before losing bid to move trial

At the hearing, Judge Fran Gull will weigh arguments on four issues: a gag order, a change of venue, a discovery request from Mr Allen’s attorneys and additional funding for investigators

news.yahoo.com

 

[everybodhi]

While prosecution may be obligated to turn over discovery, what if they don't? The defense wouldn't know if they had anything, would they?

How does the sealing of documents work? Who gets to see those docs; I know the public does not.

That would be a Brady Rule violation, the kind of thing that gets convictions thrown out on habeas corpus appeal, whether the prosecutor withheld evidence intentionally or inadvertently, they have a constitutional duty to disclose.
Not only must the prosecutor turn over any exculpatory evidence of RA, Brady also includes any evidence that may impeach witnesses, like a cop who is a witness in the case being under investigation or an informant witness being made promises or given a deal in another investigation, or even a witness who simply changes details of their testimony.
The caveat in Brady is that prosecutors must disclose exculpatory evidence only when it is “material either to guilt or to punishment”, which opens the door for the state to decide what evidence meets that standard, by elected prosecutors who sometimes value convictions over justice.
And another caveat, the Brady Rule only applies to cases brought to trial, in a justice system where 95% of cases are settled by plea bargain, which amounts to admitting guilt to a lessor charge.
Often it takes months to years for discovery to be completed, prosecutors can hold back until a plea deal is made by a defendant sitting in jail for years with no bail. Once a plea is made, Brady is no longer relevant, you’ve already given up your right to due process at trial by your guilty plea.
Jmo

 

[JudgeJudi]

The most recent Murder Sheet is in 3 parts:

A Defense motion for discovery
The Delphi Murders: A Defense Motion for Discovery

The Carroll County Sheriff's Office Lawsuits: Part One
The Delphi Murders: The Carroll County Sheriff's Office Lawsuits: Part One

The Carroll County Sheriff's Office Lawsuits: Part Two
The Delphi Murders: The Carroll County Sheriff's Office Lawsuits: Part Two

 

[Betty P]

Delphi murders suspect Richard Allen mouths ‘I love you’ at two women in court before losing bid to move trial​

When two unidentified women arrived in court, Mr Allen – a married man with an adult daughter – was seen mouthing “I love you” to them. His wife and daughter have remained silent publicly since his arrest.

Delphi murders suspect Richard Allen mouths ‘I love you’ at two women in court before losing bid to move trial

At the hearing, Judge Fran Gull will weigh arguments on four issues: a gag order, a change of venue, a discovery request from Mr Allen’s attorneys and additional funding for investigators

news.yahoo.com

Interesting. They’ll hold the trial in Carroll County, but will bring the jury in from another county.

 

[Betty P]

Thank you very much for sharing the links!

The ‘retired’ sheriff’s deputy seems to have been pushed out due to political reasons ultimately (imo) but turmoil may have been building ever since he suggested bringing in experts early-on to assist with A&L’s homicide investigation. I still don’t know what sort of experts he had suggested/ which aspect of the investigation he thought warranted outside experts. Maybe we will know that info pretty soon. There’s more I’d like to discuss about it, but I’m afraid that -for now at least- it’s getting a little OT from A&L’s thread. Maybe Thomas v. Carroll County, Indiana should have a thread of its own.

Before now, I’d heard chatter about this, but hadn’t seen any MSN reports. I’m not sure how I missed it, but I really appreciate you bringing it forward, along with the actual Court case information. Thanks again!

Sounds like he has good reason to file. They really should have brought in outside help early on. Small town/county LE should always do this when there’s a complicated murder in their jurisdiction. Few counties at that level have the assets or advanced training and experience to manage such murder investigations.

 

[Dotta]

Sounds like he has good reason to file. They really should have brought in outside help early on. Small town/county LE should always do this when there’s a complicated murder in their jurisdiction. Few counties at that level have the assets or advanced training and experience to manage such murder investigations.

Just as they did in Idaho.

 

[everybodhi]

Summary of discovery: 9-5.000 - Issues Related To Discovery, Trials, And Other Proceedings

Basically, the prosecution's case is fu*&#d if they don't turn over discovery and it could lead to a mistrial or it could overturn a verdict. Holding back discovery is often found out when there is a whistle blower (when it's deliberate) or the documents are found later by someone. A good prosecutor and their team isn't going to hid evidence.

Absolutely agree.
In Indiana, the prosecution has 30 days from service of discovery request to give the defense any evidence favorable to the defendant.
However, the are no due diligence obligations in Indiana.
What’s really frustrating is the cases you hear about that during appeal it is discovered that evidence recorded as collected during investigation is missing or has been accidentally destroyed. Especially when it’s material evidence with possible DNA and there’s nothing that can be done to fix that.

Treatment of Brady v. Maryland Material in United States District and State Courts’ Rules, Orders, and Policies

 

[FrostedGlass]

Absolutely agree.
In Indiana, the prosecution has 30 days from service of discovery request to give the defense any evidence favorable to the defendant.
However, the are no due diligence obligations in Indiana.
What’s really frustrating is the cases you hear about that during appeal it is discovered that evidence recorded as collected during investigation is missing or has been accidentally destroyed. Especially when it’s material evidence with possible DNA and there’s nothing that can be done to fix that.

Treatment of Brady v. Maryland Material in United States District and State Courts’ Rules, Orders, and Policies

12/30/2022

Motion Filed Supplemental Motion for Discovery and Request for Rule 404 and 405 Evidence Filed By: Allen, Richard M.

01/12/2023

Response to a Petition Filed Response to Motion Filed By: State of Indiana

Defense filed this motion for discovery but the judge didn't rule on it. Does that mean she's going to wait and see what prosecution turns over by the end of Jan?

As to the requests for discovery that prosecution refused to turn over, is that within his right to do so?

 

[sandy_80]

this is one case that would never have been solved if it wasn't for the suspect giving himself up on a silver platter ..he even admitted being at the crime scene.. wearing the same clothes.. and meeting witnesses without the presence of a lawyer
in case if one le wants to take any credit ..it wont happen

 

[everybodhi]

12/30/2022

Motion Filed Supplemental Motion for Discovery and Request for Rule 404 and 405 Evidence Filed By: Allen, Richard M.

01/12/2023

Response to a Petition Filed Response to Motion Filed By: State of Indiana

Defense filed this motion for discovery but the judge didn't rule on it. Does that mean she's going to wait and see what prosecution turns over by the end of Jan?

As to the requests for discovery that prosecution refused to turn over, is that within his right to do so?

Where are we hearing that the prosecution refused to turn over evidence? I assumed that was just “what if” speculation.
Sorry, I haven’t been keeping up with my websleuths threads but I’m not finding any reports of that in the media.
I’m only seeing that the trove of evidence will take time for the prosecution to gather and copy and then additional time for the defense to examine it all to prepare for trial.

What’s happening with the discovery request?
“The lengthy “Supplemental Motion for Discovery and Request for Rule 404 and Rule 405 Evidence” filed on Dec. 30 seeks the names and addresses of all witnesses involved in the case, including recorded or transcribed statements. Allen’s attorneys also want the names and addresses of individuals who may have knowledge of the case but aren’t being called as witnesses by the state.”
“The motion includes 29 components. It seeks everything from phone records and cell phone location data to written reports and witness accounts connected to the case, along with any investigatory information obtained by law enforcement.”

Here’s what happened during Richard Allen’s hearing in the Delphi case
BBM
“[Judge] Gull expressed skepticism that Allen’s trial would be on track for March 23, citing the “extraordinary, voluminous evidence” in the case that must be turned over to the defense.”

“Gull said she’ll hear arguments during the bail hearing [Feb. 17] on whether the trial can proceed as scheduled on March 23, although there are “thousands upon thousands” of pages of discovery for the state to turn over to Allen’s defense lawyers.”

“Gull also noted that the state has been “diligent” in turning over material to Allen’s lawyers.”

 

[FrostedGlass]

Where are we hearing that the prosecution refused to turn over evidence? I assumed that was just “what if” speculation.
Sorry, I haven’t been keeping up with my websleuths threads but I’m not finding any reports of that in the media.
I’m only seeing that the trove of evidence will take time for the prosecution to gather and copy and then additional time for the defense to examine it all to prepare for trial.

What’s happening with the discovery request?
“The lengthy “Supplemental Motion for Discovery and Request for Rule 404 and Rule 405 Evidence” filed on Dec. 30 seeks the names and addresses of all witnesses involved in the case, including recorded or transcribed statements. Allen’s attorneys also want the names and addresses of individuals who may have knowledge of the case but aren’t being called as witnesses by the state.”
“The motion includes 29 components. It seeks everything from phone records and cell phone location data to written reports and witness accounts connected to the case, along with any investigatory information obtained by law enforcement.”

Here’s what happened during Richard Allen’s hearing in the Delphi case
BBM
“[Judge] Gull expressed skepticism that Allen’s trial would be on track for March 23, citing the “extraordinary, voluminous evidence” in the case that must be turned over to the defense.”

“Gull said she’ll hear arguments during the bail hearing [Feb. 17] on whether the trial can proceed as scheduled on March 23, although there are “thousands upon thousands” of pages of discovery for the state to turn over to Allen’s defense lawyers.”

“Gull also noted that the state has been “diligent” in turning over material to Allen’s lawyers.”

Maybe this isn't considered discovery or evidence? (Can you tell I have no background in law, etc?) Plus, here are 29 requests total; so what about the other 11? Do we have an official copy of the motion? From the article:

"In his response to the defense motion, McLeland readily agreed to or provided clarification to 18 requests for information regarding the identity of witnesses, statements, case reports, the search warrant, evidence favorable to the defendant and other items that are typically covered by Indiana trial rules.
...
McLeland said he would not provide a statement attesting to exculpatory evidence favorable to Allen, nor a summary of the state’s opinions on statements made by Allen or witnesses, writing, “The Defense seems to be asking the State to do their work for them and formulate a defense for them,” and information about ongoing litigation by a retired Carroll County sheriff’s deputy, claiming he was demoted and targeted for retaliation because he offered an investigative alternative during the early days of the case that was rejected by Sheriff Tobe Leazenby."

Decisions made from today’s hearing to set the stage in Delphi trial

Special Judge Fran Gull will hold a hearing in Carroll County Circuit Court Friday to listen to arguments regarding a change of venue, a permanent gag order and a defense motion that lists 29 speci…

fox59.com

 

[CurtMarcucci]

Attorney John Tompkins, who is not involved in this case, was interviewed in the above Fox 59 article I linked to above. He lists these things as important for the defense atty to have access to: the entire investigative file, every interview that was ever done, every lead, every other suspect, what their sources of information were to see if they were trustworthy and reliable, the applications for search warrants to see if they were based on hearsay.

I'm really glad that RA's attys are on top of this. I'm bothered by the things that McL is not willing to hand over. He indicated that he thought it seemed like the defense was asking him to do their work for them; but if he did find evidence that was favorable to RA, is he justified in keeping it from RA's atty?

What McL is referring to is the defense request for summaries of statements. Let's say that there is a 4 hour recorded interview. The defense could 1) listen to the interview in its entirety or 2) read the summary of someone that listened to the interview. This would be, as McL put it, be doing the work for them. It would not be withholding exculpatory evidence to not provide a summary because the defense has already been provided the entire interview. The prosecution is required to hand over all evidence to the defense, not provide them a road map

 

[Betty P]

Sounds like he has good reason to file. They really should have brought in outside help early on. Small town/county LE should always do this when there’s a complicated murder in their jurisdiction. Few counties at that level have the assets or advanced training and experience to manage such murder investigations.

JMO

 

[phantomstrider]

Just peeking in to catch up but can’t believe there is still doubt RA is the man. Seriously BG had no shoulders. RA takes the same form in the oversized jail coat. I don’t know many men with shoulders like that and it would stand out to me.

The image of bridge guy is so blurry and grainy that it look like a lot makes in the Midwest so you can’t use that alone to say it’s Richard Allen.