IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #163

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I really suspect we will be hearing soon about other people involved in this.
It's just too weird that suspected child molester KAK was in touch with Libby very near the same time she was murdered by suspect RA.
There's more to this picture than we know at this time imo.
That's where I think the word "tentacles" comes from Carter. It's far reaching. moo
 
It sounds like they're attacking the gun evidence on two separate grounds:
1. The tool mark expert isn't a real expert and shouldn't be allowed to testify that the bullet matches the gun (Daubert hearing).
2. The search warrant for the house was invalid because LE lied in the affidavit supporting it (Franks hearing).
Many thanks for continued info. Is the issue with the actual “expert” or with the science in matching unspent shells?
 
I think it's a ploy to establish some mental condition that would help explain away his many confessions of guilt. Like his attorney said in the hearing basically "he doesn't know what he's saying". Good luck with that one.

I've said it often over these threads since his staged photo op with his weight loss, drool and awkward hand position, it's a defense strategy pure and simple. Once the Defense knew of those confessions, you can bet they devised a strategy to mitigate them any way possible.

ALL MOO

IF the confessions contain details only the killer would know, then it wouldn’t matter if he made the confessions while in decline or not, because they are details only the killer would know, therefore the confessions must be true. So, the strategy of faking it, and using this as some kind of defense ploy would be useless, because only he would know these details, so it can’t be “made up” in a state of decline - unless the judge ruled them inadmissible, despite these certain details, due to his condition under which they were made...could a judge do that? Rule a confession that contained details only the killer would know inadmissible if made under a declining mental state?

Sorry for any any rehash, time doesn’t allow me to keep up very well here.

Appreciate this discussion and great to see you all. :)
 
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IF the confessions contain details only the killer would know, then it wouldn’t matter if he made the confessions while in decline or not, because they are details only the killer would know, therefore the confessions must be true. So, the strategy of faking it, and using this as some kind of defense ploy would be useless, because only he would know these details, so it can’t be “made up” in a state of decline - unless the judge ruled them inadmissible, despite these certain details, due to his condition under which they were made...could a judge do that? Rule a confession that contained details only the killer would know inadmissible if made under a declining mental state?

Sorry for any any rehash, time doesn’t allow me to keep up very well here.

Appreciate this discussion and great to see you all. :)
Absolutely, spot on.
Remember the reports that the scene was 'staged'?
That is something, if accurate, that would only have meaning for the killer..
 
The thing about this for me, as far as the sympathy aspect goes, is I don’t know how someone in that situation could think having some sort of decline post-incarceration would make a jury any less inclined to convict in a case concerning the murder of two children. I guess I would think that that wouldn’t matter, that decline or not, people just aren’t going to have sympathy for a child murderer. I sure don’t, if he’s guilty.

So, in other words, it seems like common sense to understand that this wouldn’t work anyway. So why fake it when there’s no way that would make a difference...surely he doesn’t think faking a decline would gain actual sympathy and make a difference? Who knows, idk, but I certainly don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility for someone in his situation, guilty or not, to have a total breakdown. And again, it makes no difference as far as culpability to me, and probably to a jury, whether he’s had a breakdown post-incarceration or not. I would think he would realize this. But maybe he thinks it would and could make a difference, but I doubt it. I think it’s pretty clear nobody is going to have sympathy for whoever killed Abby and Libby, should the evidence be strong enough to prove this.
MOO Being a sad sack always worked before.
 
I really suspect we will be hearing soon about other people involved in this.
It's just too weird that suspected child molester KAK was in touch with Libby very near the same time she was murdered by suspect RA.
There's more to this picture than we know at this time imo.
That's where I think the word "tentacles" comes from Carter. It's far reaching. moo
I thought so too until I saw Libby had app Yellow. Yellow was out there, was called "Tinder for Teens."

<modsnip> As a result, multiple unconnected responses to her exposure does not seem as unlikely.
 
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Many thanks for continued info. Is the issue with the actual “expert” or with the science in matching unspent shells?
Good point, I didn't phrase that in the best way. A Daubert hearing is about evaluating the scientific reliability of an expert's testimony.

Here are the 5 factors the court is supposed to consider: (1) whether the theory or technique in question can be and has been tested; (2) whether it has been subjected to peer review and publication; (3) its known or potential error rate; (4)the existence and maintenance of standards controlling its operation; and (5) whether it has attracted widespread acceptance within a relevant scientific community.

From what I've read, I don't think the shell casing matching here meets those standards. But courts have generally accepted ballistic evidence, so they probably will here too. Maybe the expert will end up limited in what they can testify to, for example they might only able to say that the markings on the shell casing are consistent with it being in a gun like RA's, not that they prove it came from RA's gun.
 
The three juvenile witnesses told LE they saw a man on the trail near FB. I might be wrong, but I believe those juveniles were involved in the OBG sketch. JMO. At CrimeCon 2018, JH talked about how they investigated the witness claims for months until they were sure the man the witnesses saw was in fact on the trail and the man from L's phone, etc. All that time, LE was laser focused on this man the juveniles saw. (I have no idea how the April 2019 PC comes into play).

Well, in 2017, the only man the three juveniles saw also told a CO that he saw the three juveniles. So, however that information got lost in the shuffle, it was there all along, and they basically corroborated each others' stories. So, once LE went back and found that information, I think they jumped on RA because he was the man who saw the juveniles, therefore he was the man the juveniles saw.

Now, the key is what LE knew through their investigation that led them to believe so strongly that the man the juveniles saw was BG. Was it strictly the clothing and timing, or was there more? At that point in time, I don't think the gun was significant, at least not until an arrest. JMO.
If they described a man who had a spaced out look in his eye, walked oddly, or with purpose, that may have helped investigators. We don't know what they asked witnesses, or what witnesses may have spontaneously reported. I hope one day we find out though! Its a great point that they had the witnesses who saw a man, and the man saw them, and they realized somehow that this man was their suspect!
 
IF the confessions contain details only the killer would know, then it wouldn’t matter if he made the confessions while in decline or not, because they are details only the killer would know, therefore the confessions must be true. So, the strategy of faking it, and using this as some kind of defense ploy would be useless, because only he would know these details, so it can’t be “made up” in a state of decline - unless the judge ruled them inadmissible, despite these certain details, due to his condition under which they were made...could a judge do that? Rule a confession that contained details only the killer would know inadmissible if made under a declining mental state?

Sorry for any any rehash, time doesn’t allow me to keep up very well here.

Appreciate this discussion and great to see you all. :)
Yes a judge could do that. Just like if you are not read your rights by an arresting police officer, you could "confess" to something quite clearly and it cannot be used in evidence, at all.
 
Here's what I can find. Fwiw, I'm still not sure how to interpret it. MS describes the back and forth between lawyers, where the MSM seems to group statements together that I'm not sure where actually said consecutively.

Around the 1:16 mm of the MS episode, KGr describes (I'm only summarizing) that in Rozzi's closing statement, he states that the prosecution keeps bringing up the multiple confessions, but that it wasn't like that. He said that RA would say one thing, and then say another a moment later, that it wasn't like he broke down and told a consistent story.

And from this link:

Carroll County Prosecutor Nick McLeland told Judge Fran Gull that Allen, a 50-year-old father of two, had in fact made “multiple confessions to multiple people” since his arrest last October.

However, defense lawyer Bradley Rozzi argued that while Allen “made incriminating statements implicating himself in the crime,” he said they should be discounted in light of his client’s apparently flagging mental health. Rozzi and co-counsel Andrew Joseph Baldwin also claimed Allen’s alleged confessions were not consistent with his past denials.

“At one minute, Rick is saying one thing, and another minute he’s saying something else,
” Rozzi said.

Accused Delphi Killer ‘Confessed Five or Six Times,’ Prosecutors Say
This also isn't good for their client really. He's inconsistent. One minute its one thing, the next is something different -- how the hell is a jury supposed to know which is the truth and which isn't? I really hope there is a strong case against him if he is guilty!!
 
Agreed that the reporting on this is still murky. My speculation is that we are going to find out that his attorneys say he denied killing the girls to them and then later, after his "mental and physical decline," he made incriminating statements to other people that were inconsistent with what he had originally told his lawyers.

In order to be incriminating, I'm thinking his statement must contain information that is true about the crime; or, at least, not demonstrably false. I'm guessing his lawyers would not be so worried about this as they appear to be if his statements or admissions were inconsistent or contradictory about the facts of the crime?

I'm very interested to learn more about this.
He probably just said generic things like, they think I did it, so I did it.

I'd be more into the "confessions" if he gave up specific info about the before, during or post crime time. EG: how the crime scene was left. Or something specific. THAT would be the end for him in my view (if he was accurate) because who else would know this?

The only defense out of that would be if lawyers could demonstrate that investigators drip fed him information that he then recited back to others at some point.

As it is, I bet the statements are rather generic and without specifics, probably just a tactic by prosecution to sneakily garner more public support for trial.
 
Thanks for clarifying, my legal background is with financial institutions so my experience is with government regulators not the courts and judges.
Good point, I didn't phrase that in the best way. A Daubert hearing is about evaluating the scientific reliability of an expert's testimony.

Here are the 5 factors the court is supposed to consider: (1) whether the theory or technique in question can be and has been tested; (2) whether it has been subjected to peer review and publication; (3) its known or potential error rate; (4)the existence and maintenance of standards controlling its operation; and (5) whether it has attracted widespread acceptance within a relevant scientific community.

From what I've read, I don't think the shell casing matching here meets those standards. But courts have generally accepted ballistic evidence, so they probably will here too. Maybe the expert will end up limited in what they can testify to, for example they might only able to say that the markings on the shell casing are consistent with it being in a gun like RA's, not that they prove it came from RA's gun.
 
IF the confessions contain details only the killer would know, then it wouldn’t matter if he made the confessions while in decline or not, because they are details only the killer would know, therefore the confessions must be true. So, the strategy of faking it, and using this as some kind of defense ploy would be useless, because only he would know these details, so it can’t be “made up” in a state of decline - unless the judge ruled them inadmissible, despite these certain details, due to his condition under which they were made...could a judge do that? Rule a confession that contained details only the killer would know inadmissible if made under a declining mental state?

Sorry for any any rehash, time doesn’t allow me to keep up very well here.

Appreciate this discussion and great to see you all. :)
I'm wondering what it could be that only the killer knows. We know a number of LE and searchers, etc saw the crime scene. We know the autopsy report wasn't sealed for a few weeks after the murder; how likely is it that no one saw it?
RL probably had copies of his own PCA and search warrant; those had some telling info...who did he show them to?
 
This also isn't good for their client really. He's inconsistent. One minute its one thing, the next is something different -- how the hell is a jury supposed to know which is the truth and which isn't? I really hope there is a strong case against him if he is guilty!!

“……..were not consistent with his past denials.”

Notice the word “past”? That to me doesn’t indicate inconsistencies during one single conversation. When the defence attorneys first met with RA he probably told them he was Not Guilty, that would constitute a past denial too IMO. It goes without saying his attorneys are going to attempt to minimize his alleged confessions but whether it’s significant or not, we just don’t have enough information, as appears to be the trend regarding this entire case. I‘m beginning to believe everything that’s said has been artfully designed in advance to invite both attention and speculation. JMO
 
I really don’t know if RA is/was trying to change his appearance with the rapid weight loss, etc. or his physical decline is due to his incarceration and what awaits him in trial.

After watching some of those videos of him before the murders, it became apparent to me how he changed after the murders … gaining a bunch of weight and growing his beard long. Another thing I noticed is that he isn’t a tall man but not nearly as short as he appeared in that video when he was first brought into court.

As many, I am eagerly waiting to hear what those 5-6 confessions he made were all about … and other evidence. It has been a long wait for justice for these two young girls that lost their lives.



moo
 
I'm wondering what it could be that only the killer knows. We know a number of LE and searchers, etc saw the crime scene. We know the autopsy report wasn't sealed for a few weeks after the murder; how likely is it that no one saw it?
RL probably had copies of his own PCA and search warrant; those had some telling info...who did he show them to?
LE purposely holds back info that only the killer would know just for this very reason. It could be:

How he killed them, if stabbed where and how many times?
How he left the bodies, who was where, posed, if so in what manner?
Did he keep any trophies?
Does/did he have those in his possession?

ALL MOO
 
LE purposely holds back info that only the killer would know just for this very reason. It could be:

How he killed them, if stabbed where and how many times?
How he left the bodies, who was where, posed, if so in what manner?
Did he keep any trophies?
Does/did he have those in his possession?

ALL MOO
True; but my point was he probably isn't the only one who knows those things. We have no idea how many people those things have been leaked to.

One thing that he might be the only one who knows is: what is wrong with all the re-enactments. Or maybe there is something the police put out to the public that the killer knows is not true.
 
What differences you see between the video and RA?
It is a lot of small details in the video that probably do not matter much now.

1. Early on in the case when the still picture and video came out, the position of the gun in the bridge guy's jacket seemed to be for someone who was left-handed. In a video of Richard Allen playing pool he looked to be right-handed.

2. The height looked different than that of Richard Allen. But because of distance from where Liberty German took the phone video, it is hard to be sure about the height. The person in the video looked to be at least 5'9" tall although Richard Allen is described as 5'4" tall.

3. The facial features look more like someone who has deep facial tissue cheekline that falls down their face with a bigger nose. I thought maybe this person might have something wrong with their arms and legs as their physical stature when walking looks sort of slouched like they do not walk upright(and decreasing their height in the video).

4. The head covering looked like a floppy ear Swiss army type hat, not a ballcap. Maybe Richard Allen has a floppy ear Swiss army type hat? Out on the bridge, if it was a sunny day I thought Richard Allen might wear his sunglasses if he had them. The jacket in the video seemed to be of a thinner material, like a windbreaker instead of a Carhartt jacket. You can see what looks like the outline of a gun.

5. The last is timing of the bridge guy on the video. The picture of Abigail Williams was taken at 2:07pm. In the picture there does not look to be anyone behind her on the bridge and we know the picture taken before that by Liberty German of the entire bridge before Abigail Williams and Liberty German decided to cross shows no one on the bridge. The bridge guy video was taken at 2:13pm.

If Richard Allen had first crossed paths with Abby and Libby before Abby and Libby ever got to the beginning of the Monon High Bridge crossing, then why not abduct them and force them into the woods on that side of the bridge without having to cross the creek?

The one thing I definitely think is this was NOT a pre-planned crime meaning he was not completely certain of what he was going to do that day(if it is Richard Allen in the video which now most likely it is). I think even if Richard Allen went there with the intention of harming some victim that day, he must have sat around deciding what to do for at least 6 minutes. And even when he did decide what to do it does not take 6 minutes to cross the Monon High Bridge the way that person was walking when Liberty German videotaped them.

I suppose this makes sense now with the information about incriminating statements and confession by Richard Allen revealed in court yesterday. Richard Allen, with no criminal record, was deciding whether he should go through with it. He must have still been lurking around them within eyesight before Liberty German thought something was wrong when he decided what to do and began walking towards them at the end of the bridge.

At least as of yesterday, Richard Allen has made incriminating statements implicating himself in the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German so nothing really matters now, but these are the differences between what I saw in the video and Richard Allen.

The irony is that without the video I would think nothing about any of this and have no questions.
 
If RA confessed using details only the killer would know I don’t think the defence would be claiming the admissions shouldn’t be trusted due to his mental state.

RA is free to change his plea to Guilty and I‘d wonder why he didn’t do that if his confessions were sincere? But possibly his attorneys don’t want that to happen until they know the Prosecution’s evidence will stand up in court and represents a strong likelihood of conviction. So the confessions are RA’s means of acting out in a round about way against his attorneys? If so, will they drop him? Maybe interesting dynamics are at play here…. JMO
 
It is a lot of small details in the video that probably do not matter much now.

1. Early on in the case when the still picture and video came out, the position of the gun in the bridge guy's jacket seemed to be for someone who was left-handed. In a video of Richard Allen playing pool he looked to be right-handed.

2. The height looked different than that of Richard Allen. But because of distance from where Liberty German took the phone video, it is hard to be sure about the height. The person in the video looked to be at least 5'9" tall although Richard Allen is described as 5'4" tall.

3. The facial features look more like someone who has deep facial tissue cheekline that falls down their face with a bigger nose. I thought maybe this person might have something wrong with their arms and legs as their physical stature when walking looks sort of slouched like they do not walk upright(and decreasing their height in the video).

4. The head covering looked like a floppy ear Swiss army type hat, not a ballcap. Maybe Richard Allen has a floppy ear Swiss army type hat? Out on the bridge, if it was a sunny day I thought Richard Allen might wear his sunglasses if he had them. The jacket in the video seemed to be of a thinner material, like a windbreaker instead of a Carhartt jacket. You can see what looks like the outline of a gun.

5. The last is timing of the bridge guy on the video. The picture of Abigail Williams was taken at 2:07pm. In the picture there does not look to be anyone behind her on the bridge and we know the picture taken before that by Liberty German of the entire bridge before Abigail Williams and Liberty German decided to cross shows no one on the bridge. The bridge guy video was taken at 2:13pm.

If Richard Allen had first crossed paths with Abby and Libby before Abby and Libby ever got to the beginning of the Monon High Bridge crossing, then why not abduct them and force them into the woods on that side of the bridge without having to cross the creek?

The one thing I definitely think is this was NOT a pre-planned crime meaning he was not completely certain of what he was going to do that day(if it is Richard Allen in the video which now most likely it is). I think even if Richard Allen went there with the intention of harming some victim that day, he must have sat around deciding what to do for at least 6 minutes. And even when he did decide what to do it does not take 6 minutes to cross the Monon High Bridge the way that person was walking when Liberty German videotaped them.

I suppose this makes sense now with the information about incriminating statements and confession by Richard Allen revealed in court yesterday. Richard Allen, with no criminal record, was deciding whether he should go through with it. He must have still been lurking around them within eyesight before Liberty German thought something was wrong when he decided what to do and began walking towards them at the end of the bridge.

At least as of yesterday, Richard Allen has made incriminating statements implicating himself in the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German so nothing really matters now, but these are the differences between what I saw in the video and Richard Allen.

The irony is that without the video I would think nothing about any of this and have no questions.
we discussed his height, nature of uneven bridge, shadows etc in earlier threads.
regarding his clothing

'-He told investigators he was wearing blue jeans and a blue or black Carhartt jacket that day, and that he owned firearms. Police also interviewed his wife, Kathy, who confirmed he still owned a blue Carhatt jacket and that he had guns and knives in their home. '


 
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