IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #165

[Falling Down]

The theory that BG came from the south side was a hard one for me to let go of. However, the PCA is pretty convincing.

But then I still think about what Holeman said and I give up trying to figure things out. We talked a lot about that comment, with the "true details" ranging from something insignificant to something big. I've always thought the reenactments were pretty solid.

Why Police Have Not Released Details on the Murders of Libby German and Abby Williams from Delphi, Indiana

Since the 2017 murder of Indiana teens Libby German and Abby Williams, local authorities have not released any information about the cause or time of death of either victim, leading to rumors and speculation. We spoke with Indiana State Police First Sgt. Jerry Holeman about why the police are...

www.aetv.com

I can see why folks would think BG came from the SE end, after reading the PCA and the account from a witness stating BG was on Platform 1 on the bridge.

Maybe that's why Libby started recording, they didn't pass the killer on the trail, they passed him on the bridge. He turned around and followed them.

JMO

 

[Megnut]

Perhaps, with the clipped clip, LE hoped associates of BG would identify him... without having to associate BG as the murderer. As in, my neighbor looks like that, he even told me he was there that day, but never saw the girls.... it was only later that the audio was released, right? I think it was held back strategically, as with the rest of the video. They bring in a POI and he says, you got me, I was there, but I never saw the girls. Then BAM, they roll the rest of the footage. You wanna tell us NOW that you didn't see them? Looks kind of like you DID...

JMO

 

[Pyrite]

That he might have dropped the mag and then attempted to clear mud from the chamber and slide due to getting the gun muddy while climbing that steep muddy bank and then failed to catch the unexpended cartridge? That's probably the best theory I've come across yet for why an unspent cartridge was at the scene.

My thought is he picked up the ejected round at the bridge and put it in his pocket. Whenever he was doing what he did at the body site it fell out and he never noticed it.

 

[TheVisual]

That quote is from the Probable Cause to get authorization from the judge for the search warrant so yes, I do believe it. LE know what the video reveals. They were not giving it to us, they were giving it to the judge and only because some documents were recently released do we get to know what they know.

What’s your theory? The way I see it if BG had passed Libby and Abby on the bridge, they would not have been essentially trapped at the end of the bridge where he ordered them DTH. Instead they could’ve freely crossed over the bridge and onward back to the public trail system.

Didn't say he passed Libby. Just Abby. Once he had Libby corralled at the end (maybe with the gun), Abby was ordered to come on to the end of the bridge. What choice would she have had, he had the gun on Libby and she was already frightened by crossing the bridge. JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

Didn't say he passed Libby. Just Abby. Once he had Libby corralled at the end (maybe with the gun), Abby was ordered to come on to the end of the bridge. What choice would she have had, he had the gun on Libby and she was already frightened by crossing the bridge. JMO

Okay well if he passed Abby at some point he had to have been walking behind her before he passed her, if that’s what occurred.

The thing is the prosecution doesn’t have to prove precisely the sequence of events, only that it led to the evidence they believe proves the alleged killer committed murder.

 

[Ursamajr]

It is that 2:07pm upload picture of Abby and Abigail William's location on the Monon High Bridge itself that makes me wonder how the abductor was able to gain up to Abby's location on the bridge so quick if the video was not until 2:13pm.

The only answer I think of is that some point after the 2:07pm picture the girls were stopped or going very slow across the Monon High Bridge after the 2:07pm picture of Abby. Or the abductor was already closer to their location because he was on the southeast side.

That person could have been Richard Allen if he did not leave platform 1 and instead went across the bridge to the other side making sure to be off of the bridge before the 2:05pm or earlier picture of the entire bridge was taken by Liberty German. All of this is opinion. It is hard to determine the time delay in this case because of how fast or slow the abductor or the girls were moving on the trails and the bridge that day.

I feel like a broken record Libby could have taken that picture at 2:05 or 2:00. The 2:07 time stamp is when the Snapchat was posted and not necessarily when the picture was taken.

 

[TL4S]

If the killer was seen leaving the Monon High Bridge trail muddy and bloody walking along 300 North how were they not seen on the Hoosier Harveststore video surveillance walking down 300 N?

We're not given the exact location along 300 N where "muddy and bloody" guy was seen by the witness, we're only told what time she was seen driving past HH. He could have walked the woods and come out along that road already to the west of HH, where he wouldn't have passed it. Or he could have walked 300 N and then cut through the field behind HH. I don't think he was necessarily aware of the surveillance cameras on HH, but the fact that he was muddy and bloody makes me think he might have avoided walking along a main road, which would go past the HH, trail parking area, and a couple houses. Maybe just where he couldn't avoid it, like nearer the CPS lot. JMO.

 

[TL4S]

The theory that BG came from the south side was a hard one for me to let go of. However, the PCA is pretty convincing.

But then I still think about what Holeman said and I give up trying to figure things out. We talked a lot about that comment, with the "true details" ranging from something insignificant to something big. I've always thought the reenactments were pretty solid.

Why Police Have Not Released Details on the Murders of Libby German and Abby Williams from Delphi, Indiana

Since the 2017 murder of Indiana teens Libby German and Abby Williams, local authorities have not released any information about the cause or time of death of either victim, leading to rumors and speculation. We spoke with Indiana State Police First Sgt. Jerry Holeman about why the police are...

www.aetv.com

All the reenactments I've seen have similar scenarios: he approaches them at the end of the bridge, they go down the hill into the woods below the bridge, then he either walks them across the creek, or they run across the creek. From there we are just supposed to assume the rest of the crime happened at the final CS.

This is why I suspect more happened on the south side of the creek, before they crossed. Now we know he could have possibly spent an extensive amount of time with them and their clothing was off. We don't know where any of these things actually took place other than the murders, though, and if JH isn't just blowing smoke with his comment, then I believe what isn't accurate in the reenactments is the lack of anything happening before they crossed the creek. JH could have just as easily said, "I haven't watched any of the reenactments," or "reenactments aren't useful," or something like that, like he said about facebook posts. Instead, he's just pretty much shutting it down, letting us know that the public doesn't have the facts, and that's a good thing. JMO.

 

[Justice101]

All the reenactments I've seen have similar scenarios: he approaches them at the end of the bridge, they go down the hill into the woods below the bridge, then he either walks them across the creek, or they run across the creek. From there we are just supposed to assume the rest of the crime happened at the final CS.

This is why I suspect more happened on the south side of the creek, before they crossed. Now we know he could have possibly spent an extensive amount of time with them and their clothing was off. We don't know where any of these things actually took place other than the murders, though, and if JH isn't just blowing smoke with his comment, then I believe what isn't accurate in the reenactments is the lack of anything happening before they crossed the creek. JH could have just as easily said, "I haven't watched any of the reenactments," or "reenactments aren't useful," or something like that. JMO.

I think the fact that there was an access dirt road under the south end of the bridge would not give RA the cover he wanted. I think he was walking them back under the bride to the other tributary creek bed. This was a gouge in the land and very overgrown. I think that is where he wanted to take them.

When the girls bolted and ran across Deer Creek he just chased one of them down trying to get across or up the bank. This was ALSO a secluded place for him to hide them. In other words, I do not think he intended to cross Deer Creek..except maybe to do it from the other tributary creek southwest of the south end of the bridge and walk back across Deer Creek and come up about where his car was.

 

[FrostedGlass]

All the reenactments I've seen have similar scenarios: he approaches them at the end of the bridge, they go down the hill into the woods below the bridge, then he either walks them across the creek, or they run across the creek. From there we are just supposed to assume the rest of the crime happened at the final CS.

This is why I suspect more happened on the south side of the creek, before they crossed. Now we know he could have possibly spent an extensive amount of time with them and their clothing was off. We don't know where any of these things actually took place other than the murders, though, and if JH isn't just blowing smoke with his comment, then I believe what isn't accurate in the reenactments is the lack of anything happening before they crossed the creek. JH could have just as easily said, "I haven't watched any of the reenactments," or "reenactments aren't useful," or something like that. JMO.

We have someone saying there was a couple 'down under' and that woman taking pictures on the bridge...anyone else said to be around that end of the bridge during that timeframe?

I think BG and the girls could have been under the bridge while C was taking pictures.

 

[Justice101]

That's what I thought that the "argument" was actually loud talk from RA at the girls and them responding desperately.. that might sound like an argument from a distance.

 

[Megnut]

Question: (forgive me for having zero sense of the lay of the land) why DID he park where he did? How does that lot orient to the bridge? Short cut? Is there, outside of the crime, any logic or advantage to parking there? Seems like it's one of few places to park where others won't be parking.... but why not park on the cemetery road?

I think we have to assume he had no intention of becoming muddy and bloody....

But we can also surmise he wasn't inviting them down below the bridge to show them his stock app.

I don't think he ever intended to abduct them in his own car but we don't know that. He could have fully Dextered his car and trunk, shrink-wrapped the whole thing ....but he was backed in. He wasn't apparently planning for access to his trunk....

Where can you go from the bottom of the bridge? Outbuildings. Cemetery road.

Was he abducting them, marching them to another vehicle with another driver?

Was it personal to him and he was the end point, hard stop?

Why two? Why not reduce by one immediately, to have full, decisive control of the other one?

I have to ask -- that hour-plus, were they alive for that? One? Both? Just how much time did he spend arranging, staging, doing-whatever-he-was-doing? Were they dead by then? All the way dead? Nearly dead? Barely alive but playing dead, praying he'd be fooled and leave? Could one girl have been alive enough to reposition herself, such that she was found "not as you left them", her blood trail showing where she had been?

IF A and L were abducted as part of a CSAM ring and several actors conspired to pull it off, would they have been kept at a secure location indefinitely? Like the house of Horrors, or JayceeD? 15, 16, 17 years old...

Or, when LE said this case unearthed a huge CSAM ring, did they mean that their wormhole led into the discovery of a local cesspool of dark stuff, not related to this crime, just exposed by it?

I have to assume, with two victims, he must've come prepared. Rope, zip ties, something. Was the knife the weapon of choice or just his only choice, if the gun failed him?

Why didn't he approach the bridge more discreetly in the first place?

Why didn't he attempt an alibi to place himself 'not at the bridge that day'? Why didn't he take even greater care to conceal his car? Rent one, use someone else's, etc?

If this was pre-planned, and I believe it was, how close did what happened line up with what he planned to happen?

Was great bloodshed part of his original plan? Then why no convenient stash of clean clothes?

And where did he go next? Home?

Hard to imagine but it happens constantly on these threads. Viscious murder, murderer sits down and eats. Life just goes on.

For them.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

We're not given the exact location along 300 N where "muddy and bloody" guy was seen by the witness, we're only told what time she was seen driving past HH. He could have walked the woods and come out along that road already to the west of HH, where he wouldn't have passed it. Or he could have walked 300 N and then cut through the field behind HH. I don't think he was necessarily aware of the surveillance cameras on HH, but the fact that he was muddy and bloody makes me think he might have avoided walking along a main road, which would go past the HH, trail parking area, and a couple houses. Maybe just where he couldn't avoid it, like nearer the CPS lot. JMO.

Agree with you @TL4S RA was def trying to avoid the main road.

Investigators spoke with (redacted) who said she was traveling East on 300 North and observed a male walking West on the North side of 300 North away from MHB who appeared muddy and bloody, like he had gotten into a fight. Investigators obtained video footage from HH showing that (redacted) was seen traveling on CR North at approx 3:57 pm.

I also wonder if they have video of RA from HH that we don't know about yet?

RA could have been walking on the North side of W 300 N because he was just leaving the scene of the crime, which was on RL's property. He spent over 1 1/2 hours at the crime scene and I think he got spooked and had to get back to his car. Didn't Libby's dad try calling her cell phone multiple times and was out looking for them by then? Maybe he heard shouting?

He couldn't leave his car parked at the old CPS building, as LE would be checking out and identifying every car located nearby, especially considering the unusual way he backed into the far end of it away from other cars.

I still get nauseous thinking of that amount of time being spent with Abby and Libby. That's a long time for a suspect to stay at a crime scene in public during daylight. I don't want to think about what was happening.

MOO

 

[stacey_victoria]

Question: (forgive me for having zero sense of the lay of the land) why DID he park where he did? How does that lot orient to the bridge? Short cut? Is there, outside of the crime, any logic or advantage to parking there? Seems like it's one of few places to park where others won't be parking.... but why not park on the cemetery road?

I think we have to assume he had no intention of becoming muddy and bloody....

But we can also surmise he wasn't inviting them down below the bridge to show them his stock app.

I don't think he ever intended to abduct them in his own car but we don't know that. He could have fully Dextered his car and trunk, shrink-wrapped the whole thing ....but he was backed in. He wasn't apparently planning for access to his trunk....

Where can you go from the bottom of the bridge? Outbuildings. Cemetery road.

Was he abducting them, marching them to another vehicle with another driver?

Was it personal to him and he was the end point, hard stop?

Why two? Why not reduce by one immediately, to have full, decisive control of the other one?

I have to ask -- that hour-plus, were they alive for that? One? Both? Just how much time did he spend arranging, staging, doing-whatever-he-was-doing? Were they dead by then? All the way dead? Nearly dead? Barely alive but playing dead, praying he'd be fooled and leave? Could one girl have been alive enough to reposition herself, such that she was found "not as you left them", her blood trail showing where she had been?

IF A and L were abducted as part of a CSAM ring and several actors conspired to pull it off, would they have been kept at a secure location indefinitely? Like the house of Horrors, or JayceeD? 15, 16, 17 years old...

Or, when LE said this case unearthed a huge CSAM ring, did they mean that their wormhole led into the discovery of a local cesspool of dark stuff, not related to this crime, just exposed by it?

I have to assume, with two victims, he must've come prepared. Rope, zip ties, something. Was the knife the weapon of choice or just his only choice, if the gun failed him?

Why didn't he approach the bridge more discreetly in the first place?

Why didn't he attempt an alibi to place himself 'not at the bridge that day'? Why didn't he take even greater care to conceal his car? Rent one, use someone else's, etc?

If this was pre-planned, and I believe it was, how close did what happened line up with what he planned to happen?

Was great bloodshed part of his original plan? Then why no convenient stash of clean clothes?

And where did he go next? Home?

Hard to imagine but it happens constantly on these threads. Viscious murder, murderer sits down and eats. Life just goes on.

For them.

JMO

A murderer is a sick and twisted person. The average person will never know why. Sometimes at the end of the day it's the only answer I have.

 

[Yemelyan]

Agree with you @TL4S RA was def trying to avoid the main road.

Investigators spoke with (redacted) who said she was traveling East on 300 North and observed a male walking West on the North side of 300 North away from MHB who appeared muddy and bloody, like he had gotten into a fight. Investigators obtained video footage from HH showing that (redacted) was seen traveling on CR North at approx 3:57 pm.

I also wonder if they have video of RA from HH that we don't know about yet?

I think they do. And I think that there were rumors or leaks that had BG on other video (though not known yet to be RA) going around Delphi by 2021. See this question from a member of the public answered in the Q&A Leazenby did with the Carroll County Comet (bolding by me):

Q. Was video collected throughout Delphi from Feb. 13, 2017 including video from the building across from the abandoned CPS building (The Anderson’s)?

A. Multiple pieces of evidence, including anything technologically based, have been gained. At least information followed into or brought to the attention by the investigators.

Q. No matter how distant, do you have the man walking on the bridge, videoed by Libby, on any other video?

A. This is close to an evidentiary information question and I prefer not to respond.

Source: County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers - Carroll County Comet

 

[Justice101]

In regard to the time he spend with the girls, IMO I think he spent it trying to come up with a plan to make it look like a SA and how to hide the evidence. He probably removed their clothes so that he could dump them in the water to get his DNA off of them. He probably also took scoops and scoops of leaves from the actual killing spot and dumped them into the water of the creek.

I personally don't think he sat there and admired his work.

I think he was trying to do everything possible to stop from being identified.. scooping up leaves was probably when the bullet fell out of his pocket.

I hope to heck he didn't sit there to further defile them.

 

[CGBSpender]

I do not understand how the crime can be premeditated. According to the pictures there is a 2:05pm picture Liberty German took of the entire bridge before her and Abby started to walk across it. No one is in that photo. There is the 2:07pm picture of Abigail Williams and Liberty German took with the rest of the bridge looking back at the trail. There is no one in the background of that photo that is on the bridge either.

Let's suppose for a second the crime was premeditated. Maybe the bridge guy waited to abduct Abigail Williams and Liberty German until they got to the other side of the bridge where he could then order them down the hill. If the person who abducted Abigail Williams and Liberty German is someone who is familiar with the Monon High Bridge, why would he not position himself to abduct them on the southeast side of the bridge?

The reason that scenario does not make sense is that if the crime was premeditated then the killer had time to think about it before even going to the trails. They also must have had some more time to think about it before being recorded on video from Liberty German's phone at 2:13pm. But the strangest thing is the movement. Why not just wait until both girls had made it across the bridge and then wait for them out of sight on the other side?

But I would agree that there seems to be about 5-8 minutes of premeditation due to the timing of the pictures and the video. Yet if the crime was committed by a local, as it appears to be, then wouldn't that person know from previous experience whether or not that area of the trail has people around, especially since they would already be on the other side of the creek.

It makes me wonder if the reason for the delayed timing is because there was no delay. Someone saw an opportunity 5-8 minutes after Liberty German took those pictures but without the knowledge of the timing of those pictures.

I guess this is all a moot discussion point now, but I still wonder about the timing of the abduction, and it has everything to do with the video. I understand we might never get the answer to the 5-8 minute delay.

I'm not sure that I follow totally, but my thought was that the killer walked all the way down the bridge ahead of the girls (perhaps to make sure there was no one on the southeast side of the bridge)...turned around and walked back north, passing the girls at some point...and then once the killer was satisfied there was not anyone coming behind the girls (and no one on the southeast side ahead of the girls), he turned around again and headed southeast following them (i.e. when the video was taken).

JMO

 

[CGBSpender]

In regard to the time he spend with the girls, IMO I think he spent it trying to come up with a plan to make it look like a SA and how to hide the evidence. He probably removed their clothes so that he could dump them in the water to get his DNA off of them. He probably also took scoops and scoops of leaves from the actual killing spot and dumped them into the water of the creek.

I personally don't think he sat there and admired his work.

I think he was trying to do everything possible to stop from being identified.. scooping up leaves was probably when the bullet fell out of his pocket.

I hope to heck he didn't sit there to further defile them.

I hope not too, but LE saying, they think the bodies were moved and staged, and that he may have taken photos of the scene for later viewing makes me think otherwise.

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

In regard to the time he spend with the girls, IMO I think he spent it trying to come up with a plan to make it look like a SA and how to hide the evidence. He probably removed their clothes so that he could dump them in the water to get his DNA off of them. He probably also took scoops and scoops of leaves from the actual killing spot and dumped them into the water of the creek.

I personally don't think he sat there and admired his work.

I think he was trying to do everything possible to stop from being identified.. scooping up leaves was probably when the bullet fell out of his pocket.

I hope to heck he didn't sit there to further defile them.

I don't get it. If he went through all of that, why didn't he take a minute to clean himself up a bit...wipe the blood from his face or turn his coat inside-out? Maybe he was in such a frenzy that he didn't even think about being covered in blood?

From the crime scene, he could see the bridge and knew he was somewhat out of sight. Did something spook him so bad that he was frantic to leave the scene?

I can't imagine someone planning on killing someone in a particular area, then parking a mile away.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I think they do. And I think that there were rumors or leaks that had BG on other video (though not known yet to be RA) going around Delphi by 2021. See this question from a member of the public answered in the Q&A Leazenby did with the Carroll County Comet (bolding by me):

Q. Was video collected throughout Delphi from Feb. 13, 2017 including video from the building across from the abandoned CPS building (The Anderson’s)?

A. Multiple pieces of evidence, including anything technologically based, have been gained. At least information followed into or brought to the attention by the investigators.

Q. No matter how distant, do you have the man walking on the bridge, videoed by Libby, on any other video?

A. This is close to an evidentiary information question and I prefer not to respond.

Source: County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers - Carroll County Comet

I think they have more video of him too. I remember that Q and A and I took Leazenby’s non-answer answer as an admission they had more video from outside sources.
A lot depends on the route he drove to and from the trails. Delphi is a small town but if he drove from his house to the trails or vice versa and went through town, there are plenty of places he would pass that probably have security cameras. Banks, government buildings, schools etc.