IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #166

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Am I the only one who gets highly frustrated when RL gets mentioned still?

Maybe it’s because my Dad is 81 and I can not imagine the stress or fear he would go though if god forbid a body was found on his property. Too besmirch an innocents man name time and time again even when he is dead just leaves me cold.


He has never been named a suspect in this case either and even 6ft under with a man charged with the crime his name still gets dragged though the mud.


IMHO
I do too. I think the whole angle is just ridiculous. I've noticed that there is a small group of people who have insisted since day 1 that he is guilty and continue to do so even after RA's arrest. I really don't get why. JMO
 
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not sure. The question was about almost military-like organization. Abduct-incapacitate-kill-dress-redress-pose-crime scene, while leaving no DNA (and ostensibly, no footprints, otherwise we’d have some information about the size of the shoe in PCA. That doesn’t bode with the photos of a man I saw taken in jail.
His arrest was 5 years later. <modsnip - no link to source> So a physical decline makes sense.
The way his hand looked like it was almost tetany (low calcium) or maybe simply too tight handcuffs or something equally unpleasant.
Again, his pictures in jail were taken 6 years after the crimes took place.
Either he was part of the group - but then, where are the rest?

There is no evidence that there was a group or a cult present at the murders. No witnesses to a group, no forensics evidence of a group being there.
Or, there is some sense in what the defense says.
Nope, no sense to what the defense is trying to say, IMO
 
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Maybe Abby being dressed and Libby not is something as simple as Abby being only appr 100 pounds while Libby appr double that much, so he could handle the weight of Abby but not Libby?
I am still not convinced that Abby was even undressed in the first place, Will have to be confirmed from LE og Prosecutors before I Will be convinced.
True. The assertion that Abby was redressed in Libby's jeans and sweatshirt was from the defense. A very dubious source.
 
In agreement with Salah 11 about RL going to his grave slandered. His affect in an early interview convinced me that he did not murder, though may have feared revealing what he knew of it.
Did he investigate in the direction of the scene because of the noise?
Another 'close by' household (no longer mentioned by name) reported (early on) they mistakenly thought noises had been from a party at Ron Logan's that night. <modsnip - no link to source>
 
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To someone who is not in the US, it really pointed out the cultural differences. "Evil pagans did it" would so not fly in Europe. You'd have more luck with "evil Christians did it", imo (especially with a sexual component).

Frankly, the released memorandum actually increased my impression that RA is probably guilty, instead of decreasing it. The defence could have presented evidence that RA was somewhere else at the time of the murders, they could have presented evidence that something factual connects a third person to the crime, they could have proved that RA is ruled out as a match to the BG in the video, they could have shown that, I don't know, RA was sleeping with the lead detectives wife/husband and so the angry lead detective framed him... they could have said a lot of things that would actually make me curious.

But they did not say any of that. They used EPDI - evil pagans did it. In a narrative storytelling mode. IMO, this is telling.

They clearly need to throw the search results out. I wonder if what they found with the search warrant could have been more of the rope that was claimed to be found on the crime scene? IMO, a lot of middle-aged men are a mess with their tools and similar, so even if he had the idea to throw out the leftover roll, bits of it could still be in random drawers or used in something and just forgotten about.
Maybe some domesticated animal hair DNA and a matched gun for the bullet found at the scene between the victims.
 
I do too. I think the whole angle is just ridiculous. I've noticed that there is a small group of people who have insisted since day 1 that he is guilty and continue to do so even after RA's arrest. I really don't get why. JMO
Reading RL's PCA for search warrant can bring up a few facts that were disturbing and remain so, AJMO
 
BBM I thought the same thing after reading the memo, I actually am still expecting a plea deal.

I think RA talked to DD prior to the girls being found and the photo of himself being released. If the video/photo hadn't been released I bet they could have asked again for people to come forward and he would have come forward since he knew he'd been seen and had already placed himself there. I wonder if that's what was meant by one of the PCs where they said this would have been solved if not for technology.

This is a reach, but I would be interested to know if RL had any connection to the Odinists or to RA. There is still something about RL asking for an alibi before the girls bodies were found that concerns me. It really could be as simple as he stumbled across the bodies and realized he would be blamed so he established an alibi and left his property right away. (Hoping I recall that timeline correctly). Or I've even considered the very unlikely event that RL came across the girls bodies and covered them with the branches to avoid detection, possibly to buy time to get an alibi and leave. But I really don't think it's likely or something I think happened, I just think it could be possible. The quote "they aren't the way you left them" makes me wonder if early on LE thought someone else covered the girls, which could explain why they didn't take all the branches as evidence.
the alibi was because he violated probation
 
To someone who is not in the US, it really pointed out the cultural differences. "Evil pagans did it" would so not fly in Europe.

But then there are also things like this:
Family arrested over woman's 'exorcism' death in hotel room 'part of a cult'

I don't think that it wouldn't work in Europe. I mean, Europe is where Nordic/pagan beliefs are coming from, plus we have enough Nazis/Neo-Nazis over here too and they usually, if they have a belief system, have a pagan one and sometimes do rituals as well. And yes, what it says about the Nazi beliefs in Nazi Germany is true as well, they had very deep rooted pagan beliefs, so of course to this day Nazis and Neo-Nazis do as well. Which doesn't mean at all that everyone with some kind of pagan belief is a Nazi.

So no, Europeans in general wouldn't see this as complete BS, some would, some wouldn't. We also over here have a different way than the US when is comes to cults like Scientology as an example, we know what they are capable of, and at least in my country (it's not the same in all countries) it's not recognized as a religion while it is in the US.

So with the things mentioned I think that's one reason why I don't shy away from the cult possibility, at the same time I think RA did it or was involved, the defense can make things look anyway they want, so I need to hear what the other side has to say. I'm just keeping an open mind and like I said, if others are involved, then they are all very dangerous and need to be locked up.

Also, at least in my country, no (upcoming) trial ever works like this, we don't have any theatrics like in the US. So a memo like this one would not happen over here and if it did, with the privacy laws we have here, I doubt it would ever end up in public.
 
I think what caused a high level of weird and unusual connections was a combination of SM interest, huge media attention (click bait), the substantial reward, and the 50,000 (or more) tips.

As time carried on with the case still unsolved, virtually any publicized crime that occurred elsewhere became a strong internet focus with people often trying to imagine a probable (or improbable) connection. JMO

I just know that there are a ton, and a lot more than average in the US, fires in the area like the Flora fire, with a lot more than average people dying, more than average women and children. And that's weird. And I'm hoping that gets solved soon as well.

And while it is true that almost every crime in that area made it into the news because of Abby and Libby, I am still shocked by the amount of (violent) crimes, I mean, the population is tiny. I guess rural US is very different from rural Europe (not that nothing ever happens, but not like this, like I said, my city in Europe seems to be safer than population 20,000 Carroll County).
 
Because it is the job of the Defense to provide a vigorous defense to their client, whether they believe him to be innocent or not.

MOO

Not THAT vigorous though that they end up being disbarred. Generally, most lawyers wouldn't go that far for a client.
 
mm 20:50

BMcD recently talked about what her sources said about the bullet. She has not heard any definitive theory from her sources that the bullet did come from the suspect, and one speculation was it even came from LE.

Delphi Murders: Illustrations Detail Defense Claims About Crime Scene
Thanks TL4S, I hadn't seen that reporting yet. I wondered just how reliably unique those ejection marks are? I would hope if RA's gun can be called a match, LE guns at the scene can be discounted as a match.
 
Although this snippet about attorneys is from way back in 2016, I doubt much if anything has changed since then.


“….This passage on the difference between truth and honesty made me think:

Lawyers must be honest, but they don’t have to be truthful. Honesty and truthfulness are not the same thing. Being honest means not telling lies. Being truthful means actively making known all the full truth of a matter. Lawyers must be honest, but they do not have to be truthful. A criminal defense lawyer, for example, in zealously defending a client, has no obligation to actively present the truth. Counsel may not deliberately mislead the court, but has no obligation to tell the defendant’s whole story.”

In the U.S. legal system, a witness has to tell “the whole truth and nothing but the truth” but apparently an attorney does not….”
 
As someone who studies religion and has taught a class on the anthropology of religion for 40 years, I have to say that Nazis/Neo-Nazis can be aligned with Christianity as well. I've watched the rise of Norse Paganism for 30 years, online and off (it used to be a playful, non-racist kind of thing, then forums like Skadi came online - and then it became something much more sinister, and in my view, corrupt). It was not associated with the more recent rise of white supremacism (sometimes called "nationalism" but I think that's just their propaganda wing that says that).

OTOH, Nordic mythology has a lot of violence in it. But then, so does the Bible. And that's because the world in which those ancient people lived had war and some violence (which appears at the same time that farming appears - because farmers have to stay in one place to protect their crops and are subject to raids from non-farmers - and to warfare over land resources). Most anthropologists say there's no evidence of war in the archaeological record (raiding - yes, war, no) until about 6000 years ago (and it's in Denmark). There are probably older pieces of evidence, but that's what's in the standard textbooks (like Brian Fagan's Peoples of the World and related prehistories) says 6000BP for sure. The "Norse paganism" practiced by some Americans today is derived mainly from Viking sources. But the Vikings did not represent all of Scandinavia and in fact, the word "Viking" is closer to the English word "private" than to "Scandinavian." For a run down of English piracy, one can read the excellent biography of Sir Francis Drake (who gave up being a slaver and a pirate to do something more honorable), by Laurence Bergreen (In Search of a Kingdom).

Yes, there are Neo-Nazi groups in the US (and most other Western nations). And some of them believe that they have adopted Nordic beliefs, although none of those groups has been studied well enough to know exactly what that means.

"Pagan" is a word used in English, mostly by Christians, to denote non-Christians whose beliefs date back to before 30 AD or thereabouts. The main criteria, besides that, seems to be that the "pagans" didn't have a book to go by (and still don't). Other rubrics for that word (when not used by pagans to denote themselves, which is different) is that the people aren't in touch with any "true" religion. IOW, it's meant to indicate that the pagans are "less than" the person who is calling them that.

Here's a short abstract of the relationship between punk music, Norse mythology and Neo-Nazi beliefs in European youth:


There are several other studies of actual Neo-Nazi Norse beliefs and their intersections and more are coming. It's an active area of study, almost always among youth, almost always related to music and sometimes to video games as well. I can find article after article about young people and their recruitment into Neo-Nazism, but none about adults in the Midwest.


However, there's plenty of research into these ideologies outside the Midwest. This is from an entire book:


Breivik is the example in that chapter. Here's a list of Neo-Nazi groups in Indiana:


There are similar data for most states And as you can see from the above list, there is at least one group in Indiana that's neo-Pagan.

I follow Willa Appel's excellent research on cults for my own definition of a cult. And one of the criteria is that cult beliefs are embraced by cultists who are NOT raised in the belief system (the newness of it and lack of elders and lack of traditions is one reason we all it a cult and not a religion. Nearly all religions start as cults - but very, very few survive the death of the original cult leader/founder/person of worship. Cults spring up all over the world, all the time and many of them are, from my POV, truly...crazy (sorry to drop my anthropological voice, just giving personal opinion there). They arise in both literate and non-literate populations. We know that previous membership in a strict organized religion makes a young person more vulnerable to joining a cult (see Willa Appel's Cults in America: Programmed for Paradise) for that data. Many of you would find it interesting reading.

I don't have any data or evidence of any contemporary American cult performing human sacrifice, though I'll keep looking. To find out more about Christian Neo-Nazis in America (there's a lot of research and journalism - and autobiography), just google that term. Here's an excellent full article on the role of Christianity in the rise of the actual Nazi movement:


Official endorsement of Christianity by the Nazi Party came in around 1920:

The Nazi Party Programme of 1920 guaranteed freedom for all religious denominations which were not hostile to the State and it also endorsed Positive Christianity in order to combat "the Jewish-materialist spirit"
^

So, for someone to become a White Supremacist Nationalist Norse Believer, I am assuming that Indiana members were raised in and around Christianity and (if such a movement exists), they are rejecting Christianity in favor of an ancient Nordic belief system (or an attempt at it, anyway - very hard for people without the tradition to successfully reinvent it, I know of no cases of that).

They are therefore rejecting the participation of non-White people in the State and embracing the religion they believe is most associated with the blond-haired and blue-eyed.

Oddly, some of the Neo-Nazis I've interviewed do not have blond hair or blue eyes, but claim that at least one parent did. Further, almost none of them can show that they descended from any Nordic culture (so it's cultural appropriation). However, in the Midwest, there are way more Nordic-descended people (as a percentage) than here in the West, which is where I do my research. OTOH, I have interviewed several incarcerated neo-Nazis who are plainly not considered "white" by other members of the same viewpoint (although at least one had gained a certain amount of acceptance by them - these beliefs are neither consistent nor rational, obviously).

I think the Norse pagan beliefs used in the U.S. are coming from musical trends, podcasts (by Americans), podcasts on Norse myth, popular books/novels (in English, mostly published in the U.S. but some from U.K.) I personally have never met a Norse Neo-Pagan who could read any Scandinavian language or who had read the sources for the mythology (which include archaeological finds) personally. I've also never met one who has studied the archaeological evidence of Norse religion.

So it's only "coming from Europe" in the sense that many Americans "came from Europe." I can't see a lot of differences between the Scandinavian ritual/religious system and that of many other cultures (many of which are non-European). The best-studied religions of human sacrifice are, IMO, the Aztecs and the Greeks (yes, the Greeks used human sacrifice to placate the gods - and so did the people of Crete; it's a fascinating topic and these practices do not involve random selection of victims, at all). As with certain funerary customs of India (still in practice, but rare) the victims were sometimes self-chosen. This post is long enough already, too much to go into.

OTOH, Neo-Nazism exists in comtemporary Nordic nations (but even after a brief research stint in Norway, I could find no one in Norway who was "pagan" nor of the Norse religion. I met people who loved their own mythology and detested the burning of churches (which they viewed as punk/metal and not Nazi or Norse), but I never met anyone who practice Ancient Norse religion (some people of course were syncretic - they had borrowed elements of the Old Religion and incorporated it into either their own religion or philosophy - they were not out practicing made up Norse rituals).

At any rate, nearly all of us have ancestors whose cultures/members "practiced human sacrifice" of some kind - but Nordic human sacrifice was a feature of funeral rituals for important people. It did not involve outsiders and anyone who thinks they are practicing ancient Nordic religion by using or thinking about human sacrifice outside that specific ritual context is terribly misled (and grandiose/out of touch with reality enough that they need to be incarcerated/receiving heavy duty psychiatric care).

White nationalist Breivik was not religious at all, as far as I can tell. If it is true that RA is a practicing Odinist, then if I were advising his defense, and if Indiana law allows, he should be evaluated for schizophrenia and plead not guilty by reason of insanity. Problem with that is, of course, is that he's been functioning normally as a non-schizophrenic (so far as we know) all his adult life.

Opinion:

If RA was part of a cult movement, I suppose he could attempt a plea bargain by turning in all his cronies (but surely, he'd fear death inside prison if he did so - his defense is actually poising him in a manner that could turn out very badly when it 1) doesn't convince a jury and 2) makes the white supremacists in prison hate him for blabbing.
 
Although this snippet about attorneys is from way back in 2016, I doubt much if anything has changed since then.


“….This passage on the difference between truth and honesty made me think:

Lawyers must be honest, but they don’t have to be truthful. Honesty and truthfulness are not the same thing. Being honest means not telling lies. Being truthful means actively making known all the full truth of a matter. Lawyers must be honest, but they do not have to be truthful. A criminal defense lawyer, for example, in zealously defending a client, has no obligation to actively present the truth. Counsel may not deliberately mislead the court, but has no obligation to tell the defendant’s whole story.”

In the U.S. legal system, a witness has to tell “the whole truth and nothing but the truth” but apparently an attorney does not….”

How many times has this been posted now? I can read and understood it the first time. Of course they can mislead, leave things out, etc., I said this from the beginning, but they can't lie. Or they will be disbarred. They can't say "we have this letter and this letter says the sky is blue" when the letter actually says "gras is green".
 
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One of the patches shown in the document literally says something like “Praise to Odin”….it isn’t subtle.
Even if it isn’t subtle, why did he perceive it as a threat? If I saw that prior to having read the doc by the defence last week, it would have held no significance to me. None. RA alleges they’re threatening him and his family — I’m not sure I buy this as having happened (him alleging it or it happening at all). If he was really afraid of the Odins, he wouldn’t tell lawyers knowing that he has to literally be stuck with them as guards. Telling the lawyers would not have made him any safer and now their statements have possibly placed RA at greater risk.

If the Odin guards threatened him, he prob would have kept his mouth shut, no? So why didn’t he keep his mouth shut?

I suspect he had to cough up a reason as to why he confessed to his lawyers, OR his lawyers had to explain that somehow and this is the route they chose.
 
Considering all, seems the gag order has become advantageous to the defence as they shovel paper through the court system, the gag order preventing knowledgeable comments or clarifications from key people in the know.

“Defense attorneys Bradley Rozzi and Andrew Baldwin accused investigators of ignoring damning evidence pointing to the Odinists, a Norse religion “hijacked by white nationalists” in a 136-page memorandum filed last week with the Carroll County Circuit Court. The memo cites the work of three Indiana law enforcement officers, Kevin Murphy, Greg Ferency, and Todd Click.

According to the defense memo, “Click was concerned that for some reason the leadership of the investigative team had failed to share with (Carroll County) Prosecutor McLeland the evidence gathered by Click, Ferency, and Murphy. Click’s concerns led him to seek out a lawyer to assist him in the drafting of a letter. This letter was then sent to McLeland.” In a footnote to the document, it states the certified letter was received on May 1, 2023, and refers to a copy attached to the official filing, marked as Exhibit 3.

Rozzi and Baldwin’s memo further states that the defense was not made aware of this letter “until after it was obvious from the last round of depositions that the defense would certainly be talking to Todd Click.” The memo calls the letter “exculpatory in nature.”

In a statement released to Court TV, retired Rushville, Indiana officer Todd Click writes: “No one in law enforcement believes Abby and Libby were killed in a ritual sacrifice. That is the defense twisting facts for sensationalism.” Click did not agree to an interview, citing the gag-order in effect on witnesses and investigators in the case.….”
 
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I’d be interested in knowing if the footage shows a 65 Comet.

BBM why doesn’t that say “murders”? Every other instance says murders but that first one says no DNA linking RA to the crime scene. So I’ll assume there is dna linking him to the murders, just not to the crime scene.
That would make sense given the charge is a murder that happened during the commission of another crime (kidnapping).
 
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