IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #166

[mrjitty]

Also, I agree with @mrjitty that if RA were INNOCENTLY on the bridge at the same time as the murders, he wouldn’t have ever stopped talking about it. As in “I was right there! I could have been killed! I cant believe I was there when it happened!”

He possibly would have spent these years exclaiming this to everybody he knew.

JMO and speculation.

RSBM

Right?! Even if he didn't publicise it widely sure he would have at least told someone - especially if you were innocent you wouldn't want to try and cover it up - especially seeing he told law enforcement???

This is one of the parts I most want to know about

 

[justtrish]

Does anyone know when RA came forward to give a statement? Was it before the girls were found? Was it after they were found, but before a photo/video was released? Was it before they mentioned a car parked at the side of the building they were looking for info about? Did he willingly give the info about time and his clothing because he didn't know yet that the girls had recorded him.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Yes, they found other phones during the SW in October.

If RA did have a phone that day at the trails it would have important information no doubt.
My concern with cell phone data has always been, because there was almost six years before an arrest was made, that either RA got rid of the phone and/or that the phone companies didn’t have the information anymore.
But, as you point out, they seized numerous cell phones with the search warrant.
Maybe that’s a big reason the defense wants to kill the search warrant.

 

[MistyWaters]

Whohoo, forget the courts, let’s go for trial by media! <intended shark>

BBM

Delphi double homicide: Evidence against suspects named in 'Odin Report'

News 18 is still breaking down new revelations about the Dephi double homicide, including suspects named in a police report.

www.wevv.com

“……The defense says investigators ignored the 12-page Odin Report, which details four possible suspects and their role in a pagan religion called Odinism.

As News 18 reported, Allen's attorneys say the crime scene resembled the "ghoulish" aftermath of a ritual "chalked full of cult involvement," including so-called runes in the form of sticks and branches deliberately arranged on the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German and the letter "F" painted on a tree with German's blood……”

……Next week, News 18 will tell you about each of their alibis, when they talked to police and how detectives reportedly ruled them out….”

 

[scapa]

Of course "for safety purposes." I wouldn't expect them to tell the judge anything else.

What if they made him face the camera, would you think differently?

My (non-professional) take on this is that filming of attorney - client meetings was seen as a breach partly because of how such filming might affect free discourse within a privileged communication, whether or not audio was recorded or the camera pointed at anyone's mouth for purposes of lip-reading.

I can't imagine having cameras in examination rooms to "ensure the safety" of patients, regardless of what is being recorded or if the camera is pointed modestly at the ceiling -- such surveillance would absolutely infringe upon the privacy of patients and what they might or might not be prepared to say or not say.

The practice in a jail where there is known or suspected tensions and where guards may be affiliated to a hostile group might and should in many cases be viewed as intimidation, IMO. I happen to believe that RA committed these crimes, and am frankly sceptical of "Odinite" involvement in the murders themselves, but I still am flummoxed that these meetings were recorded in any way, shape or form, unconvinced of the jail's reasons / excuses for so recording and unsurprised that the judge ordered the practice stopped.

 

[MistyWaters]

<snip for reply>
Maybe that’s a big reason the defense wants to kill the search warrant.

That’s right, we know little or nothing of the results of analysis of the evidence that was gathered but the defence seems quite desperate to have it stricken. For example if there was DNA linking RA to the murders it would’ve been found from items taken during the SW as well.

If the defence had a valid reason to attempt to invalidate the SW surely they’d have expanded on it, referring to prior judicial rulings as is typical of the legal profession instead of submitting 136 pages of juvenile huff and fluff? That’s also why I think RA confirmed the 1:30 arrival time in later recorded interviews. The defence only mentioned the CO got it wrong in initial one.

 

[Charlot123]

.

No. He wasn't just playing pool.
He was literally jumping up and down.
Bouncing.

not sure. The question was about almost military-like organization. Abduct-incapacitate-kill-dress-redress-pose-crime scene, while leaving no DNA (and ostensibly, no footprints, otherwise we’d have some information about the size of the shoe in PCA. That doesn’t bode with the photos of a man I saw taken in jail. The way his hand looked like it was almost tetany (low calcium) or maybe simply too tight handcuffs or something equally unpleasant.

Either he was part of the group - but then, where are the rest?

Or, there is some sense in what the defense says.

 

[sandy_80]

Does anyone know when RA came forward to give a statement? Was it before the girls were found? Was it after they were found, but before a photo/video was released? Was it before they mentioned a car parked at the side of the building they were looking for info about? Did he willingly give the info about time and his clothing because he didn't know yet that the girls had recorded him.

not disclosed till now..but logic says before the bg video was released..and after thr girls were found or else he didnt need to talk about being there

 

[MistyWaters]

My (non-professional) take on this is that filming of attorney - client meetings was seen as a breach partly because of how such filming might affect free discourse within a privileged communication, whether or not audio was recorded or the camera pointed at anyone's mouth for purposes of lip-reading.

I can't imagine having cameras in examination rooms to "ensure the safety" of patients, regardless of what is being recorded or if the camera is pointed modestly at the ceiling -- such surveillance would absolutely infringe upon the privacy of patients and what they might or might not be prepared to say or not say.

The practice in a jail where there is known or suspected tensions and where guards may be affiliated to a hostile group might and should in many cases be viewed as intimidation, IMO. I happen to believe that RA committed these crimes, and am frankly sceptical of "Odinite" involvement in the murders themselves, but I still am flummoxed that these meetings were recorded in any way, shape or form, unconvinced of the jail's reasons / excuses for so recording and unsurprised that the judge ordered the practice stopped.

I have no idea about prison policy or why RA‘s activities were recorded 24/7 via video surveillance, so assuming it’s something to do with protecting himself from himself and protecting others who are with him? But it hasn’t been a secret, it was disclosed to the court, and no prisoner rights groups have spoken to his defence. It seems it’s only a concern being expressed here.

Delphi murders defendant Richard Allen living in 8x12 prison cell under suicide watch and 24-hour video surveillance

The Westville prison warden provided very specific details about the cell where Allen is living and the accommodations he is offered.

www.wthr.com

Delphi murders defendant Richard Allen living in 8x12 prison cell under suicide watch and 24-hour video surveillance​

• Allen’s cell is equipped with a surveillance camera that records his activities 24 hours a day.

 

[FrostedGlass]

My (non-professional) take on this is that filming of attorney - client meetings was seen as a breach partly because of how such filming might affect free discourse within a privileged communication, whether or not audio was recorded or the camera pointed at anyone's mouth for purposes of lip-reading.

I can't imagine having cameras in examination rooms to "ensure the safety" of patients, regardless of what is being recorded or if the camera is pointed modestly at the ceiling -- such surveillance would absolutely infringe upon the privacy of patients and what they might or might not be prepared to say or not say.

The practice in a jail where there is known or suspected tensions and where guards may be affiliated to a hostile group might and should in many cases be viewed as intimidation, IMO. I happen to believe that RA committed these crimes, and am frankly sceptical of "Odinite" involvement in the murders themselves, but I still am flummoxed that these meetings were recorded in any way, shape or form, unconvinced of the jail's reasons / excuses for so recording and unsurprised that the judge ordered the practice stopped.

Actually, they stopped recording before the judge had a chance to rule on the motion. It was to "pend" because they stopped on their own. That leads me to wonder why, if it was truly for safety purposes. Of course, the last thing they would want was a public hearing on that tricky issue. MOO

 

[Arkay]

while leaving no DNA (and ostensibly, no footprints, otherwise we’d have some information about the size of the shoe in POA

IMO the lack of footprints has always been problematic in that it removes an important source of evidence.

HOWEVER, it does not exonerate RA, IMO, because I presume he has feet. I presume those Odinites have feet, I presume KAK, RL and all the other previous suspects had feet.

I believe RA is the murderer, but no matter if one man or an army killed these girls, the fact that RA’s footprints are missing is not exculpatory.

Someone with feet did not leave footprints. I believe that was intentional, however it was done or obscured.

JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

Actually, they stopped recording before the judge had a chance to rule on the motion. It was to "pend" because they stopped on their own. That leads me to wonder why, if it was truly for safety purposes. Of course, the last thing they would want was a public hearing on that tricky issue. MOO

A public hearing is the last thing who would want?

If I was an attorney who truly believed my clients life was at risk, you bet I’d want a camera without audio on the room that I was meeting him in. What if a prison guard stormed in and murdered him?

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Actually, they stopped recording before the judge had a chance to rule on the motion. It was to "pend" because they stopped on their own. That leads me to wonder why, if it was truly for safety purposes. Of course, the last thing they would want was a public hearing on that tricky issue. MOO

My view of their thinking is, this a benefit we supply to people like attorneys who are in close quarter with at best unpredictable and sometimes violent people in an effort to keep them safe if something goes awry. It supplies a video of what went down.
But if we’re going to be falsely accused about the intent by these people, we will just stop doing it.

 

[Ravenmoon]

.

not sure. The question was about almost military-like organization. Abduct-incapacitate-kill-dress-redress-pose-crime scene, while leaving no DNA (and ostensibly, no footprints, otherwise we’d have some information about the size of the shoe in POA. That doesn’t bode with the photos of a man I saw taken in jail. The way his hand looked like it was almost tetany (low calcium) or maybe simply too tight handcuffs or something equally unpleasant.

Either he was part of the group - but then, where are the rest?

Or, there is some sense in what the defense says.

Are we 100 percent certain that there were no footprints? I have not heard that there were none.

Reasonable to me:

Abducting 2 girls at gunpoint could be done by anyone.

Yellow rope left at the scene at least implies how one girl was incapacitated.

2 Nude girls, one tied up while witnessing what happens to her friend would be petrified and still, bound.

The murders could easily be carried out with one adult male.

Please remember, the Richard Allen that the defense portrays no longer has access to alcohol, good meals or satisfying sleep. He looks like someone who is paying the price for what he has done after getting away with it for almost,6 years.

His wife had videos of a very physically healthy Richard Allen. He was more than capable of the murders IMO.

This defense team has a repeating pattern of villainizing the system and the people that run it. The claims they made about RA are very similar to ones made about Ron Logan.

They are doing what they do best and what they are hired to do.

AJMO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Actually, they stopped recording before the judge had a chance to rule on the motion. It was to "pend" because they stopped on their own. That leads me to wonder why, if it was truly for safety purposes. Of course, the last thing they would want was a public hearing on that tricky issue. MOO

My view of their thinking is, this a benefit we supply to people like attorneys who are in close quarter with at best unpredictable and sometimes violent people in an effort to keep them safe if something goes awry. It supplies a video of what went down.
But if we’re going to be falsely accused about the intent by these people, we will just stop doing it.

 

[FrostedGlass]

My view of their thinking is, this a benefit we supply to people like attorneys who are in close quarter with at best unpredictable and sometimes violent people in an effort to keep them safe if something goes awry. It supplies a video of what went down.
But if we’re going to be falsely accused about the intent by these people, we will just stop doing it.

Of course.

I think I read his atty said he was handcuffed and chained to his waist. And facing the window. No Houdini acts from him.

 

[Miya]

Does it? The copy I read says one of the parents was dating outside their own race. I didn’t think it said which parent. To me, this could have been LG’s mum or sad, or AW’s mum. I didn’t think it specified which parent. I’ll have to wait to check til I can redownload the doc but maybe someone else can verify in the meantime what it actually says?

I'm a couple of pages behind, don't know if somebody already replied.

I checked again and you are right, it says "one of the mothers". I think I just heard a lot of people say that it must have been Abby's mother because we know about Libby's mother, but I think I mixed things up in my head, because everybody sees Libby's grandmother as her mother, I don't think we know much about Libby's mother. Or Abby's, and we also shouldn't.

Makes me wonder though why it doesn't say which mother in the memo. Maybe they wanted to be vague with this personal information but at the same time had no problem with naming names, including the guy's name that reached out to LE several times about BH ...

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Are we 100 percent certain that there were no footprints? I have not heard that there were none.

Reasonable to me:

Abducting 2 girls at gunpoint could be done by anyone.

Yellow rope left at the scene at least implies how one girl was incapacitated.

2 Nude girls, one tied up while witnessing what happens to her friend would be petrified and still, bound.

The murders could easily be carried out with one adult male.

Please remember, the Richard Allen that the defense portrays no longer has access to alcohol, good meals or satisfying sleep. He looks like someone who is paying the price for what he has done after getting away with it for almost,6 years.

His wife had videos of a very physically healthy Richard Allen. He was more than capable of the murders IMO.

This defense team has a repeating pattern of villainizing the system and the people that run it. The claims they made about RA are very similar to ones made about Ron Logan.

They are doing what they do best and what they are hired to do.

AJMO

I completely agree.
I will add we don’t know much about the crime scene from this motion. We only know what the defense wants us to know or what they have spun and manipulated.
The inference by the defense that there weirdly is no blood at the scene is what they want us to think to bolster their pagan theory.
No one should read this motion as a presentation of fact. It should be read like their last big motion accusing the prison of treating RA like a POW.
Everybody makes a big deal about police interviews in that the police are allowed to lie. Well, guess what, defense attorneys lie and inflate and misrepresent all the time. At least some do, like RA’s.
And don’t justify it by saying “it’s their job” because there are plenty of defense attorneys that don’t play this game. It is dishonest and it is insulting to the victims and frankly to the public too. But they made this choice…to be dishonest. Even if you know your client is guilty, you can still defend him without stooping this low.


edit: goofed something, forgot something

 

[Charlot123]

True. There is still a lot of info we don’t know.

I also try to keep in mind that in Libby’s video, we have always only seen the DTH portion, but LE has the entire 43 seconds. The part that LE long ago said was the stuff of nightmares.

Who but LE knows what is depicted there and what additional information they’ve garnered from that?

Personally I hope to never see it released, just as I wish I didn’t now know the crime scene details we’ve learned from the Defense memorandum.

Also, I agree with @mrjitty that if RA were INNOCENTLY on the bridge at the same time as the murders, he wouldn’t have ever stopped talking about it. As in “I was right there! I could have been killed! I cant believe I was there when it happened!”

He possibly would have spent these years exclaiming this to everybody he knew.

JMO and speculation.

You know, there was such exalted response to the case in public, so many discussions, dissecting the lives of everyone that had the poor luck of being the “poi of the day”, that I understand why people didn’t want to say, “I was there”. Look what happened to “the couple quarreling under the bridge”. Look at people painting the benches, it is horrible, or the “flannel shirt guy” from Landmarks. There was one couple dropped too rapidly from the discussion, IMHO, but maybe their alibi was solid and it is yet another example of how people’s lives can never be the same, because now we know extra information about random people that we, essentially, shouldn’t be privy too. I totally understand why RA didn’t want to talk. He might be mad now, but he wasn’t then, just a functional alcoholic, it seems. (Although ironically, if he did talk, he’d probably be dragged through the court of public opinion earlier, checked, and have a “public” alibi by now.)

About BH - I remember the first version was, LH was not at the bridge because he and his dad were at either cattle auction or farmers auction ( I heard the phrase for the first time, and the it seemed funny to me, a city-dweller, with different reality). Now the wdwayrtayqalibi changed, but again, it doesn’t mean anything except for maybe the initial information was “rumors”.

However, given what we knew about the previous pois, it is interesting that everyone is disinclined to look into the odinite group. I don’t know if it is fear, or the public got tired of the case.

 

[Charlot123]

My view of their thinking is, this a benefit we supply to people like attorneys who are in close quarter with at best unpredictable and sometimes violent people in an effort to keep them safe if something goes awry. It supplies a video of what went down.
But if we’re going to be falsely accused about the intent by these people, we will just stop doing it.

If I am called by any company, they warn “the case may be recorded for safety purposes”.

If someone records or tapes the conversation of an attorney with the clients, there should be a special form signed by the parties before. Pretty extensive. IMO.