IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #168

[Bergmann]

I’m totally skeptical of defence tactics because frankly I see a lot of deception between what they say and do. Why bother with complaining they’re still waiting on discovery? Just get on with the trial, get LE on the stand who will testify there’s nothing to link RA to the crime he’s been charged with. Not guilty, Who needs to waste time pouring through 6 years of discovery material? Or better yet, file a Motion to Dismiss and just show the deposition to the judge, LE said there’s no evidence. Charges dropped!

No, better yet invent an Odinist theory instead and get stuff leaked…….that’s the truth by this defence that you hopefully expect? No their only truth is they probably refer to RA behind his back as PR. JMO

Agree, like I said if I were D I’d just prep for trial professionally.

I posted in response to your feeling that RA could/ should plead guilty before we even get to trial, but I was sceptical whether the current case as we know it is strong enough to force that.

Did you have a view on what type of possible as yet unseen evidence could force a change in tactics so dramatic?

 

[MistyWaters]

"MS - you could have just handed the photos onto the authorities. You need to answer why chose to do much more than that."

IMO they handled it very well. They contacted police with all the info given to them. Then deleted the photos they recieved. What more exactly did they do that you feel was so egregious, I'm not seeing it?

I totally agree. I doubt it was not expected that anyone directly involved would take the high road and be offended by this leak of crime scene photos causing it get turned over to police. It difficult to understand why anyone would be critical of MS for assisting “Mark” in doing the right thing. I thought they explained themselves in order to protect their involvement - involvement in this case has become a watch your back affair! There’s sharks out trolling the waters everywhere. Imagine the SM howlers if their names were implicated in involvement while they stayed silent. JMO

 

[Emma Peel]

https://x.com/angelaganote/status/1714680502110564654?s=46&t=CebEjvidhDaYxPmQntcKRQ

We are getting so many questions about how to watch tomorrow's Richard Allen court hearing. It is scheduled to start at 2pm. We can air the hearing with a 30-minute delay. You can watch it on Fox59 or online @fox59. Look for us starting at 2:30 Thursday.

Thank u very much.

 

[MistyWaters]

bbm. This is the opposite of what the defense is claiming in their memo. The defense is claiming they received discovery that the investigation on the rune angle was closed because some unnamed Purdue professor of Norse history or something didn't think they were runes. The defense is asking for more discovery on this person.

The defence already has it.

Richard Allen's attorneys name Purdue professor and say police hid statement on Odinist connection to Delphi killings

The court documents claim the crime scene had pagan symbols formed with sticks, with tree branches and on a tree.

www.wthr.com

 

[TL4S]

I wonder how different this case would have been if Robert Ives had stayed on as prosecutor.

The quote below is from Aug of 2020. I suspect the three signatures he saw were the runes on Libby, Abby and the tree. That he recognized them as such but was not solidly convinced that they were authentic. MOO

"'There was a lot more physical evidence than that at the crime scene,' Ives said. 'And it's probably not what you would imagine, or what people would think I'm talking about.'

'It was just not your normal "a person was killed here" crime scene, that's probably all I can say about it,' Ives said.

Ives said that the scene was 'odd' and displayed at least three 'signatures', which are unique behaviors by the killer.

However, Ives raised the possibility that elements of the scene had been staged in an attempt to trick investigators by sending them down a false path."

Former prosecutor in unsolved Delphi murders of two teens speaks out

Liberty German, 14, and Abigail Williams, 13, vanished on February 13, 2017 while hiking the Monon High Bridge Trail in Delphi, Indiana. Their bodies were discovered the following day.

www.dailymail.co.uk

That RI interview is ALWAYS in the back of my mind. He uses rather strong language to describe the crime scene...especially when you hear his voice actually describing it rather than reading his words in print. He gives a really good sense of his personal impression of the CS. IMO.

One of the signatures could very well be the placement of the sticks. If the blood on the tree is a signature, I would think that would suggest that at least RI thought the killer marked it intentionally. A wearing L's clothing would perhaps be a signature, as well. I also highly suspect there were more injuries than what we are aware of, and maybe also more physical elements to the CS that we haven't heard about. I think what we read in the D's memo would likely NOT include anything that might be construed as sexual in nature (other then the lack of clothing on one victim), because that is the very motive they want to stray away from (I'm only saying this because I happen to believe it was sexually motivated). JMO.

 

[tlcya]

That the professor stated after seeing the pattern of the sticks that "it was given" someone was trying to replicate a Germanic runic script.
That the professor consulted with a colleague from Harvard who agreed with the Purdue professor.
That he "could certainly imagine that this was somebody's idea that when you do human sacrifice you carve runes ... there are some poetic sources that would sort of support that idea that somebody might have come across ... that scenario seems entirely plausible to me."


From @MistyWaters link just above

to me it sounds as if both professors aren't necessarily saying Odinists are responsible but rather that someone may have staged the scene to replicate or resemble a Germanic runic script. That publicly available poetic sources may have been used by the killer to stage the scene in this manner to suggest human sacrifice.

None of those findings supports that it WAS ritual human sacrifice performed by roving Odinists, just that it is plausible that someone may have wanted to make it appear ritualistic. JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

Agree, like I said if I were D I’d just prep for trial professionally.

I posted in response to your feeling that RA could/ should plead guilty before we even get to trial, but I was sceptical whether the current case as we know it is strong enough to force that.

Did you have a view on what type of possible as yet unseen evidence could force a change in tactics so dramatic?

On following this case it seems to me that a not so subtle change in defence tactics was motivated upon the mutual disclosure of RA’s confessions during the June 28, 2023 hearing.

That appeared to cause the defence to panic, desperately reaching for anything to excuse it. Initially his mental health caused by poor prison conditions was blamed and when that wasn’t successful it became Odinist prison guards who were threatening him. Anything but what he said was truthful. IMO I think that was the turning point.

 

[sunshineray]

Maybe not monetize it by proceeding to make a podcast about it

They could have done exactly what they did minus broadcasting to the world what they did. IMO

I agree w @Bergmann on this. Their reporting it to authorities and then allegedly deleting the materials but going on to create a public hubbub about it to their own benefit while simultaneously purporting to be concerned about the public furor is disingenuous at best and a bit slimy at worst. MOO

Agree to disagree respectfully with that as I think they would have very likely been demonized if they hadn't explained the bare minimum and it got out they were part of the chain of events. AJMO

 

[tlcya]

Agree to disagree respectfully with that as I think they would have very likely been demonized if they hadn't explained the bare minimum and it got out they were part of the chain of events. AJMO

Agree to disagree Appreciate your thoughtful posts.

 

[sunshineray]

Agree to disagree Appreciate your thoughtful posts.

As I do with yours

 

[Bergmann]

On following this case it seems to me that a not so subtle change in defence tactics was motivated upon the mutual disclosure of RA’s confessions during the June 28, 2023 hearing.

That appeared to cause the defence to panic, desperately reaching for anything to excuse it. Initially his mental health caused by poor prison conditions was blamed and when that wasn’t successful it became Odinist prison guards who were threatening him. Anything but what he said was truthful. IMO I think that was the turning point.

Sorry I meant a dramatic change as in the hypothetical plea change to guilty - what kind of hypothetical evidence might be enough to force D and RA towards that do you think?

 

[TL4S]

That the professor stated after seeing the pattern of the sticks that "it was given" someone was trying to replicate a Germanic runic script.
That the professor consulted with a colleague from Harvard who agreed with the Purdue professor.
That he "could certainly imagine that this was somebody's idea that when you do human sacrifice you carve runes ... there are some poetic sources that would sort of support that idea that somebody might have come across ... that scenario seems entirely plausible to me."


From @MistyWaters link just above

to me it sounds as if both professors aren't necessarily saying Odinists are responsible but rather that someone may have staged the scene to replicate or resemble a Germanic runic script. That publicly available poetic sources may have been used by the killer to stage the scene in this manner to suggest human sacrifice.

None of those findings supports that it WAS ritual human sacrifice performed by roving Odinists, just that it is plausible that someone may have wanted to make it appear ritualistic. JMO

That's the way I interpret it, as well. And I think TC kind of confirmed that when he told MS and BMcD that nobody in LE believes it was a ritualistic killing (but sort of suggests he still believes certain people might be involved in the murders).

My question is WHY would anyone try to make it look like some sort of rune? Because they held those beliefs and were trying to make a symbol for their own private reason? Because they knew there were Odinists around the area and figured that would be a good red herring? It doesn't make sense to me. JMO.

 

[FrostedGlass]

That RI interview is ALWAYS in the back of my mind. He uses rather strong language to describe the crime scene...especially when you hear his voice actually describing it rather than reading his words in print. He gives a really good sense of his personal impression of the CS. IMO.

One of the signatures could very well be the placement of the sticks. If the blood on the tree is a signature, I would think that would suggest that at least RI thought the killer marked it intentionally. A wearing L's clothing would perhaps be a signature, as well. I also highly suspect there were more injuries than what we are aware of, and maybe also more physical elements to the CS that we haven't heard about. I think what we read in the D's memo would likely NOT include anything that might be construed as sexual in nature (other then the lack of clothing on one victim), because that is the very motive they want to stray away from (I'm only saying this because I happen to believe it was sexually motivated). JMO.

I tried to find that interview but I ended up with the article instead.

The descriptions we've heard over the years don't quite match with what we've heard recently. I agree that there's likely more injuries and crime scene evidence. Sexual motivation takes my mind to really dark places so I don't go there. However, it's a strong possibility. Since we've only heard what nice girls Libby and Abby were, I've never thought they said something to him that would have set him off.

 

[sunshineray]

Time might prove me wrong but I really do think RA will change his plea before his trial ever occurs, maybe on a deal removing the death penalty or the offer of a reduced sentence.

The defence has known this will occur for quite some time and RA’s confessions reaffirmed it.

But as any good legal team would advise, he must wait until the full discovery file is received and reviewed before that can happen. No sense in pleading guilty if a serious flaw would have got the charges tossed instead.

That’s left the attorneys with only a narrow window to get their names out in the public, to capitalize on their association with a high profile case in order to gain future business. Many criminals expect their chosen attorneys to be aggressive in flouting the rules so gaining that sort of reputation can prove very lucrative. It’s not really about RA‘s guilt or innocence at the expense of an Odinist theory at all...he’s their PR. JMO

The prosecution reported confessions are absolutely what triggered the panic and IMO this whole mess going to be discussed in court tomorrow. AJMO

 

[steeltowngirl]

bbm. This is the opposite of what the defense is claiming in their memo. The defense is claiming they received discovery that the investigation on the rune angle was closed because some unnamed Purdue professor of Norse history or something didn't think they were runes. The defense is asking for more discovery on this person.

The professor said someone was making it look like runes. My take is that defense is claiming LE didn’t fully investigate the Odin theory.

The defense writes that in the most recent interview, Turco says, “’It was a given’ that someone was trying to replicate a Germanic runic script,” (with the placing of the sticks), that a Harvard University colleague of Turco’s agreed with his assessment, that Turco confirmed, “Odinism is an extreme neo-Pagan/neo-Heathenism ideology that has right wing racist connotations,” “Vikings practiced ritual killings and sacrifices,” “He ‘could certainly imagine that this was somebody’s idea that when you do human sacrifice you carve runes…that scenario seems entirely plausible to me,” and, “Dr. Turco discussed how runes were thought to have ‘magical significance and would be used in incantations, in rituals and that there is a sacrificial connection in mythological poetry…these were things again where somebody who was sort of an Odin ‘fanboy’ would likely come across.”

Defense motion alleges Delphi investigator misconduct

DELPHI, Ind. — A motion filed by attorneys representing accused Delphi killer Richard Allen claims investigators misled the court about the interpretation of its interview with an expert from…

fox59.com

 

[MistyWaters]

There’s been a real noticeable problem since the beginning of this case and that’s a tendency for someone with some sort of involvement to say something/anything but soon thereafter what they said will sprout enormous legs and take on a whole new life of its own.

During the first MS podcast they released basic information about the leak, including hoping to stop it but by the 3rd podcast it was evident their goal was mainly to clarify details and squash harmful rumours they had not intended to create. That’s understandable, who better to do so considering LE, the prosecution and defence could not comment due to the prevailing gag order and there were people involved, including one who had already taken his own life.

This entire case has been influenced by the opportunity to make money beginning with the reward for tips. I don’t consider the MS podcasts including commercials to be offensive, their time to inform us about up to date happenings which they’re aware of ought to be worth something JMO

 

[TL4S]

I tried to find that interview but I ended up with the article instead.

The descriptions we've heard over the years don't quite match with what we've heard recently. I agree that there's likely more injuries and crime scene evidence. Sexual motivation takes my mind to really dark places so I don't go there. However, it's a strong possibility. Since we've only heard what nice girls Libby and Abby were, I've never thought they said something to him that would have set him off.

Yes, I have a lot of trouble picturing him just out for a walk with his gun and knife, then getting triggered by two girls laughing at him, angering him to the point of leading them across a creek, unclothing them, killing them, leaving signatures, etc. And I agree, the sexual motivation is really dark, and I don't like going there, either, but I just can't buy anything less with two undressed teen girls.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Yes, I have a lot of trouble picturing him just out for a walk with his gun and knife, then getting triggered by two girls laughing at him, angering him to the point of leading them across a creek, unclothing them, killing them, leaving signatures, etc. And I agree, the sexual motivation is really dark, and I don't like going there, either, but I just can't buy anything less with two undressed teen girls.

Thanks for the link.

In court, P doesn't have to prove motivation but it's really important to me. Even if it's just: "I was so mad that I wanted to kill someone so I got that little old lady across the street."

Cases like this one, where there seems to be no motivation, don't leave many choices other than SA. MOO

 

[TL4S]

Thanks for the link.

In court, P doesn't have to prove motivation but it's really important to me. Even if it's just: "I was so mad that I wanted to kill someone so I got that little old lady across the street."

Cases like this one, where there seems to be no motivation, don't leave many choices other than SA. MOO

I'm relistening to that DTH episode right now. They speak with Mary Ellen O'Toole and it's interesting because in her discussion about signatures, she even mentions redressing the bodies, moving them, etc.

 

[sunshineray]

Thanks for the link.

In court, P doesn't have to prove motivation but it's really important to me. Even if it's just: "I was so mad that I wanted to kill someone so I got that little old lady across the street."

Cases like this one, where there seems to be no motivation, don't leave many choices other than SA. MOO

I think he went hunting, that was the motivation. I also think it's highly possible he documented what he did. Makes me ill just thinking about it, but another possible motivation.

I just wish the prosecution would clarify the statements made about others maybe being involved. I still think Libby being catfished could possibly have a hand in the girls going to the trails that day. KAK's phoney account and dropbox loom in my mind. AJMO