IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #168

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Bergmann said:
In the interests of lasting justice (one that avoids and withstands lengthy appellate processes), I would prefer you on the jury precisely because you do have reasonable doubt at this stage.

If they convince you beyond reasonable doubt then it’s likely to have been a strong case.

Certainly stronger than 12 people who already are utterly convinced of his guilt as the evidence stands, and would likely stubbornly refuse to consider anything that contradicts that preconception.

That’s one way innocent people end up in jail for 10-20 years fighting the system to get out (not saying RA is innocent - can’t tell/ have reasonable doubt).

And that injustice then usually means in typical cases that P and LE double down, stop investigating and then the killer is still not apprehended and brought to justice. That is the worst case scenario IMO for all concerned.

The best case scenario as I see it is if the P have some compelling evidence up their sleeve as yet unseen that irrefutably indicates RAs sole guilt - this would hopefully avoid his trial and potentially investigation and trial of others and bring some kind of closure. As long as that’s the whole truth then so be it.

So yes please continue to have reasonable doubt until you don’t! Justice works best when it holds back the hasty and delivers the truth.

Reasonable doubt and presumption of innocence - important foundations of justice.
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<modsnip>

That is the very reason Voir Dire exists, to weed out any potential jurors that might have a preconceived bias. I could say the same thing about having 12 people who are utterly convinced of his innocence.

I'm going to trust the attorneys on both sides to make intelligent decisions during this process.

Also, I do believe the Prosecution has some very compelling evidence of RA's guilt, but unlike the Defense, they are abiding by the gag order and not sensationalizing in bomb dropped, sneaky Motions filings that have nothing to do with the actual Motion.

MOO
 
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FrostedGlass said:
<modsnip -

Where does the dismissal of the attorney come from?
"A court may punish the defendant for contempt by fine, imprisonment, or both."
Click to expand...
It definitely could be a possibility that the Defense leaked the CS photos knowing they would get out to the public, just like they did their theory of the case in a response to a Franks Motion.

Approx 100 pages out of their 136 reply didn't even directly involve the Motion at hand (getting the SW dismissed), instead they laid out a sensationalized theory and exploited Abby and Libby by releasing the horrid step by step details of the Crime Scene.

That's what I have a problem with and I feel sure they will be sanctioned for it.

MOO
 
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steeltowngirl said:
I agree, motive is important to me in all cases, but in this one especially. If I were on the jury, with only circumstantial evidence and the vicious nature of the crime, I would want to know the why. Why would RA, the nice guy from CVS, who lives just around the corner in the little town of Delphi, do something like this? Prosecution will have to answer that question in the jurors’ minds.
Click to expand...
I believe we will find that RA had a very dark obsession with CSAM.

MOO
 
Emma Peel said:
ah! thank you very much!

Would love to know - What was it, specifically, that made Toby L realize that blood hounds could have made a difference for this case?
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I think in many knife cases, the murderer gets cut too. Maybe he thought if someone did this and walked away they would either be dripping blood that could be followed or some other item like the knife or weapon used could be dripping blood along they path out and the blood hound could follow that scent.. or even the victims blood on the perp could be maybe followed?
 
I've just caught up on the last 5 or so pages, anyway I wanted to address something that was mentioned several times. I've long held the theory that the girls may have said something or laughed and RA assumed they were laughing at him and he snapped. Absolutely no blame lies on the girls in this theory.

I've mostly held on to this theory because it could mean the girls weren't assaulted sexually before they died and that gave me the tiniest bit of comfort.

I have recently abandoned that theory and hope. I do think it was likely a sexually motivated crime, I think there will be much more information revealed during the trial if there is one that indicates prior sexually debased behavior.

JMO IMO
 
More on the topic. Shay admits predicting an outcome is impossible at the point.

fox59.com

Judge to weigh Delphi case options after leak discovery

CARROLL COUNTY, Ind. — Revelations over the weekend that the leak of defense team crime scene evidence to Delphi social media posters will force Allen Superior Judge Fran Gull to take a hard …
fox59.com fox59.com

“Baldwin is precluded from commenting on the case due to a standing Gag Order from Judge Gull. However, another defense attorney who knows Allen’s lawyer does not believe he intentionally participated in the leak.

I think highly of the attorneys involved and I think real highly of Andrew Baldwin,” said Shay Hughes of the Tippecanoe County Public Defenders Office. “I don’t think there’s any willfulness going on. Whether or not there’s negligent handling of the discovery, I don’t know. I would assume there are safeguards put in place.”

“Not only is there a Court Order regarding access to case discovery and an existing Gag Order, but Judge Gull also admonished the defense team last spring during an earlier inadvertent leak of discovery information to a third party.

Some of that leaked information was also shared on social media.

Baldwin could potentially be represented by a lawyer of his own in Judge Gull’s courtroom Thursday as she attempts to unravel this latest evidence leak…..

…..The court’s sanctions could range from a dressing down of the defense team up to dismissal of Allen’s lawyers.

”For Thursday, I think it’s premature for anything to be done,” said Hughes. “I think it will probably be referenced, but if you’re expecting any type of sanction or someone being found in contempt, that’s premature. Nothing has been filed to suggest that. I think the investigation into the leak needs to play its course and then it’s up to the state to how they want to address it later on.”….”
 
For the first time, cameras will be rolling on a court appearance by Delphi murders suspect Richard Allen. Allen's hearing is set to start at 2 p.m. at the Allen County Courthouse in Fort Wayne.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1714996317892600008


Crews just placed barriers outside the entrance of the Allen County Courthouse. Doors open at 8am. Richard Allen’s hearing starts at 2pm.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1714963583983931792



HAPPENING TODAY: The man charged in the #Delphi murders case, Richard Allen, is due back in court.


https://twitter.com/x/status/1714932806692876422
 
<modsnip - quoted post was removed>

While I'm firmly in the RA did it camp, due to the evidence we know about so far and the presumption that more damning evidence will be presented at trial; there are certain aspects that I wish were clearer. I do think there has been more evidence that convinces me of his guilt in this case than others.

<modsnip - response to quoted post>. I do think most, if not all, of us are here for the right reason, we want justice for Libby & Abby.
 
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MistyWaters said:
”For Thursday, I think it’s premature for anything to be done,” said Hughes. “I think it will probably be referenced, but if you’re expecting any type of sanction or someone being found in contempt, that’s premature. Nothing has been filed to suggest that. I think the investigation into the leak needs to play its course and then it’s up to the state to how they want to address it later on.”….”
Click to expand...
THIS.
 
I’m thinking of and praying for Abby and Liberty’s loved ones today and every day. I can’t imagine what they must be going through with the case document leak and the tremendous distress and worry that will have caused, in addition to having to face being in the same room as the defendant.

Thank you to all of you for your news updates and posts it is much appreciated.
 
iamnotagolem said:
I've just caught up on the last 5 or so pages, anyway I wanted to address something that was mentioned several times. I've long held the theory that the girls may have said something or laughed and RA assumed they were laughing at him and he snapped. Absolutely no blame lies on the girls in this theory.

I've mostly held on to this theory because it could mean the girls weren't assaulted sexually before they died and that gave me the tiniest bit of comfort.

I have recently abandoned that theory and hope. I do think it was likely a sexually motivated crime, I think there will be much more information revealed during the trial if there is one that indicates prior sexually debased behavior.

JMO IMO
Click to expand...

Yeah we really don’t know much at all yet. We can only guess at the motive for the murders and we may never know. After a conviction it’s quite common for killers to say they even know either. I’ve never murdered anybody nor broken the law but I can truthfully say I can look back at past situations in my life and I don’t know why I did them either. I’ve come to accept the fact that all humans are not thinking rationally or making conscious decisions 100% of the time.

I shudder at the thought of anyone blaming murder victims for their own murder, other than cases of self defence. It reminds me of the ‘old days’ when women wearing short skirts were blamed for getting raped.

I’ve heard it said and I strongly agree with this statement.…That the general public wants to know the motive of a killer to make us feel “safe”, so we‘d have the ability to recognize and predict that sort of trait in others in advance. Because if there‘s no reason at all it makes all people potentially dangerous.

JMO
 
MistyWaters said:
More on the topic. Shay admits predicting an outcome is impossible at the point.

fox59.com

Judge to weigh Delphi case options after leak discovery

CARROLL COUNTY, Ind. — Revelations over the weekend that the leak of defense team crime scene evidence to Delphi social media posters will force Allen Superior Judge Fran Gull to take a hard …
fox59.com fox59.com

“Baldwin is precluded from commenting on the case due to a standing Gag Order from Judge Gull. However, another defense attorney who knows Allen’s lawyer does not believe he intentionally participated in the leak.

I think highly of the attorneys involved and I think real highly of Andrew Baldwin,” said Shay Hughes of the Tippecanoe County Public Defenders Office. “I don’t think there’s any willfulness going on. Whether or not there’s negligent handling of the discovery, I don’t know. I would assume there are safeguards put in place.”

“Not only is there a Court Order regarding access to case discovery and an existing Gag Order, but Judge Gull also admonished the defense team last spring during an earlier inadvertent leak of discovery information to a third party.

Some of that leaked information was also shared on social media.

Baldwin could potentially be represented by a lawyer of his own in Judge Gull’s courtroom Thursday as she attempts to unravel this latest evidence leak…..

…..The court’s sanctions could range from a dressing down of the defense team up to dismissal of Allen’s lawyers.

”For Thursday, I think it’s premature for anything to be done,” said Hughes. “I think it will probably be referenced, but if you’re expecting any type of sanction or someone being found in contempt, that’s premature. Nothing has been filed to suggest that. I think the investigation into the leak needs to play its course and then it’s up to the state to how they want to address it later on.”….”
Click to expand...
Totally, the J will need access to the facts before deciding the appropriate course of action.

The question of wilful intention to leak is a difficult one to prove, even though its fairly evident that the D is at fault here. The investigation will be vital to prove intent.

I expect the D to get some kind of sanction or warning.

I also expect the J to deal with the leak and what she thinks of the 136p memo as two distinctly separate issues.
 
MistyWaters said:
Yeah we really don’t know much at all yet. We can only guess at the motive for the murders and we may never know. After a conviction it’s quite common for killers to say they even know either. I’ve never murdered anybody nor broken the law but I can truthfully say I can look back at past situations in my life and I don’t know why I did them either. I’ve come to accept the fact that all humans are not thinking rationally or making conscious decisions 100% of the time.

I shudder at the thought of anyone blaming murder victims for their own murder, other than cases of self defence. It reminds me of the ‘old days’ when women wearing short skirts were blamed for getting raped.

I’ve heard it said and I strongly agree with this statement.…That the general public wants to know the motive of a killer to make us feel “safe”, so we‘d have the ability to recognize and predict that sort of trait in others in advance. Because if there‘s no reason at all it makes all people potentially dangerous.

JMO
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, RA had already taken a huge risk in targeting these young women and kidnapping them by forcing them off the bridge/trail and into the woods. He took those risks and committed the very serious crime of kidnapping before they could say or do much of anything. His motive for that was, most likely, SA of minor children. He killed them because he didn't want them to identify him to police. The weapon(s) he used to kill them were brought by him to the crime scene.

It's sad that there are people like him who go unrecognized as a threat until they become one, but it's the reality of the situation. The best we can do is teach kids how to be safe and supervise them carefully.
 
Betty P said:
Unfortunately, RA had already taken a huge risk in targeting these young women and kidnapping them by forcing them off the bridge/trail and into the woods. He took those risks and committed the very serious crime of kidnapping before they could say or do much of anything. His motive for that was, most likely, SA of minor children. He killed them because he didn't want them to identify him to police. The weapon(s) he used to kill them were brought by him to the crime scene.

It's sad that there are people like him who go unrecognized as a threat until they become one, but it's the reality of the situation. The best we can do is teach kids how to be safe and supervise them carefully.
Click to expand...
This is where it gets interesting. We don't know RA's full background yet - this is one hell of a first crime to pull off in broad daylight with the 'elaboration' at the crime scene etc.

You have to wonder if it is RA who is proven to be the sole perp, what else do we not know about him as most profilers of these types of horrific crimes typically talk about a progression and a building up to something this risky and complex?
 
Aside from possible consequences to Baldwin, this former professional associate who worked with him, I can‘t help but speculate…..it’s someone who’s opinion is valued, former associate in a law office….so I’d guess is the leaker who stole the photos is also an attorney, either present or retired. If that’s so, the possible reason behind doing that is even more troublesome to contemplate because that individual would certainly understand the grave seriousness of the leak. Either Baldwin isn’t a good judge of character and freely shares confidential information with shady characters or he knowingly did so, I’m on the fence.

Regardless of the outcome this incident greatly harms the reputation of RA’s defence team. JMO

www.the-sun.com

Podcasters detail 'catastrophic leak' of Delphi crime scene pics & reveal fears

PODCASTERS who alerted authorities to a massive leak of crime scene photos from the Delphi murders have called the scandal a “terrible disaster” that will likely cause the victims’…
www.the-sun.com www.the-sun.com
“….All discovery evidence in the case is under a strict protective order, meaning it must not be shared with the public under any circumstances….

…….One of the persons allegedly involved was identified as a former professional associate of Allen's attorney Andrew Baldwin, the couple told The U.S. Sun.

There is no evidence to suggest either Baldwin or Rozzi is directly involved in the leak, they stressed, and ISP is currently probing precisely how the images came to light….”
 
SkyBoomer said:
I mean, I keep coming back to this- nothing seems to fit. He doesn’t look like BG or either sketch, he admitted to being there IN 2017 but nobody caught that (awesome police work), and he has zero history of violent or sexual crimes.

Police at every level made weird and vague statements which still make no sense. And imo the entire case was compromised by crap investigative work. DC and Tobe are, IMO, grandstanding attention seekers who mucked it up exponentially.

<modsnip - criticizing the nature of the discussion>

It is of course possible that RA is the sole murderer, but I have more than a reasonable doubt. Guess it’s good I won’t be on the jury.

MOO IMO YMMV
Click to expand...
I think he looks alot like the video, JMO
 
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