IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #172

[sunshineray]

RSBMFF
I think it’s safe to say, none of us forget why we are here. We all want justice for Abby and Libby and their families. It makes one sick to think of what happened to them. However, to bring true justice to bear, all of what you mention is necessary for real justice to be done. Discussion about the accused, the D and the J. It’s impossible to ignore all of this regardless how much we want this to be about A & L. Without the “housekeeping” there will be no justice. And, we want a “clean” house.

It’s certainly not hard to see the polarization here. There are those here that without a doubt believe “they’ve got the right guy.” Let’s dispense with all the talk and get him where he belongs, for the rest of his life, never mind any exculpatory evidence. Then there are those that are not convinced the evidence is strong against the accused. Personally, right now, with what I have seen and heard, I’m quite concerned about whether they have the right guy. That doesn’t mean I don’t want justice. I’ve said it before, I want the right justice. I cannot believe that the girls’ families or even the girls themselves, if they could speak, would want a potentially innocent man to go to prison for the rest of his life, or dare I say even spend one minute in a prison if innocent. Putting an innocent man in prison is not justice for anyone, least of all for the falsely accused. All JMHO.

ed:sp

Sbm

Let’s dispense with all the talk and get him where he belongs, for the rest of his life, never mind any exculpatory evidence

I think you mischaracterize the people who may think RA is most likely guilty. To say they want to dispense with everything and not consider exculpatory information (evidence if it's allowed into the trial) is I think unfair.

That's all, IMO, at the heart of the posters who may think RA is most likely guilty, the not wanting to dispense with the talk or potential exculpatory information but to have it play out in a courtroom. To have it play out in front of a jury...NOT in the news. And most certainly not with anyone leaking sensitive and confidential discovery before trial via social media.

Let's hope and pray this case can get back on track and move forward. AJMO

 

[mrjitty]

I think the defendant's right to a speedy trial is very important. If that means the original attorneys are reinstated, then that is what should happen.

The idea someone can wait two years for a trial without even a prelim or bail hearing seems unjust to me. Is that usual in the US?

How do we know the prosecutor is not going to trial with some witnesses and some scratches on an unspent cartridge ejected from a gun? The entire case may come down to expert testimony regarding toolmark analysis. It would be wrong to keep Richard Allen in prison any longer than what he already has been while denying him the right to choose the attorneys who represent him.

I do not know what to think regarding Richard Allen's guilt or innocence. I cannot understand why he would confess if he did not do it, but there have been other cases where people confessed that were innocent. But since the confessions Richard Allen gave came before the evidence leak, if they contain any information that only the killer would know, then I think a jury will probably convict him no matter how many Odinist theories the defense puts forth. But no one knows what type of confessions Richard Allen made.

If the evidence against Richard Allen is strong, shouldn't people want him to get to trial as soon as possible so the families can have some resolution in this case?

When I thought about all this, I guess the safeguard is some of this stuff is in the defence's control. They could have asked for a bail hearing, or requested a speedy trial. They did indeed challenge the search warrant. But given the vast amount of discovery speed doesn't seem realistic.

Personally I'd like to see the defendant bailed if there will be a one year delay, as the delay is not his fault. But that seems unlikely I guess?

02c

 

[girlhasnoname]

RSBMFF
I think it’s safe to say, none of us forget why we are here. We all want justice for Abby and Libby and their families. It makes one sick to think of what happened to them. However, to bring true justice to bear, all of what you mention is necessary for real justice to be done. Discussion about the accused, the D and the J. It’s impossible to ignore all of this regardless how much we want this to be about A & L. Without the “housekeeping” there will be no justice. And, we want a “clean” house.

It’s certainly not hard to see the polarization here. There are those here that without a doubt believe “they’ve got the right guy.” Let’s dispense with all the talk and get him where he belongs, for the rest of his life, never mind any exculpatory evidence. Then there are those that are not convinced the evidence is strong against the accused. Personally, right now, with what I have seen and heard, I’m quite concerned about whether they have the right guy. That doesn’t mean I don’t want justice. I’ve said it before, I want the right justice. I cannot believe that the girls’ families or even the girls themselves, if they could speak, would want a potentially innocent man to go to prison for the rest of his life, or dare I say even spend one minute in a prison if innocent. Putting an innocent man in prison is not justice for anyone, least of all for the falsely accused. All JMHO.

ed:sp

The leak and gross misconduct by the Defense is not 'housekeeping'. It is a very serious charge to which they admitted came from their good friend MW, a legal assistant NOT a licensed attorney. I believe there is more to the story than he just wandered aimlessly into AB's conference room and stumbled on all of the information by chance. I believe he had conversations about the case (he admitted AB liked to bounce ideas off him and others when he was on the MS Podcast).

I'm not sure of what exculpatory evidence is out there that we are ignoring?? The Memorandum in Support of FM by the Defense was full of inaccuracies and half truths. We aren't privy to what the State did to investigate the alternative suspects and theories they put forth (on blast) to clear them. We haven't heard any of the State's case, rightly so, as they're under a gag order. We've only gotten the PCA and SW results from the State so far.

It's not a huge leap to believe RA is the right man. He looks just like the video clip taken by Libby, he was there self admittedly, on the day, at the time, wearing matching clothing, seen by witnesses who saw no other man on the bridge during that timeline or saw him exit. He owned a weapon using the same caliber of bullet as the one recovered from the CS. He self confessed 5 times to the killings on a recorded phone conversation with his wife and mother. What else does the State have that we have no clue of yet? Probably a lot more.

I don't judge the possibility of RA's guilt or innocence without thoughtful consideration of the facts as we know them today.

MOO

 

[steeltowngirl]

I personally don't feel comfortable insinuating that a medical emergency might have been planned around a court docket nor case.

I immediately noticed Judge Gull did not look good during the on camera short appearance she made on Oct 19th.

moo

Right! The reporter JS called out that FG is working from home. As he also does, according to his own bio:

After some time reporting in other areas, Joe joined the FOX59/CBS4 team in March of 2022 and he is happy to be back in Naptown. He currently works for the station’s digital and assignment desks, working online and over the phone to report local crime, political and education news.

Joe Schroeder

FOX59/CBS4 Digital Producer Joe Schroeder reports on crime, breaking news and more in areas across central Indiana, in addition to answering phones and coordinating reporter schedules on the weeken…

fox59.com

 

[FrostedGlass]

The leak and gross misconduct by the Defense is not 'housekeeping'. It is a very serious charge to which they admitted came from their good friend MW, a legal assistant NOT a licensed attorney. I believe there is more to the story than he just wandered aimlessly into AB's conference room and stumbled on all of the information by chance. I believe he had conversations about the case (he admitted AB liked to bounce ideas off him and others when he was on the MS Podcast).

I'm not sure of what exculpatory evidence is out there that we are ignoring?? The Memorandum in Support of FM by the Defense was full of inaccuracies and half truths. We aren't privy to what the State did to investigate the alternative suspects and theories they put forth (on blast) to clear them. We haven't heard any of the State's case, rightly so, as they're under a gag order. We've only gotten the PCA and SW results from the State so far.

It's not a huge leap to believe RA is the right man. He looks just like the video clip taken by Libby, he was there self admittedly, on the day, at the time, wearing matching clothing, seen by witnesses who saw no other man on the bridge during that timeline or saw him exit. He owned a weapon using the same caliber of bullet as the one recovered from the CS. He self confessed 5 times to the killings on a recorded phone conversation with his wife and mother. What else does the State have that we have no clue of yet? Probably a lot more.

I don't judge the possibility of RA's guilt or innocence without thoughtful consideration of the facts as we know them today.

MOO

As for the confession: Nick McLeland told the world a number of times that RA confessed to his wife and mother. What he did not say was: "He confessed to knowing things that only the killer knows." I don't believe for one moment that he would have held that information close to his vest if RA said it.

Judge gull's decisions and charges bought her two cases being heard by the highest court in the state: Indiana Supreme Court. We'll have to wait for their decisions to know if she was acting within her legal authority or not.

I'd like to suggest some good reading relating to Judge Gull's actions:
23S-OR-00311

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

 

[steeltowngirl]

So here’s where we are.

Some believe the memorandum was ground-breaking in exposing LE’s mistakes, and exculpatory for RA, who was targeted by LE as a fall guy. Gull‘s actions are under review and many legal folks, media, and members of the public believe her actions were hinky, and possibly part of a grand plan to thwart RA’s defense and his rights. Got it.

Others believe RA’s original defense was throwing mud at the wall with the memorandum, and the leak may have been orchestrated to sabotage prosecution from moving quickly to trial, and to have the judge removed, or to recuse. Got it.

Now we await SCOIN’s response to learn if B&R will be reinstated (pro-bono, or appointed as public defenders.) We await their decision on sanctions against Gull. B&R still matter to this case. Got it.

I still have questions.
Who killed Libby and Abby?
RA? What is the totality of evidence?
If it was RA, did he do it alone, or were others involved?
WHO are they? WHERE are they?
Are the killers still out there, free to kill again, or is the right and solo suspect behind bars?

What have I missed?

 

[FromGermany1]

As for the confession: Nick McLeland told the world a number of times that RA confessed to his wife and mother. What he did not say was: "He confessed to knowing things that only the killer knows." I don't believe for one moment that he would have held that information close to his vest if RA said it.

Judge gull's decisions and charges bought her two cases being heard by the highest court in the state: Indiana Supreme Court. We'll have to wait for their decisions to know if she was acting within her legal authority or not.

I'd like to suggest some good reading relating to Judge Gull's actions:
23S-OR-00311

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

RA confessed to things "as charged". Does it mean, he confessed only to being the killer, without saying more to it? Did he say nothing, not a single detail, only a killer would have known?
Could he have been so very intelligent and calculating, although "under the threat by Odinists", to have to confess to his loved ones at least 5 times? IF there was a threat, of course.

 

[girlhasnoname]

As for the confession: Nick McLeland told the world a number of times that RA confessed to his wife and mother. What he did not say was: "He confessed to knowing things that only the killer knows." I don't believe for one moment that he would have held that information close to his vest if RA said it.

Judge gull's decisions and charges bought her two cases being heard by the highest court in the state: Indiana Supreme Court. We'll have to wait for their decisions to know if she was acting within her legal authority or not.

I'd like to suggest some good reading relating to Judge Gull's actions:
23S-OR-00311

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

How do we know exactly what RA said in those taped conversations? I haven't seen a transcript, is there one out there that I missed? Even so, when confessing to his wife and mother, I wouldn't find it surprising that he would leave the gruesome and heinous details out.

I think he was confessing after he read the State's discovery dump and wanting to tell them ahead of time for fear they would hear it elsewhere. I think there's something symbolic in RA eating parts of the discovery docs, maybe even he couldn't handle seeing them in black and white? IDK, just a guess on my part.

I've read the document you referenced and as I've said many times, if Judge G is found to have intentionally violated the rights of RA and due process, she should recuse herself or the SCOIN should.

JMO

 

[Jurisprudence]

RSBMFF
I think it’s safe to say, none of us forget why we are here. We all want justice for Abby and Libby and their families. It makes one sick to think of what happened to them. However, to bring true justice to bear, all of what you mention is necessary for real justice to be done. Discussion about the accused, the D and the J. It’s impossible to ignore all of this regardless how much we want this to be about A & L. Without the “housekeeping” there will be no justice. And, we want a “clean” house.

It’s certainly not hard to see the polarization here. There are those here that without a doubt believe “they’ve got the right guy.” Let’s dispense with all the talk and get him where he belongs, for the rest of his life, never mind any exculpatory evidence. Then there are those that are not convinced the evidence is strong against the accused. Personally, right now, with what I have seen and heard, I’m quite concerned about whether they have the right guy. That doesn’t mean I don’t want justice. I’ve said it before, I want the right justice. I cannot believe that the girls’ families or even the girls themselves, if they could speak, would want a potentially innocent man to go to prison for the rest of his life, or dare I say even spend one minute in a prison if innocent. Putting an innocent man in prison is not justice for anyone, least of all for the falsely accused. All JMHO.

ed:sp

Well said. Will it resonate? I hope so.

How do we know the prosecutor is not going to trial with some witnesses and some scratches on an unspent cartridge ejected from a gun? The entire case may come down to expert testimony regarding toolmark analysis. It would be wrong to keep Richard Allen in prison any longer than what he already has been while denying him the right to choose the attorneys who represent him.

I do not know what to think regarding Richard Allen's guilt or innocence. I cannot understand why he would confess if he did not do it, but there have been other cases where people confessed that were innocent. But since the confessions Richard Allen gave came before the evidence leak, if they contain any information that only the killer would know, then I think a jury will probably convict him no matter how many Odinist theories the defense puts forth. But no one knows what type of confessions Richard Allen made.

sbbm
This is my assessment based on the public facing information we know. It's the reason I believe they would have pushed forward to trial and it's also the reason the state needed to stop the clock and have the time (delay) charged to accused, not to the state. jmo

If the evidence against Richard Allen is strong, shouldn't people want him to get to trial as soon as possible so the families can have some resolution in this case?

sbbm
Agree. You would think. It shouldn't be tribal. There should be some modicum of objective and rational thinking. Not sure if its strictly emotions, incapacity, or both. jmo

I thoughtfully disagree with you.

<modsnip: snarky>

jmo

 

[Jurisprudence]

I think it insinuates that the initial incident requiring treatment hapened 19 daus ago and that she is now home recovering.

How many days was she not at home recovering and instead out of commission while receiving whatever "necessary treatment" that medical professionals deemed she required. I'm not seeing that it was a "one and done" thing or a single day thing. There seems to be a gap in the reportage.

Whatever it was that happened, it does seem like the imminent danger passed. According to the article she's already back to work remotely, and will be physically back in-court soon it says. So, that's a good sign. I think the timing of the article gave pause. If the timing of the release had nothing to do with case so be it. But, it's not unusual to have a news dump in law, high profile cases, as in politics, to manipulate the news cycle. So that question did cross some minds. And, you saw it at play out in real time yesterday. The news shifted from "Relator reply brief filed this morning states case not mooted bc only 20% was cured as opposed to what respondent claims" to "JG (respondent) hospitalized". I don't think anyone who wondered about this did so with intent to wish the judge harm.

jmo

 

[girlhasnoname]

As for the confession: Nick McLeland told the world a number of times that RA confessed to his wife and mother. What he did not say was: "He confessed to knowing things that only the killer knows." I don't believe for one moment that he would have held that information close to his vest if RA said it.

Judge gull's decisions and charges bought her two cases being heard by the highest court in the state: Indiana Supreme Court. We'll have to wait for their decisions to know if she was acting within her legal authority or not.

I'd like to suggest some good reading relating to Judge Gull's actions:
23S-OR-00311

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

I've said as long as we've been on these threads (a long time now btw) I appreciate your posts and the chance for a discussion without snark or criticism FG.

We all ultimately want justice for Abby & Libby first and foremost.

IMO

 

[Salah11]

The idea someone can wait two years for a trial without even a prelim or bail hearing seems unjust to me. Is that usual in the US?


When I thought about all this, I guess the safeguard is some of this stuff is in the defence's control. They could have asked for a bail hearing, or requested a speedy trial. They did indeed challenge the search warrant. But given the vast amount of discovery speed doesn't seem realistic.

Personally I'd like to see the defendant bailed if there will be a one year delay, as the delay is not his fault. But that seems unlikely I guess?

02c

Bail hearing are you joking?

He is stood accused of murdering 2 children so bail should not be an option in a million years. Who in their right mind wants a double charged child killer on the streets?

He hasn’t go into a local supermarket and shoplifted some pick n mix here. He has been charged with the most heinous of crimes and the right place is jail until a trial.


IMO

 

[susiQ]

I can see you have a strong opinion and artful way of describing what you believe has transpired during the investigation.

Why would LE need to reopen an investigation that is ongoing, according to the prosecutor and stated in court by him before a judge?

The delay of RA's trial, IMO, lays totally on the shoulders of his former defense team, their continued negligent actions and non-actions.

Also the defendant has, according to the prosecutor, confessed no less than five times. It's very likely LE zeroed in on the right guy. The tip lines are still open though and it's also a possiblity that others may be involved before, during or after the fact.
Thoughtfully AJMO

I respectfully disagree. I’m not the OP but there are some things that need to be “fairly” assessed.

“Why would LE need to reopen an investigation that is ongoing?“ They don’t, they just need to go back and reinvestigate those people they failed to investigate properly the first time. Liggett by all accounts lied by omission by failing to reveal exculpatory evidence and gaining a SW and then the AW by not being honest and forthright. Why would he do that? Is it not in the best interest of all concerned to know there is exculpatory evidence? What is there to gain by arresting the wrong man? Waste of time and resources. But hey, NM’s got 2.1 million to try the case with what may amount to very flimsy evidence, a lone bullet.

Concerning the delays that you say, IYO, ”lays totally on the shoulders of his” D, R & B, I dispute that. Had LE done what they should have done years ago, and not given certain characters a pass, individuals that should have been investigated thoroughly, we would not be here at all. This would have been over with a long time ago. But no, they could not have the trail going back to a certain individual because of who he is associated with.

And those ”tip” lines are still open! Yeah great! They sure worked before didn’t they? They had the tips and they did not thoroughly investigate them. Nothing more than the fox guarding the henhouse. Don’t like the tip? Just ignore it. I think R & B should set up a tip line. Maybe then things would get investigated the way they should be. AJMVHO

 

[Jurisprudence]

So here’s where we are.

Some believe the memorandum was ground-breaking in exposing LE’s mistakes, and exculpatory for RA, who was targeted by LE as a fall guy.

sbm

The FM provided the public with additional evidence and information. Theory aside, it was based on discovery obtained from the state. It is clear there are many not happy we saw this evidence and I am not sure why. The jury would have to see it, unless it is ignored by the new defense (basically a built-in appeal imo), and I would hope the jury would keep an open mind and evaluate it. I want the person who did this held responsible - but it must be the right person or there will be no justice. Is it RA? I don't know anymore but I would have known come January. Unfortunately, that's not happening anymore. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

jmo

 

[FrostedGlass]

How do we know exactly what RA said in those taped conversations? I haven't seen a transcript, is there one out there that I missed? Even so, when confessing to his wife and mother, I wouldn't find it surprising that he would leave the gruesome and heinous details out.

I think he was confessing after he read the State's discovery dump and wanting to tell them ahead of time for fear they would hear it elsewhere. I think there's something symbolic in RA eating parts of the discovery docs, maybe even he couldn't handle seeing them in black and white? IDK, just a guess on my part.

I've read the document you referenced and as I've said many times, if Judge G is found to have intentionally violated the rights of RA and due process, she should recuse herself or the SCOIN should.

JMO

RA wouldn't have to reveal gory details, just something about the crime scene to convince his wife that he was telling her the truth.

While we're guessing about his odd behavior, let's guess about the meds he might have been given at that time.

It's good that you read the document; as many times as you've repeated "gross negligence" I didn't think you understood that's not been proven.

 

[helpfulcharlie]

How do we know exactly what RA said in those taped conversations? I haven't seen a transcript, is there one out there that I missed? Even so, when confessing to his wife and mother, I wouldn't find it surprising that he would leave the gruesome and heinous details out.

I think he was confessing after he read the State's discovery dump and wanting to tell them ahead of time for fear they would hear it elsewhere. I think there's something symbolic in RA eating parts of the discovery docs, maybe even he couldn't handle seeing them in black and white? IDK, just a guess on my part.

I've read the document you referenced and as I've said many times, if Judge G is found to have intentionally violated the rights of RA and due process, she should recuse herself or the SCOIN should.

JMO

TBH this is the most vital piece of missing information for me. If it was said out of frustration or sarcasm, and glommed onto for propaganda purposes, as opposed to sincere, pained resignation, that would make a world of difference in the case for me. I can't WAIT to read the transcripts of those conversations, I hope they come out at trial.

 

[steeltowngirl]

sbm

The FM provided the public with additional evidence and information. Theory aside, it was based on discovery obtained from the state. It is clear there are many not happy we saw this evidence and I am not sure why. The jury would have to see it, unless it is ignored by the new defense (basically a built-in appeal imo), and I would hope the jury would keep an open mind and evaluate it. I want the person who did this held responsible - but it must be the right person or there will be no justice. Is it RA? I don't know anymore but I would have known come January. Unfortunately, that's not happening anymore. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

jmo

Agree - with a caveat. The FM was an interpretation of discovery and evidence, yet unseen in its entirety.

 

[girlhasnoname]

RA wouldn't have to reveal gory details, just something about the crime scene to convince his wife that he was telling her the truth.

While we're guessing about his odd behavior, let's guess about the meds he might have been given at that time.

It's good that you read the document; as many times as you've repeated "gross negligence" I didn't think you understood that's not been proven.

How is the Defense admitting to being responsible through a 3rd party for leaking the highly sensitive CS photos and depositions and naming non POI (according to LE) and in a Memorandum not gross negligence? It's exactly why we are where we are in this case today.

• Gross Negligence means an indifference to, and/or a blatant violation of a legal duty with respect of the rights of others, being a conscious and voluntary disregard of the need to use reasonable care, which is likely to cause foreseeable grave injury or harm to persons, property, or both.

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

TBH this is the most vital piece of missing information for me. If it was said out of frustration or sarcasm, and glommed onto for propaganda purposes, as opposed to sincere, pained resignation, that would make a world of difference in the case for me. I can't WAIT to read the transcripts of those conversations, I hope they come out at trial.

I absolutely believe they will and I will also be curious to see if he repeated basically the same story each time. Even the Defense conceded that RA had implicated himself in the crimes, that was during the hearing where they were going to talk about a transfer and possibly bail. June IIRC?

MOO

 

[MistyWaters]

As for the confession: Nick McLeland told the world a number of times that RA confessed to his wife and mother. What he did not say was: "He confessed to knowing things that only the killer knows." I don't believe for one moment that he would have held that information close to his vest if RA said it.

Judge gull's decisions and charges bought her two cases being heard by the highest court in the state: Indiana Supreme Court. We'll have to wait for their decisions to know if she was acting within her legal authority or not.

I'd like to suggest some good reading relating to Judge Gull's actions:
23S-OR-00311

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

It is simply not true that NMcL “told the world a number of times that RA confessed to his wife and mother”. Where are you getting that from? The only reason we know about it is because reference was contained within motions pertaining to RA’s mental health records that was released when the large batch of motions was unsealed last June. Nothing more, no transcript.

Delphi documents: Richard Allen told wife he killed girls; investigators believe knife used in murders

DELPHI, Ind. – Documents unsealed Wednesday in the 2017 Delphi murders provide new insight into the case against Richard Allen. They also reveal for the first time publicly how investigators believ…

fox59.com

A separate document revealed that Allen admitted to the murders on April 3, 2023, during a phone call with his wife. She ended the call abruptly, according to court documents.

“Investigators had the phone call transcribed and the transcription confirms that Richard Allen admits that he committed the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German,” the document said. “He admits several times within the phone call that he committed the offenses as charged.”
Prosecutors also wrote that Allen confessed to his mother during a phone call from jail.

Allen “has admitted that he committed the offenses that he is charged with no less than 5 times while talking to his wife and his mother on the public jail phones available at the Indiana Department of Corrections,” according to a state filing regarding Allen’s mental health records.

Allen’s attorneys argued that he’s under great physical and mental duress because of his time in captivity and don’t believe his admission is reliable. Prosecutors countered, however, that Allen’s behavior changed drastically after the April 3 admission. He hasn’t made a single phone call since then, and had to undergo a psychiatric evaluation.

By April 14, according to court documents, Allen’s strange behavior began to subside and he was eating and sleeping regularly once more.…”