IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #174

[FrostedGlass]

IMO ORION is part of the tip management system that was used in the investigation.

https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/news/stories/2008/september/orion_092208

Thank you. (Good to see you pop in.)
It's quite a tool!
I'm dense...
did Dulin enter the tip into ORION and then 5 years later, ORION popped it out to Liggett? OR something else?

[snips]
Now we have such a tool, a next-generation system built from the ground up by our investigators and technology experts. We call it ORION—the Operational Response and Investigative Online Network.

ORION gives the FBI and its partners a real-time, online network to quickly and effectively coordinate efforts in crisis situations, no matter how many law enforcement personnel are involved…where they might be located…or how big the case.

So if an investigation expands from New York to Chicago to Miami, agents in every city could log into ORION and have instant access to every scrap of information on the case, says Supervisory Special Agent Mike McCoy, an investigator on the sniper case who helped design the system.

ORION also has new automated features. When a phone tip is entered into the system, ORION can actively process that raw data and “push” leads and intelligence to investigators. For example, if a phone tip is received in the L.A. office about a person in Boston who could be a suspect in a nationwide terrorism case, that information is entered into ORION, reviewed in L.A., and instantly routed electronically to Boston agents for action.

 

[photographer4]

A neutral voice is a good thing!

The fact that DD stood up there in the press conference a week or so after the murders, and the image of BG did not ring a bell, makes me wonder if he was the one who took that tip. It's not signed or dated by anyone.

We know Liggett was provided a tip narrative from ORION DIN-000074-01 to review. It was from Dan Dulin.
Who or what is the ORION reference?

How the heck do we have a tip not signed or dated by anyone! In such an important investigation! Do we even know who Dulin turned his tip narrative into, or when? Why has he been unable to locate the recording? What did he record it on?!

 

[Jade]

Well, according to the FM what Abby was wearing was clean and didn’t even have blood on it. So I’m not confident those girls walked across the creek to be honest. I recall at one point when discussing all the YouTubers out there etc LE stated no one has it right. This makes me think they didn’t go across via the water. I’d believe a canoe maybe. I don’t know. It’s too awful to even think about.

Please quote FM for “clean” I haven’t seen that word in describing the clothes but it’s a horrible read so I may have missed it

According to FM Abby was redressed in Libby’s clothes which had “little to no blood”. To me “little to no” means hardly any. Which is different than none.



Canoes are awkward, heavy and have to be transported to a launch location. A canoe to carry three would be nearly twice RA’s height.

Then the paddle has to managed so one is not up the creek without.

Having been on canoe trips with girl scouts everyone getting in, paddling and everyone getting out is not easy even with everyone cooperating.

When Holeman said You Tube folks aren’t getting it right because they don’t know the true details was in 2019.

Now that the Defense has spilled the tea on the crime scene staging and perversion we all know what Holeman was talking about.


Why Police Have Not Released Details on the Murders of Libby German and Abby Williams from Delphi, Indiana



imo

 

[FrostedGlass]

How the heck do we have a tip not signed or dated by anyone! In such an important investigation! Do we even know who Dulin turned his tip narrative into, or when? Why has he been unable to locate the recording? What did he record it on?!

On page 111 is a copy of the tip narrative.
The narrative itself appears to have no signature or date.
Perhaps that info is somewhere else but we don't see it.
I believe the D asked about the recording.
I wondered if the narrative got lost in a drawer but since it seems to have come from ORION??

https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2023/06/DelphiDocumentsCombined.pdf

 

[photographer4]

Link for Libby's clothes Abby was dressed in were "clean" ?

As far as blood on clothing the D’s contradict themselves on Page 29
https://www.scribd.com/document/672126677/DELPHI-Memorandum-in-Support-of-Motion-pdf

First saying: “No blood appeared on Abby’s clothing,”

Then: “very little (if any) blood was found anywhere else on Abby’s body or clothing.”

And: “lack of blood on Abby’s body/undergarments/over garments”

So which was it: no, very little or if any, or lack of? How are they quantifying that as visible or tested as blood?

Page 34: 14. […] there was little-to-no blood found on any of the clothing Abby was wearing […]

Page 39: 64. “Since there appeared to be no blood on Abby’s tennis shoes and other clothing […]”

66. “[…] Abby had no visible blood on her body or clothes […]”

D’s are slippery about the blood on clothing:

“Abby was fully clothed. In fact, Abby was dressed in Libby’s sweatshirt and jeans. No blood appeared on Abby’s clothing, […]”

What about Libby’s clothes with “little to no blood” Abby was dressed in?

Which its it little or no blood and who’s since DNA is mentioned about the tree blood when it suits their theory?

The D’s try to impose their theory by referring to BG as “murderers”

What other evidence have they presented besides that they feel RA is overall inadequate so there surely must have been some real men around?

Any evidence that there were multiples of grown men gathering in the area of MHB during the time frame?

No, we have Abby’s evidence showing us a single man advancing on them then a recording of a single voice ordering them down the hill.

all imo

I think you covered my "clean" assertion quite well - it just doesn't seem that the clothes Abby was found in were wet or dirty - or wasn't mentioned by the Defense.

 

[Schatz]

Sorry - having a hard time keeping up. Someone (I think @photographer4 and/or @zh0r4 ) were perhaps attempting to point out something several pages ago that has been niggling at the back of my mind re: the leaked crime scene photos. I don't know who MRC is or if he is a real person - as far as I know he's someone from Texas? But my point is this - do we know for a fact that the crime scene photos leaked by MW to RF included the photos of deceased Abby and Libby? Or was it simply the F on the tree? I have been wondering if someone else (MRC? someone else?) may have inserted actual crime scene photos that they attained some other way aside from MW. Thoughts?

ETA: "some other way" as in along the assumed chain of command. Did MRC or someone else insert the actual depictions of the girls into this chain of command between the law office and "the content creators"? I wonder.

 

[Jade]

I think you covered my "clean" assertion quite well - it just doesn't seem that the clothes Abby was found in were wet or dirty - or wasn't mentioned by the Defense.

Notable, I agree, the FM didn’t mention anything beyond shrugging off the blood.

But I don’t assume because it’s clean. I think it’s something they don’t want to talk about.


imo

 

[susiQ]

IMO ORION is part of the tip management system that was used in the investigation.

https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/news/stories/2008/september/orion_092208

It sure would be interesting to know just how many times RA was “tipped in,” to LE during those 5 + years, if ever?By October 28th, 2022, over 40,000 tips had been received. Yes, I’d really like to know how many times in comparison to some other questionable individuals we’ve learned about. How many of them were tipped in and how many times? Just really curious!

 

[photographer4]

Sorry - having a hard time keeping up. Someone (I think @photographer4 and/or @zh0r4 ) were perhaps attempting to point out something several pages ago that has been niggling at the back of my mind re: the leaked crime scene photos. I don't know who MRC is or if he is a real person - as far as I know he's someone from Texas? But my point is this - do we know for a fact that the crime scene photos leaked by MW to RF included the photos of deceased Abby and Libby? Or was it simply the F on the tree? I have been wondering if someone else (MRC? someone else?) may have inserted actual crime scene photos that they attained some other way aside from MW. Thoughts?

ETA: "some other way" as in along the assumed chain of command. Did MRC or someone else insert the actual depictions of the girls into this chain of command between the law office and "the content creators"? I wonder.

We don't? I was wondering this as well because he was charged I think with a not super serious crime - at least it does not SOUND super serious?

"Mitchell Westerman, 41, stands accused of one count of conversion — the typical common law term for theft — over the leak of sensitive crime scene photos. The charge is a class A misdemeanor." - Man charged over evidence leak in Delphi murders case that led to removal of defense attorneys

It doesn't seem like he was charged with break of court order (breaking the gag order), or that he was charged with CSAM (which, couldn't he have been if the photos he shared / possessed included nude kids (I would think so, but am I wrong here?). He's charged with theft. What even is the punishment for that if he's found guilty? And why is he even taking it to trial?

 

[Caylee Advocate]

There are some good photos in this article. My how some things look different to me now. Rest in heaven Libby and Abby.

Police: Missing Indiana teens ruled a double homicide

www.jconline.com

 

[zh0r4]

Sorry - having a hard time keeping up. Someone (I think @photographer4 and/or @zh0r4 ) were perhaps attempting to point out something several pages ago that has been niggling at the back of my mind re: the leaked crime scene photos. I don't know who MRC is or if he is a real person - as far as I know he's someone from Texas? But my point is this - do we know for a fact that the crime scene photos leaked by MW to RF included the photos of deceased Abby and Libby? Or was it simply the F on the tree? I have been wondering if someone else (MRC? someone else?) may have inserted actual crime scene photos that they attained some other way aside from MW. Thoughts?

ETA: "some other way" as in along the assumed chain of command. Did MRC or someone else insert the actual depictions of the girls into this chain of command between the law office and "the content creators"? I wonder.

From my understanding, MRC, from Texas, is the big leaker to all of the podcasters and to MW. This is what has been confusing me-why would MRC need to send the alleged photos to MW if MW is the one who stole them from AB’s office? Wouldn’t it be MRC receiving them from MW? I don’t understand. Maybe I’m missing something/confused about who had them first? Why isn’t MRC being prosecuted?

 

[Emma Peel]

From my understanding, MRC, from Texas, is the big leaker to all of the podcasters and to MW. This is what has been confusing me-why would MRC need to send the alleged photos to MW if MW is the one who stole them from AB’s office? Wouldn’t it be MRC receiving them from MW? I don’t understand. Maybe I’m missing something/confused about who had them first? Why isn’t MRC being prosecuted?

quick thought, jmo: he flipped on MW & RL (cooperated). MS reported as much.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Link for Libby's clothes Abby was dressed in were "clean" ?

As far as blood on clothing the D’s contradict themselves on Page 29
https://www.scribd.com/document/672126677/DELPHI-Memorandum-in-Support-of-Motion-pdf

First saying: “No blood appeared on Abby’s clothing,”

Then: “very little (if any) blood was found anywhere else on Abby’s body or clothing.”

And: “lack of blood on Abby’s body/undergarments/over garments”

So which was it: no, very little or if any, or lack of? How are they quantifying that as visible or tested as blood?

Page 34: 14. […] there was little-to-no blood found on any of the clothing Abby was wearing […]

Page 39: 64. “Since there appeared to be no blood on Abby’s tennis shoes and other clothing […]”

66. “[…] Abby had no visible blood on her body or clothes […]”

D’s are slippery about the blood on clothing:

“Abby was fully clothed. In fact, Abby was dressed in Libby’s sweatshirt and jeans. No blood appeared on Abby’s clothing, […]”

What about Libby’s clothes with “little to no blood” Abby was dressed in?

Which its it little or no blood and who’s since DNA is mentioned about the tree blood when it suits their theory?

The D’s try to impose their theory by referring to BG as “murderers”

What other evidence have they presented besides that they feel RA is overall inadequate so there surely must have been some real men around?

Any evidence that there were multiples of grown men gathering in the area of MHB during the time frame?

No, we have Abby’s evidence showing us a single man advancing on them then a recording of a single voice ordering them down the hill.

all imo

This is quoting from the Defense Memorandum in support of Franks. I don't buy it, especially considering they didn't talk to the ME who did the autopsies on Abby & Libby.

Agreed, we do have irrefutable video evidence of BG=RA IMO, advancing on them at the time of the murders. Then add in subsequent confessions and I believe the State has the goods on RA for a conviction.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

There are some good photos in this article. My how some things look different to me now. Rest in heaven Libby and Abby.

Police: Missing Indiana teens ruled a double homicide

www.jconline.com

Sadly, I don't believe Abby & Libby or their loved ones with able to truly rest or find peace until someone is tried for their murders and convicted.

Maybe then they start the healing process, but it has been one heck of an emotional rollercoaster since Feb 13, 2017.

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

I think you have an error here. Or maybe it’s my reading comprehension before adequate coffee consumption.
RA initially told CO Dublin that he had been on Freedom Bridge heading toward MHB when he saw 3 teenage girls. He said he was there between 1330-1530 (1:30-3:30). He said he did not see Abby or Libby.
During his October 13, 2022 interview RA stated he had been at the trail from 12-130.
IMO this is a clear case of adaption.
Adaption is a pretty clear indication of guilt. The suspect adapts their story after knowledge of evidence to try to distance themselves.
He knew the 3 teens had seen him around 130 so he thought changing his timeline would clear him. The problem is there are more witnesses.

Thanks @Cyber sleuth. I knew I kept remembering RA said he arrived at Noon and left around 1:30. It was driving me crazy why I had that stuck in my head. Ta Dah....it's from the Defense's Memo Page 112 of 136:

For starters, as noted earlier, in his interview with Liggett and Mullin, Richard Allen stated that he (Richard Allen) arrived at the trails around noon and left around 1:30 pm

https://www.scribd.com/document/672126677/DELPHI-Memorandum-in-Support-of-Motion-pdf

 

[girlhasnoname]

On page 111 is a copy of the tip narrative.
The narrative itself appears to have no signature or date.
Perhaps that info is somewhere else but we don't see it.
I believe the D asked about the recording.
I wondered if the narrative got lost in a drawer but since it seems to have come from ORION??

https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2023/06/DelphiDocumentsCombined.pdf

Just wondering out loud, If RA spoke to CO DD the next day, how could the tip have been entered into ORION? I don't think the FBI would have had time to set that program up in place by then? If it came from ORION, it couldn't have been lost in a drawer. FBI/LE could have taken all the tips before the ORION program was in place and entered them once it was set up.

That is one of my biggest questions in this case. Personally, I think someone tipped RA in 2022 in and LE went back and looked and found the RA's information. I hope we get a correct and honest answer on this.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

From my understanding, MRC, from Texas, is the big leaker to all of the podcasters and to MW. This is what has been confusing me-why would MRC need to send the alleged photos to MW if MW is the one who stole them from AB’s office? Wouldn’t it be MRC receiving them from MW? I don’t understand. Maybe I’m missing something/confused about who had them first? Why isn’t MRC being prosecuted?

MW stole the photos and docs from AB's office, as he admitted in his statement to LE. He then shared them with MRC. Why would MRC have to send them back to MW?

The man in Texas isn't being prosecuted because he committed suicide the day after investigators questioned him about the incident.

<snipped>
According to court documents obtained by Chicago-based independent TV station WGN, Westerman previously worked in Baldwin’s office and took several photographs of evidence. Westerman allegedly gained access to the files when they were spread out on a conference room table, and no one else was around.

First, Westerman allegedly sent his pictures to a man living in Fishers, Indiana. Then, that man shared them with the true crime podcaster. Eventually, the photos were all over YouTube. The man in Fishers was questioned by police over the leak and killed himself soon after, according to Indianapolis-based Fox affiliate WXIN.

Man charged over evidence leak in Delphi murders case that led to removal of defense attorneys

EBM: R in man in Texas committed suicide shortly after LE met with him, I'm not sure about the order of MRC and others.

 

[TL4S]

MW stole the photos and docs from AB's office, as he admitted in his statement to LE. He then shared them with MRC. Why would MRC have to send them back to MW?

MRC isn't being prosecuted because he committed suicide the day after investigators questioned him about the incident.

<snipped>
According to court documents obtained by Chicago-based independent TV station WGN, Westerman previously worked in Baldwin’s office and took several photographs of evidence. Westerman allegedly gained access to the files when they were spread out on a conference room table, and no one else was around.

First, Westerman allegedly sent his pictures to a man living in Fishers, Indiana. Then, that man shared them with the true crime podcaster. Eventually, the photos were all over YouTube. The man in Fishers was questioned by police over the leak and killed himself soon after, according to Indianapolis-based Fox affiliate WXIN.

Man charged over evidence leak in Delphi murders case that led to removal of defense attorneys

MRC is not the man who committed suicide. That was R. MW sent the photos to R (Fishers, IN), who sent them on to MRC (TX, I think) and potentially others. MRC sent them to MS, and that's when MS went to ISP with it. This is my understanding, per MS's statements about it.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Sorry - having a hard time keeping up. Someone (I think @photographer4 and/or @zh0r4 ) were perhaps attempting to point out something several pages ago that has been niggling at the back of my mind re: the leaked crime scene photos. I don't know who MRC is or if he is a real person - as far as I know he's someone from Texas? But my point is this - do we know for a fact that the crime scene photos leaked by MW to RF included the photos of deceased Abby and Libby? Or was it simply the F on the tree? I have been wondering if someone else (MRC? someone else?) may have inserted actual crime scene photos that they attained some other way aside from MW. Thoughts?

ETA: "some other way" as in along the assumed chain of command. Did MRC or someone else insert the actual depictions of the girls into this chain of command between the law office and "the content creators"? I wonder.

Some SM and Podcasters had pictures of deceased Abby and Libby.

Gray Hughes who is an approved source on WS, said in a linked PC posted here a few months ago, that he had the actual pictures and described how the girls bodies were positioned among other things. The Murder Sheets also said they received them but decided not to talk about them publicly and reported them to LE.

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

MRC is not the man who committed suicide. That was R. MW sent the photos to R (Fishers, IN), who sent them on to MRC (TX, I think) and potentially others. MRC sent them to MS, and that's when MS went to ISP with it. This is my understanding, per MS's statements about it.

Bad information then from the attached MSM link above. I edited my post above to reflect that. Thanks