IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #174

[zh0r4]

MW stole the photos and docs from AB's office, as he admitted in his statement to LE. He then shared them with MRC. Why would MRC have to send them back to MW?

The man in Texas isn't being prosecuted because he committed suicide the day after investigators questioned him about the incident.

<snipped>
According to court documents obtained by Chicago-based independent TV station WGN, Westerman previously worked in Baldwin’s office and took several photographs of evidence. Westerman allegedly gained access to the files when they were spread out on a conference room table, and no one else was around.

First, Westerman allegedly sent his pictures to a man living in Fishers, Indiana. Then, that man shared them with the true crime podcaster. Eventually, the photos were all over YouTube. The man in Fishers was questioned by police over the leak and killed himself soon after, according to Indianapolis-based Fox affiliate WXIN.

Man charged over evidence leak in Delphi murders case that led to removal of defense attorneys

EBM: R in man in Texas committed suicide shortly after LE met with him, I'm not sure about the order of MRC and others.

Thank you, you’re right it started with MW (allegedly).

MW-RF-MRC. MW allegedly sent them to RF (died from suicide, from Indiana), who allegedly sent them to MRC (a man from Texas who allegedly spread them everywhere/to Podcasters). Why doesn’t the MW affidavit say MW sent them to anyone else? He admits that he was in AB’s office and took a picture of the pictures without AB’s knowledge, but he never says he sent them to anyone else. JMO that’s a bit weird, right? Does it only matter he took them from AB’s office but not that he gave them to someone who allegedly gave them to MRC, who spread them everywhere, allegedly?

Why isn’t MRC being prosecuted? Why is MS acting like MRC did nothing wrong? We can’t ask RF anything since he has passed.

Why does MW want a jury trial?? I don’t know any of these answers but I’m curious.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Thank you, you’re right it started with MW (allegedly).

MW-RF-MRC. MW allegedly sent them to RF (died from suicide, from Indiana), who allegedly sent them to MRC (a man from Texas who allegedly spread them everywhere/to Podcasters). Why doesn’t the MW affidavit say MW sent them to anyone else? He admits that he was in AB’s office and took a picture of the pictures without AB’s knowledge, but he never says he sent them to anyone else. JMO that’s a bit weird, right? Does it only matter he took them from AB’s office but not that he gave them to someone who allegedly gave them to MRC, who spread them everywhere, allegedly?

Why isn’t MRC being prosecuted? Why is MS acting like MRC did nothing wrong? We can’t ask RF anything since he has passed.

Why does MW want a jury trial?? I don’t know any of these answers but I’m curious.

I really don't have the answers here, but it's just another example of how much confusion and pain MW taking these photos from AB's 'office' has caused. It's unheard of and some people seem to downplay the repercussions it has caused.

MW not wanting a jury trial is suspicious to me, perhaps he thinks a Judge will go easier on him than a jury of 12 people who would be so disgusted by it all IMO.

That's just my guess as to why he's seeking trial by Judge. I'm curious too.

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

Thank you, you’re right it started with MW (allegedly).

MW-RF-MRC. MW allegedly sent them to RF (died from suicide, from Indiana), who allegedly sent them to MRC (a man from Texas who allegedly spread them everywhere/to Podcasters). Why doesn’t the MW affidavit say MW sent them to anyone else? He admits that he was in AB’s office and took a picture of the pictures without AB’s knowledge, but he never says he sent them to anyone else. JMO that’s a bit weird, right? Does it only matter he took them from AB’s office but not that he gave them to someone who allegedly gave them to MRC, who spread them everywhere, allegedly?

Why isn’t MRC being prosecuted? Why is MS acting like MRC did nothing wrong? We can’t ask RF anything since he has passed.

Why does MW want a jury trial?? I don’t know any of these answers but I’m curious.

Add my question to yours: What happened with that property since he took it on Aug. 1?

This news source is watermarked with WRTV ABC:
In it, the special prosecuting atty stated the following:
[snip]
Between August 1, 2023 and October 5, 2023 in Johnson County, State of Indiana, Mitchel Thomas Westerman did knowingly or intentionally exert unauthorized control over the property of Andrew Baldwin, to-wit: images.

DocumentCloud

www.documentcloud.org

 

[Emma Peel]

Thank you, you’re right it started with MW (allegedly).

MW-RF-MRC. MW allegedly sent them to RF (died from suicide, from Indiana), who allegedly sent them to MRC (a man from Texas who allegedly spread them everywhere/to Podcasters). Why doesn’t the MW affidavit say MW sent them to anyone else? He admits that he was in AB’s office and took a picture of the pictures without AB’s knowledge, but he never says he sent them to anyone else. JMO that’s a bit weird, right? Does it only matter he took them from AB’s office but not that he gave them to someone who allegedly gave them to MRC, who spread them everywhere, allegedly?

Why isn’t MRC being prosecuted? Why is MS acting like MRC did nothing wrong? We can’t ask RF anything since he has passed.

Why does MW want a jury trial?? I don’t know any of these answers but I’m curious.

So many questions.
Questions a level above the 3 leak-a-teers:

Who decided to have LE investigate, what was investigated, was the investigation broad or limited, who decided who would be charged with what and why, and who decided who would not be charged?

my 2nd Postulation (JMO MOO) on why Westerman wants a trial:
Perhaps Westerman (legal experienced) wants a trial b/c the real story is bigger than him and he feels that the trial process is the only way to get the full leak evidence - the full story - on the record?

 

[FrostedGlass]

...
my 2nd Postulation (JMO MOO) on why Westerman wants a trial:
Perhaps Westerman (legal experienced) wants a trial b/c the real story is bigger than him and he feels that the trial process is the only way to get the full leak evidence - the full story - on the record?

RSBM: This!

 

[Cyber sleuth]

So many questions.
Questions a level above the 3 leak-a-teers:

Who decided to have LE investigate, what was investigated, was the investigation broad or limited, who decided who would be charged with what and why, and who decided who would not be charged?

my 2nd Postulation (JMO MOO) on why Westerman wants a trial:
Perhaps Westerman (legal experienced) wants a trial b/c the real story is bigger than him and he feels that the trial process is the only way to get the full leak evidence - the full story - on the record?

I am thinking he may have been permitted access to AB’s work papers and evidence and had been allowed to share with the Fisher, Indiana individual “R” in the past. “R” did not have express permission to circulate and he sent to MRC and potentially others. Which is why the leak came to light.
I think MW is coming into to court stating that he had been consistently allowed to view and share trial evidence and theories with outside collaborators. That it wasn’t a problem until it was a problem so the conversion charge is incorrect.
My perspective is AB shouldn’t have allowed other individuals to access casually. It should have been done under a formal, contract basis. Both MW and R man should have been under some sort of contract to not violate gag order if AB was sharing sensitive or confidential information with them.
If MW had any communication proving that AB had a pattern of inviting him or R into collaboration then all eyes will go back to AB for lack of protecting case evidence and client privilege.
All my kooky opinion.

 

[photographer4]

This is quoting from the Defense Memorandum in support of Franks. I don't buy it, especially considering they didn't talk to the ME who did the autopsies on Abby & Libby.

Agreed, we do have irrefutable video evidence of BG=RA IMO, advancing on them at the time of the murders. Then add in subsequent confessions and I believe the State has the goods on RA for a conviction.

JMO

The state had to believe they had good odds of convicting RA before they even arrested and charged him. I wonder what else (if anything) they may have that we are as yet not privy to?

 

[Emma Peel]

I am thinking he may have been permitted access to AB’s work papers and evidence and had been allowed to share with the Fisher, Indiana individual “R” in the past. “R” did not have express permission to circulate and he sent to MRC and potentially others. Which is why the leak came to light.
I think MW is coming into to court stating that he had been consistently allowed to view and share trial evidence and theories with outside collaborators. That it wasn’t a problem until it was a problem so the conversion charge is incorrect.
My perspective is AB shouldn’t have allowed other individuals to access casually. It should have been done under a formal, contract basis. Both MW and R man should have been under some sort of contract to not violate gag order if AB was sharing sensitive or confidential information with them.
If MW had any communication proving that AB had a pattern of inviting him or R into collaboration then all eyes will go back to AB for lack of protecting case evidence and client privilege.
All my kooky opinion.

RSBBM

MW's affidavit says otherwise.
(where MW swears he had no permission from AB, and that AB had no knowledge what MW was doing w/ crime scene evidence). JMHO.

 

[photographer4]

Thank you, you’re right it started with MW (allegedly).

MW-RF-MRC. MW allegedly sent them to RF (died from suicide, from Indiana), who allegedly sent them to MRC (a man from Texas who allegedly spread them everywhere/to Podcasters). Why doesn’t the MW affidavit say MW sent them to anyone else? He admits that he was in AB’s office and took a picture of the pictures without AB’s knowledge, but he never says he sent them to anyone else. JMO that’s a bit weird, right? Does it only matter he took them from AB’s office but not that he gave them to someone who allegedly gave them to MRC, who spread them everywhere, allegedly?

Why isn’t MRC being prosecuted? Why is MS acting like MRC did nothing wrong? We can’t ask RF anything since he has passed.

Why does MW want a jury trial?? I don’t know any of these answers but I’m curious.

I am very curious to know, back at the beginning, R&B applied for funding for a PI. COuld Westerman have been the guy they hired as a PI (IF the judge allowed this idea, and provided funding)?

Delphi murder suspect files motion to use public funds to hire a private investigator

Attorneys for Richard Allen, the Delphi murders suspect, either has hired a private investigator or will hire one soon.

www.jconline.com

MW was NOT charged with trespass. He wasn't charged with breach of court order (accessing sealed evidence). He wasn't charged for violating the gag order by forwarding the evidence to anyone at all. That is awfully curious, isn't it? Instead, the man was charged with a misdemeanor - theft. If what he did was so serious as to put the case against RA at risk, and was a true violation of a court order, why such an anemic charge? Again I ask, why is he taking it to trial?

 

[somequestions]

Of course the Defense is theorizing crossing the deepest spot with high banks since they act like their client is short with no dexterity and want the picture to be that he would be nearly underwater.

Here’s the monitoring location:
Deer Creek Near Delphi, IN
I’ve never seen any You Tube reenactments of a crossing nor did I refer to any in my post.

There are many drone footages along Deer Creek and the rocky nature of the sand bars is a prominent feature. In some places the sand bars reach almost across the creek and there are many flat limestone boulders to walk on. Their time in water during the crossing may have been minimal where they crossed.

Whilst looking at fish in Deer Creek RA would have noticed the numerous rocky sand bars and the large flat limestone boulders that are typical in Deer Creek.

The monitor that reported on water depth and flow that day only represented that very location. Sand bars, large flat limestone boulders or other debris that could have interrupted water flow or provided shallow step stones or even dry parts adjacent and elsewhere, imo.

Deer Creek varies widely in depth and rate due to the nature of the sediment forming the sandbars, hard pan and geological features, imo.

all imo

The strange part to me is that after crossing the creek I would expect that Richard Allen would be wet and muddy with trying to get up the bank on the other side of the creek. This would help make him stand out more to witnesses.

But what is really strange is that after the crime he went to walk along 300 N back to his car, then once approaching the Hoosier Harvest Store surveillance camera, crossed back into the woods to walk along the trail while at the same time possibly leap frogging Liberty German's father and the flannel shirt guy that had arrived and were walking towards the Monon High Bridge. I do not understand why Richard Allen would go back into the woods to the trail to avoid the surveillance camera anyway unless he thought the camera could pick up his profile image and determine he was muddy and wet?

The theory then is that Richard Allen was trying to avoid being caught by the surveillance camera at the Hoosier Harvest Store. Yet did he really talk to the conservation officer before the images of bridge guy came out from Liberty German's phone? Or was it after? Did he know Liberty German had recorded him with her phone anyway?

If it was after then maybe he was trying to cover himself once he knew there was a picture of him and provide a story. If the answer is before, then like so many things in the Delphi case, that makes no sense. Are there any human witnesses who can state they saw Richard Allen after the crime muddy and wet walking back towards where his car was parked(other than a woman driving by who he could not have been sure would report it)?

<modsnip: no source link>
Maybe it is possible he wanted to commit a crime like this and saw the opportunity there that day?

But based on the evidence released so far(to the public) it does not seem like there is much evidence against him to suggest he is the Delphi killer. Yet he confessed to the crime multiple times after being arrested so it looks like police arrested the right man. It doesn't make any sense.

 

[FromGermany1]

The state had to believe they had good odds of convicting RA before they even arrested and charged him. I wonder what else (if anything) they may have that we are as yet not privy to?

They (DC??) said, they had so much evidence, they only would need just the name - if I remember well. You can hardly believe it, especially since they drove us crazy (and still do) with 2 different BG faces: OBG and YBG. So they need perhaps two names to put the puzzle together, with all their evidence pointing to these two?

 

[Emma Peel]

DMB, error with my source. I'll double back with an edit...if I can fix this source thing. ugh.

 

[girlhasnoname]

The state had to believe they had good odds of convicting RA before they even arrested and charged him. I wonder what else (if anything) they may have that we are as yet not privy to?

A lot, IMO. I believe there may have been photo id's and even in-person lineups done where the witnesses picked RA as the man they saw that day. Of course, we'll never hear anything about this until trial because of the gag order.

That's what I mean about us not knowing anything really about all of the States evidence. Only the salacious Memo in response to the Franks Hearing request.

JMO

 

[FromGermany1]

So many questions.
Questions a level above the 3 leak-a-teers:

Who decided to have LE investigate, what was investigated, was the investigation broad or limited, who decided who would be charged with what and why, and who decided who would not be charged?

my 2nd Postulation (JMO MOO) on why Westerman wants a trial:
Perhaps Westerman (legal experienced) wants a trial b/c the real story is bigger than him and he feels that the trial process is the only way to get the full leak evidence - the full story - on the record?

So you think, at the end he wants to flush out everyone, who is REALLY (also) involved in this case, without doing it himself by naming the people? Something like that? As an unofficially assistant for D? A path sprinkled with breadcrumbs towards the important people (who are protected) besides RA?

 

[girlhasnoname]

I am very curious to know, back at the beginning, R&B applied for funding for a PI. COuld Westerman have been the guy they hired as a PI (IF the judge allowed this idea, and provided funding)?

Delphi murder suspect files motion to use public funds to hire a private investigator

Attorneys for Richard Allen, the Delphi murders suspect, either has hired a private investigator or will hire one soon.

www.jconline.com

MW was NOT charged with trespass. He wasn't charged with breach of court order (accessing sealed evidence). He wasn't charged for violating the gag order by forwarding the evidence to anyone at all. That is awfully curious, isn't it? Instead, the man was charged with a misdemeanor - theft. If what he did was so serious as to put the case against RA at risk, and was a true violation of a court order, why such an anemic charge? Again I ask, why is he taking it to trial?

In AB's response that I've linked more than a few times, he said MW was not working for him at the time (ex employee/friend) and he did not give authority for MW to take and distribute the photos.

 

[sunshineray]

A neutral voice is a good thing!

The fact that DD stood up there in the press conference a week or so after the murders, and the image of BG did not ring a bell, makes me wonder if he was the one who took that tip. It's not signed or dated by anyone.

We know Liggett was provided a tip narrative from ORION DIN-000074-01 to review. It was from Dan Dulin.
Who or what is the ORION reference?

Orion is used by a lot of LE so that reference is most likely to do with the system that information was stored and shared on, my guess.

Law Enforcement | Operational Workforce Management Software

 

[Cyber sleuth]

RSBBM

MW's affidavit says otherwise.
(where MW swears he had no permission from AB, and that AB had no knowledge what MW was doing w/ crime scene evidence). JMHO.

I realize this. I guess I don’t give a lot of benefit to bad faith actors. MW has proven to be a sketchy at best. I think he signed the affidavit with the belief he would be protected to some degree by AB
Once it became obvious that it was every man for himself- he may have decided it is in his best interest to defend himself.
There is evidence that MW was allowed to collaborate with AB and it was a pattern of behavior. So I don’t think it’s outlandish that AB was willingly sharing Delphi case information with MW and possibly R as well.
All of this is wild speculation on my part.

 

[Emma Peel]

So you think, at the end he wants to flush out everyone, who is REALLY (also) involved in this case, without doing it himself by naming the people? Something like that? As an unofficially assistant for D? A path sprinkled with breadcrumbs towards the important people (who are protected) besides RA?

Speculation 1.
I could see MW argue the State has made an error in the charge; he's not committed the specific crime they've cited ... so MW would fight the "erroneous charge" itself.
He'd try to avoid the criminal charge by getting a ruling early on from the Court that the charges don't apply here. (If successful, no trial).

Speculation 2.
If not successful, we might speculate that MW chooses to proceed to trial.
In a Westerman trial ... a fuller leak story would go on the public record, including the investigation of said leak, including a suicide outcome in the middle of that investigation.

Is it worth it to the State to hold a trial on this thing? Who knows.

At any point here, the State can consider offering MW deferred adjudication - which is basically probation (MW had no other arrest record). In short, if MW behaves for x amount of time of probation, the criminal charges go away.

It seems like a reasonable goal, if you're Westerman, a guy with a law degree and every reason to avoid a criminal record.

all JMHO and pure speculation...

 

[mrjitty]

I realize this. I guess I don’t give a lot of benefit to bad faith actors. MW has proven to be a sketchy at best. I think he signed the affidavit with the belief he would be protected to some degree by AB
Once it became obvious that it was every man for himself- he may have decided it is in his best interest to defend himself.
There is evidence that MW was allowed to collaborate with AB and it was a pattern of behavior. So I don’t think it’s outlandish that AB was willingly sharing Delphi case information with MW and possibly R as well.
All of this is wild speculation on my part.

I will say in your favour that the MW affidavit conspicuously fails to address some obvious questions. Especially whether AB knew he was in that room and whether he was allowed access to the materials.

It’s carefully limited to whether AB gave express permission for the photos. DH has implied MW snuck in there. Maybe true. But I note MW never said this.

I guess we will never know how it sits between then unless it does end up going to trial.

 

[zh0r4]

I am very curious to know, back at the beginning, R&B applied for funding for a PI. COuld Westerman have been the guy they hired as a PI (IF the judge allowed this idea, and provided funding)?

Delphi murder suspect files motion to use public funds to hire a private investigator

Attorneys for Richard Allen, the Delphi murders suspect, either has hired a private investigator or will hire one soon.

www.jconline.com

MW was NOT charged with trespass. He wasn't charged with breach of court order (accessing sealed evidence). He wasn't charged for violating the gag order by forwarding the evidence to anyone at all. That is awfully curious, isn't it? Instead, the man was charged with a misdemeanor - theft. If what he did was so serious as to put the case against RA at risk, and was a true violation of a court order, why such an anemic charge? Again I ask, why is he taking it to trial?

My understanding is MW worked with AB from 2015-2017, in AB’s law firm.