Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, and Liberty (Libby) German, 14/The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #85

[Confusion]

Unless they had already encountered him on the trails before and got a bad vibe from him. Jmho

Since we aren't supposed to share personal experiences on here, I'll just say that when a man is following a girl it almost seems like the harder he tries to pretend he isn't, the more obvious it becomes that he is. It's very possible that he had shown some (or even several) tell-tale signs that made her/them nervous. I'd also say from my experiences that sometimes an odd guy can be so obvious that it's almost comical, and it's hard to imagine that they might actually be dangerous rather than just strange. MOO

 

[Trebor5591]

Carrie Timmons, Libby's bio mom, stated in a Facebook post that the police do have DNA.

If the police have DNA, they can submit the DNA to one of the DNA testing sites and after the DNA is analyized, it can be compared to the DNA database to locate the best matches of relatives. This is the technique that was used to catch the Golden State Killer How an Online DNA Service Revealed the Suspected Golden State Killer "The site used to find [the Golden State Killer] is called GEDmatch.com, a free open-source website that allows people to upload their genetic information retrieved from genetic testing companies, mainly to find other relatives or for research." From there it is a manageable task for detectives to locate solid DNA suspects.

 

[cailleach]

Since we know they have BG's DNA, do we know if sketch of him is the result of phenotyping? Of course, done in conjunction with the video and any witnesses?

 

[Charlot123]

Since we know they have BG's DNA, do we know if sketch of him is the result of phenotyping? Of course, done in conjunction with the video and any witnesses?

If it is phenotyping, he might look very different IRL. Or rather, the DNA phenotyping sketch would look like 90% of such genome should look like, but the person’s real looks would fall into the remaining 10%. It has happened before.

 

[cailleach]

If it is phenotyping, he might look very different IRL. Or rather, the DNA phenotyping sketch would look like 90% of such genome should look like, but IRL fall into the remaining 10%. It has happened before.

I do think it looks like what you'd imagine from what we can see in the pics from the video. I'm curious though if it's a combo of information.

 

[mtnlites]

Would someone mind telling me the geography of Michigan, Kentucky and Delphi please. Tia.

That's a really broad question since you are talking about three different states with three totally different landscapes. I live in Kentucky and we have 120 counties. Geographically, our counties differ from one to the other. Even my county's landscape differs from the north and the south: the northern part of my county is very flat, while the southeastern part is very mountainous. Generally speaking, however, Kentucky can be split into three sections: the Appalachian mountains of the East, the foothills and Bluegrass region of the middle, and the plains and farmland of the west. There are a few major "hubs" in Kentucky: Ashland (which borders both West Virginia and Ohio) in the northeast, Lexington (about 1.5 hours south of Cincinnati) in the middle, and Louisville (across the river from Indiana) towards the west. Because Kentucky is so long, it takes approximately 9 hours to drive from the eastern border to the western border.

We have a cabin in Grand Haven, MI which is on Lake Michigan, about halfway up the coast. From where I live in Kentucky, it takes approximately 9 hours to drive there. We have to go through the entire state of Indiana to get there. Indiana, by the way, is mostly flat. Your main hubs are Indianapolis, which is pretty close to the center of the state, and Gary (right across from Illinois, close to Chicago).

There is no direct way to reach central Indiana from most places in Kentucky, the Louisville region excluded. To get there, you either have to take I-75 up to Cincinnati and then take I-70 or I-74 east over to Indianapolis or you have to take I-64 East to Louisiville and then I-65 North upwards.

Kentuckians are fairly territorial. We tend to stick to the places that we can easily reach, just because distance and road infrastructure can be a problem. There are MANY counties in Kentucky that do not have interstate access. For instance, people in southeastern Kentucky find themselves in Tennessee (the Knoxville area) more than in Indiana or Ohio because it's just more direct to go there. On the other hand, Bowling Green folks are only about an hour from Nashville. Those up in the northern part of the state (Covington, Newport, etc.) frequent Cincinnati because it's just across the river, while the Louisville region is sometimes referred to as "Kentuckiana" because of its close proximity to Indiana. You can live in southern Indiana and commute to Louisville, you can live in northern Kentucky and commute to Cincinnati, but you're not going to find eastern Kentuckians making regular trips to Indiana.

Landscape wise, I would say that the three states are nothing alike. There are parts of northern Kentucky that look like southern Ohio, parts of the Louisville region that resemble southern Indiana, parts of northern Indiana that look like southern Michigan, etc. but that's just where the states bleed over into each other. As a whole, they are fairly different.

Delphi is about an hour north of Indianapolis. It's a tiny town. There are people in my county who have never been to Indiana, much less Delphi. I have family in Delphi who have never been to Kentucky.

 

[Seattle1]

It appears to have been cold outside judging by the man’s layers. If his clothes were wet when he was spotted leaving, then it might be that he was freezing & didn’t search for the phone because he needed to change clothes before hypothermia became an issue.
Most people that live in colder climates know that “cotton kills”—because cotton clothes (note his denim jeans) take too much time to dry, risking hypothermia in cold weather. If he lived there a long time, wouldn’t he know that? Even if he hadn’t gone in the Creek, just his sweating alone could have made the cotton problematic. If the guy was an avid walker of trails, and/or had lived a long time in a northern climate,wouldn’t he be in quick drying/wicking clothes for a winter walk?
Anyone else want to weigh in on whether they think it’s strange to take a winter walk in jeans in Indiana? I know in Louisville KY and in north KS, the days around Valentines are usually really cold. [BBM]

I do not find it strange at all to take a casual, short winter walk in jeans, but agree a serious hike calls for a better choice of legwear. Also It should also be noted Feb 13 or the day the girls disappeared was said to be unseasonably warm:

... A year ago this week, on Feb. 14, search parties found Libby and her friend, Abby Williams, two eighth-graders at Delphi Community Middle School, killed near Deer Creek. On Feb. 13, an unseasonably warm Monday, the two friends had used the day off school to hang out on a popular community trail leading to one of Delphi’s iconic spots, the Monon High Bridge. [BBM]
COMMENTARY: One year later, murders of Abby Williams and Libby German still haunt Delphi - Indiana Economic Digest

 

[sleuther0192837465]

Back when I had an FB account, upon hearing about the GSK arrest, I took the chance of looking up a DNA expert & contacted him.

I had read an article about another case that said this expert travels frequently & while at these locations, he reads the newspapers. If he reads info about a cold case, he takes it upon himself to contact LE to guide them through DNA procedures because some of these departments do not realize they can use DNA in different ways to catch these murderers.

I asked him if he knew about Libby & Abby & if so, could he please contact IN LE & talk with them about it.

To my surprise, he responded He asked for BP’s info. He got in touch with her & messaged me afterwards & said he spoke to her at length. He told me to stay tuned

I have felt so heartbroken over these girls & wanted to do something anonymously, to help catch BG.

Now that I have deleted my FB account, I feel confident enough to talk about it & remain anonymous.

I just wanted to tell everyone here, that there are so many people, with expertise, that are helping with the girls’ case, that it gives hope for justice for the girls & their families MOO

 

[MollyDDD]

Unless they had already encountered him on the trails before and got a bad vibe from him. Jmho

That’s what I wonder about too. He may have said something creepy to them prior to them seeing him again coming down the bridge.

 

[JudgeJudi]

I'm cross-posting this from my post on the Mollie Tibbetts thread because this is where it really belongs.

On the old threads there was a lot of discussion that Libby died on 13 February and Abby died on 14 February. That led to a lot of speculation that Libby died at the murder scene but Abby was taken somewhere and her body returned after midnight. However, Find a Grave states that they both died on 13 February.

In any event, I don't believe that ever happened because on the night of the murders people were still scouring the area most of the night. Even with all those people searching, their bodies weren't found until the following day. That would have to be one lucky murderer to successfully return a body when people with searchlights and torches were combing the area.

I've also read in a number of places that Libby sustained much worse injuries which would tend to support the proposition that she may have died first. She was a much bigger girl and played sports for, IIRC, 10 months of the year, so she would have been fit and no doubt strong. It would make sense to murder Libby first and then deal with a much smaller girl. Of course this is all speculation and doesn't change anything.

 

[Ozoner]

Since we know they have BG's DNA, do we know if sketch of him is the result of phenotyping? Of course, done in conjunction with the video and any witnesses?

BBM
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We do NOT know that they have BG's DNA.
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They have only stated that they have DNA. They have not stated that they have the perp's DNA.
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DNA found at the scene could belong to anyone who had contact with the girls, with a random person who threw a cigarette butt on the ground, etc. We do not know any details about the DNA evidence that they have.
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We do not know whether the DNA that they have is mitochondrial or nuclear, and we do not know whether they have a complete profile.

 

[LucyRocket]

Thank you so much Suglo, Alethea, Mtnlites for your responses. So Michigan and Kentucky are neighbouring states, with Indiana also in between? I was wondering if it is feasible that a trucker who travels between Michigan and Kentucky could also reach Delphi and I think by looking at your map Alethea that it's within reason? I happen to think the driver bears a remarkable resemblance.....

 

[Zella]

Thank you so much Suglo, Alethea, Mtnlites for your responses. So Michigan and Kentucky are neighbouring states, with Indiana also in between? I was wondering if it is feasible that a trucker who travels between Michigan and Kentucky could also reach Delphi and I think by looking at your map Alethea that it's within reason? I happen to think the driver bears a remarkable resemblance.....

Michigan and Kentucky do not share a border and are not neighboring states. Indiana is between them.

 

[Zella]

Here's a visual. Michigan is the orange state with Lansing in it. Indiana is below. Then Kentucky is in green.

 

[Ms Aligned]

I would think LE would not share the audio with them. But I do think they know cause of death. Jmo

 

[Charlot123]

Back when I had an FB account, upon hearing about the GSK arrest, I took the chance of looking up a DNA expert & contacted him.

I had read an article about another case that said this expert travels frequently & while at these locations, he reads the newspapers. If he reads info about a cold case, he takes it upon himself to contact LE to guide them through DNA procedures because some of these departments do not realize they can use DNA in different ways to catch these murderers.

I asked him if he knew about Libby & Abby & if so, could he please contact IN LE & talk with them about it.

To my surprise, he responded He asked for BP’s info. He got in touch with her & messaged me afterwards & said he spoke to her at length. He told me to stay tuned

I have felt so heartbroken over these girls & wanted to do something anonymously, to help catch BG.

Now that I have deleted my FB account, I feel confident enough to talk about it & remain anonymous.

I just wanted to tell everyone here, that there are so many people, with expertise, that are helping with the girls’ case, that it gives hope for justice for the girls & their families MOO

Thank you! We know there are many genealogists, who are very experienced, but the work to be done is even more. I don't know DNA community well, but it is wonderful when someone is so proactive. <3

 

[sleuther0192837465]

Thank you! We know there are many genealogists, who are very experienced, but the work to be done is even more. I don't know DNA community well, but it is wonderful when someone is so proactive. <3

Thank you Charlot123 I took a chance & am just so happy to help, in the only small way I could.
I hope that with the all the combined efforts of such amazing people, here (on WS, there are so many amazing, knowlegable members) & in Delphi & everywhere that can help, that Libby & Abby’s case & all the unsolved cases everywhere can be solved

 

[Ozoner]

I've been pondering why LE won't say whether the girls were sexually assaulted. LE always keeps some details secret in order to weed out false confessions, but something that general would normally not be kept secret.
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The most logical explanation I can think of is that maybe one of the girls was sexually assaulted but one of them wasn't. That would be the sort of unique detail known only to the real culprit.
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We know that Libby had a phone with her and that the perp didn't take it. If he didn't take it, maybe that's because he didn't find it. If he didn't find it, maybe that's because he didn't remove Libby's clothing, which would mean that she was not the one who was sexually assaulted.
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My current theory, then, is that Abby was his target and was sexually assaulted, while Libby was collateral damage.
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If that's the case, I would be inclined to take a much closer look at the other cases (mentioned by another poster) where a red-headed victim was raped and murdered, for Abby was a red-head, and red-heads make up only 2—6 % of the US population.

 

[Charlot123]

I've been pondering why LE won't say whether the girls were sexually assaulted. LE always keeps some details secret in order to weed out false confessions, but something that general would normally not be kept secret.
-
The most logical explanation I can think of is that maybe one of the girls was sexually assaulted but one of them wasn't. That would be the sort of unique detail known only to the real culprit.
-
We know that Libby had a phone with her and that the perp didn't take it. If he didn't take it, maybe that's because he didn't find it. If he didn't find it, maybe that's because he didn't remove Libby's clothing, which would mean that she was not the one who was sexually assaulted.
-
My current theory, then, is that Abby was his target and was sexually assaulted, while Libby was collateral damage.
-
If that's the case, I would be inclined to take a much closer look at the other cases (mentioned by another poster) where a red-headed victim was raped and murdered, for Abby was a red-head, and red-heads make up only 2—6 % of the US population.

Or someone who knew Abby?

 

[Ozoner]

Or someone who knew Abby?

It depends on what you mean by "knew."
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I don't think that Abby knew him; neither girl appeared to recognize him as he approached them.
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He could have spotted Abby on those trails or around Delphi on a previous occasion, but the girls' trip to the trail was not planned very far in advance, so it's unlikely that anyone would have known that they were going to be there.
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Odds are that he was just a sexual predator out hunting for a victim who was his type, and Abby fit the bill.
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[Although I suspect that Abby was sexually assaulted, I haven't completely written off anger as a possible motivation for the crime. A person can buy a listening device (Whisper 2000, etc.) that allows him or her to overhear a conversation from many yards away; if BG had something like that, then he might have overheard the girls say that he was creepy, and that might have set him off.]