Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, and Liberty (Libby) German, 14/The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #85

[rainwaterstill]

The good thing if they do have DNA is if this guy is picked up for any felony in many states he will get swabbed and added to CODIS. I wish I remembered the name but I read about a case from the 90s that was recently solved because the detectives ran the DNA every couple of years and finally got a hit. IMO it might be very hard for a predator to go very long without getting nabbed for something.

This link is a little old, from 2013. It does list the states where DNA collection is done upon arrest. Indiana, as we know, now mandates DNA collection upon felony arrest. I am not sure if the other states shown in white ( no DNA collection laws) have now made it mandatory.

http://www.ncsl.org/Documents/cj/ArresteeDNALaws.pdf

It would not surprise me if the was from one of the states where DNA collection is not mandatory. MOO and only MOO, but I believe he has killed before and will kill again.

I would be interested to know if Canada mandates DNA collection upon arrest. Canada is not that far a drive to Indiana, going through Michigan. Can any Canadian WS members supply the answer?

 

[Ozoner]

The good thing if they do have DNA is if this guy is picked up for any felony in many states he will get swabbed and added to CODIS. I wish I remembered the name but I read about a case from the 90s that was recently solved because the detectives ran the DNA every couple of years and finally got a hit. IMO it might be very hard for a predator to go very long without getting nabbed for something.

EBM
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I think it depends upon how reckless that predator is. Now that this guy knows that his picture and voice are out there, he may decide to be extremely careful: he may take precautions not to leave DNA, or he may begin to bury his victims instead of leaving them out in the open; he may even retire.
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Age estimates for BG have varied widely. If he's in his 30s, he may not have many prior murder victims. If he's in his 40s or 50s, he probably does, in which case running DNA tests on evidence from cold cases may eventually produce a match. Linking BG to another case might help LE to zero in on a suspect.

 

[MCDRAW]

EBM

That's probably wishful thinking. You just have to read about serial killers like John Wayne Gacy and Robert Lee Yates to know that these guys are very good actors. There a good chance that nobody who knows him has the first clue.

They may not know or even think he is capable of such acts but if they saw the picture, they know how their loved one walks. If they heard the audio, they would know his voice, how could they not report him? That's assuming they know about this case and have seen the picture and heard the audio. I believe they would know for sure if they heard the audio. JMO

 

[Alethea]

They may not know or even think he is capable of such acts but if they saw the picture, they know how their loved one walks. If they heard the audio, they would know his voice, how could they not report him? That's assuming they know about this case and have seen the picture and heard the audio. I believe they would know for sure if they heard the audio. JMO

I agree with you but I think the people in these situations would want to believe really beyond reason that their loved one wasn't involved. It will take a very brave person to say something. Gary Ridgeway's co-workers at a plant joked that he was the Green River Killer, even calling him GRK to his face, because he looked like the sketch and seemed interested in the case - but no one reported him for it. When agents came to interview him at work his co-workers reportedly even joked then that they probably thought he was GRK too. So I think even people who know something may not report it because they would not want to interfere in someone's life if they were wrong.

 

[Charlot123]

Update to the Ky. trucker caught with the 14 year old.
UPDATE: Robert Phillips' neighbors speak out after arrest

I don't believe it. Picking up a runaway and feeding her marijuana on two occasions is not the same as killing two girls in a haste.

 

[Charlot123]

I agree with you but I think the people in these situations would want to believe really beyond reason that their loved one wasn't involved. It will take a very brave person to say something. Gary Ridgeway's co-workers at a plant joked that he was the Green River Killer, even calling him GRK to his face, because he looked like the sketch and seemed interested in the case - but no one reported him for it. When agents came to interview him at work his co-workers reportedly even joked then that they probably thought he was GRK too. So I think even people who know something may not report it because they would not want to interfere in someone's life if they were wrong.

Gary Ridgeway had IQ in the 90-es. People expect serial killers to be smart, and I think his colleagues were really joking. Plus, at days when the girls disappeared, Gary was at work, so he probably looked clean in co-workers' eyes.

I'd be less inclined to blame the coworkers than the police that had several chances to check his house, and failed to. JMO

 

[Alethea]

Gary Ridgeway had IQ in the 90-es. People expect serial killers to be smart, and I think his colleagues were really joking. Plus, at days when the girls disappeared, Gary was at work, so he probably looked clean in co-workers' eyes.

I'd be less inclined to blame the coworkers than the police that had several chances to check his house, and failed to. JMO

I'm not blaming his coworkers, just showing that even people who notice similarities may discount their own eyes rather than suspect someone they know is actually this boogieman. Despite all the cases that come out where people describe the killer as a "regular guy", I don't think we are really ready to accept the possibility in our own lives.

 

[Charlot123]

I'm not blaming his coworkers, just showing that even people who notice similarities may discount their own eyes rather than suspect someone they know is actually this boogieman. Despite all the cases that come out where people describe the killer as a "regular guy", I don't think we are really ready to accept the possibility in our own lives.

Yes. Agree, especially since the real Gary lived in Kent, not far away from his prey area.

And the irony is - some Gary Ridgeway might truly appear a nice guy to us, because we are not in his target group. He might be into kids, or teenage girls, or women of totally different looks. And to us, he might be the greatest neighbor.

But this guy on the sketch looks very generic. Moreover, when I look at the photo, I think he is a generic redneck, so I am already making an assumption because of his clothes. The reality will be different, I think.

 

[Brubon]

The arrested trucker (REP) from Jackson, Michigan is still in the custody of Laurel County Jail in London, Kentucky after his 10.15.18 arrest where the 14 year old runaway girl was found to be with him.
I wonder if his Jackson, Michigan neighbors have heard the voice of BG and I wonder if they could identify BG's voice as belonging to the trucker. I wish I was near London, Kentucky so I could visit him to hear his voice.

 

[Charlot123]

It depends on what you mean by "knew."
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I don't think that Abby knew him; neither girl appeared to recognize him as he approached them.
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He could have spotted Abby on those trails or around Delphi on a previous occasion, but the girls' trip to the trail was not planned very far in advance, so it's unlikely that anyone would have known that they were going to be there.
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Odds are that he was just a sexual predator out hunting for a victim who was his type, and Abby fit the bill.
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[Although I suspect that Abby was sexually assaulted, I haven't completely written off anger as a possible motivation for the crime. A person can buy a listening device (Whisper 2000, etc.) that allows him or her to overhear a conversation from many yards away; if BG had something like that, then he might have overheard the girls say that he was creepy, and that might have set him off.]

I can't find his description for some reason, but doesn' t he have red-brown hair? Can anyone link the thread?

 

[ellieuma]

I can't find his description for some reason, but doesn' t he have red-brown hair? Can anyone link the thread?

Given that he looks to be around the age where hair grays, it’s possible that he dyes his hair. There really isn’t a way of knowing about it, so I just want to throw it in there to remind everyone that hair color isn’t always dependable for judging likeness.

Question: I read somewhere (can’t recall where) that BG is wearing a hoodie in the bridge photo. But in the police sketch, they have drawn him wearing a hat. When I magnify the photo of BG, I am unable to discern what is going on around the head area. I have wavered over this: is it a hoodie or a hat or just hair?

 

[ellieuma]

EBM
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I think it depends upon how reckless that predator is. Now that this guy knows that his picture and voice are out there, he may decide to be extremely careful: he may take precautions not to leave DNA, or he may begin to bury his victims instead of leaving them out in the open; he may even retire.
-
Age estimates for BG have varied widely. If he's in his 30s, he may not have many prior murder victims. If he's in his 40s or 50s, he probably does, in which case running DNA tests on evidence from cold cases may eventually produce a match. Linking BG to another case might help LE to zero in on a suspect.

I also think he has likely killed, or at least violently raped someone before this. It does seem brazen to execute a crime that risky for the first crime—pull 2 (not just 1) innocent girls off a popular trail, where he killed them while leaving minimal evidence. But, prior to the capture of Molly Tibbett’s killer, I thought whoever took her would turn out to be a repeat offender, which he was not (as far as I know). However, BTK took a long hiatus from killing while he raised a family, and then resumed but he was a lot older (his age being a factor for consideration, which Ozoner pointed out).

How far away from ANY trailheads is the bridge located? I know that the girls were in a popular place, & they were hiking a relatively short distance, which is why their parents allowed them to make the hike alone, but I am curious about the point where they were removed from trail... Meaning, was it the most remote location in this hike? Was it far enough in the woods where if they screamed, their screams wouldn’t be heard by people at any trailhead? If one girl had run away, how much distance stood between them and a trailhead?
The reason I ask, is I am trying to figure out how calculating the guy was when he took them off the trail.

 

[Ozoner]

I can't find his description for some reason, but doesn' t he have red-brown hair? Can anyone link the thread?

The specific description is that he's a white male, 5'6"--5'10", 180--220 lbs., with reddish brown hair. I saw some early descriptions that included an age estimate (which seemed low judging by the images extracted from the video), but I haven't seen any age estimate mentioned in recent articles, so maybe LE has backed away from trying to estimate BG's age.
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He looks to me like he's in his 50s based on the way he's dressed and the way he carries himself, but I admit that there are many variables.

 

[gregjrichards]

Given that he looks to be around the age where hair grays, it’s possible that he dyes his hair. There really isn’t a way of knowing about it, so I just want to throw it in there to remind everyone that hair color isn’t always dependable for judging likeness.

Question: I read somewhere (can’t recall where) that BG is wearing a hoodie in the bridge photo. But in the police sketch, they have drawn him wearing a hat. When I magnify the photo of BG, I am unable to discern what is going on around the head area. I have wavered over this: is it a hoodie or a hat or just hair?

We have had many a lively discussion here over what if anything is on this monster’s head. We all have different opinions on this and nobody can be sure.

I really wonder what the strategy will be for law enforcement in this case going forward. I don’t doubt work is still going on behind the scenes. It will be heartbreaking if we get to a several year anniversary before another appeal for information.

 

[MistyWaters]

Given that he looks to be around the age where hair grays, it’s possible that he dyes his hair. There really isn’t a way of knowing about it, so I just want to throw it in there to remind everyone that hair color isn’t always dependable for judging likeness.

Question: I read somewhere (can’t recall where) that BG is wearing a hoodie in the bridge photo. But in the police sketch, they have drawn him wearing a hat. When I magnify the photo of BG, I am unable to discern what is going on around the head area. I have wavered over this: is it a hoodie or a hat or just hair?

Here’s a link to the FBI poster:

UNKNOWN SUSPECT
“The photo appears to depict a White male wearing blue jeans, a blue coat/jacket, and a hoodie.”

 

[Falling Down]

<snip>

How far away from ANY trailheads is the bridge located? I know that the girls were in a popular place, & they were hiking a relatively short distance, which is why their parents allowed them to make the hike alone, but I am curious about the point where they were removed from trail... Meaning, was it the most remote location in this hike? Was it far enough in the woods where if they screamed, their screams wouldn’t be heard by people at any trailhead? If one girl had run away, how much distance stood between them and a trailhead?
The reason I ask, is I am trying to figure out how calculating the guy was when he took them off the trail.

From the former parking area, to the NW approach to the bridge, is a little over a quarter mile. The trailhead is right by the old parking area, which is mere feet from the road, C.R. 300.

The bridge is 850 feet long.

I whipped up a little map as a handy guide for this post. From where they were abducted, the SE end of the bridge, to the crime scene is barely 550 feet, if that. There's a pin for the end of the bridge, another pin at the top of the image is the general area of the crime scene, and the other two pins are nearby houses.

From the CS to the closest house is barely over 500 feet. From the end of the bridge to a nearby house is only 400 or so feet, if that.

The general area around the bridge, some call it a "gorge" type of land feature, is pretty tight in my mind. Meaning we're not talking about a huge area.

"Calculating" is a good word for what this guy did, there had to be so many things which fell into place, so many variables to be in his favor, for him to pull this off. People were in the area of the bridge before and after the murders, but during a 45-60 minute period of time Abby, Libby, and their killer were the only ones in that little area.

How did this guy know the bridge is there, and what might be his connection to it?

 

[margarita25]

Here's a visual. Michigan is the orange state with Lansing in it. Indiana is below. Then Kentucky is in green.

View attachment 151973

(Odd coincidence, when I clicked on that map my eyes landed right on Eau Claire, WI (Jayme Closs)... I hadn’t even heard of that place until a few days ago.)

Chances are likely small BG had anything to do with the Closs case, but there sure have been some similar vibes. Coincidences I suppose...but who really knows.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

IMO, it could be useful to follow the case "Missing 13yo girl Jayme Closs/Wisconsin" - there is accordance to case Abby/Libby: murder (though 2 adults), violence, precision of an attack and speed in leaving the crime scene, one or more perps, Monday morning, area connected with drugs/meat packing plant/RSOs, billboards for the missing teen over many states, and so on - you will see.
Already thread #10
AMBER ALERT - WI - Jayme Closs, 13, Barron, missing after parents found shot, 15 Oct 2018 *endangered* #10
Post #520 by nobodyuknow22
Excerpt of a privately taken protocol during meeting with the Sheriff:
If you find a scarf, you know that it is not yours don’t touch it- Call it in!
It could have just blown in onto your property but they will send a Team out and let them figure it out!

Even a scarf is mentioned, which we had seen mentioned in case Abby/Libby! All coincidence? Idk.
-.-.-
Maybe, over the next days we will have a pic of BG on bridge, a pic of BG seen by witnesses (Abby/Libby) and 2 cars with description of model/colour (Jayme Closs) - which are belonging together perhaps?? Who knows. It could be possible, IMO.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

(Odd coincidence, when I clicked on that map my eyes landed right on Eau Claire, WI (Jayme Closs)... I hadn’t even heard of that place until a few days ago.)

Chances are likely small BG had anything to do with the Closs case, but there sure have been some similar vibes. Coincidences I suppose...but who really knows.

I'm on your line and I was still writing, when you posted. When I just read about the mentioning of a scarf, I was convinced: can't be all coincidence only.
We will see.

 

[ellieuma]

From the former parking area, to the NW approach to the bridge, is a little over a quarter mile. The trailhead is right by the old parking area, which is mere feet from the road, C.R. 300.

The bridge is 850 feet long.

I whipped up a little map as a handy guide for this post. From where they were abducted, the SE end of the bridge, to the crime scene is barely 550 feet, if that. There's a pin for the end of the bridge, another pin at the top of the image is the general area of the crime scene, and the other two pins are nearby houses.

From the CS to the closest house is barely over 500 feet. From the end of the bridge to a nearby house is only 400 or so feet, if that.

The general area around the bridge, some call it a "gorge" type of land feature, is pretty tight in my mind. Meaning we're not talking about a huge area.

"Calculating" is a good word for what this guy did, there had to be so many things which fell into place, so many variables to be in his favor, for him to pull this off. People were in the area of the bridge before and after the murders, but during a 45-60 minute period of time Abby, Libby, and their killer were the only ones in that little area.

How did this guy know the bridge is there, and what might be his connection to it?

This is really helpful. I am able to read the old news articles with a better understanding of terrain, landmarks & locations. Thank you for putting this graphic together.