Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, and Liberty (Libby) German, 14/The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #88

[carbuff]

I find any theory that involves crossing the river to be considerably less likely. The videos of the search show searchers hip deep in a fairly strong current. It's not the kind of thing you'd just routinely go through. The girls trying to escape would make sense, and maybe BG distancing from the crime, but I really doubt he would have planned to march them through the water. He'd have been soaking wet, and while it was a warm day for February, it's not the kind of weather to stand around in wet clothes while you commit a murder.

 

[ab01]

I find any theory that involves crossing the river to be considerably less likely. The videos of the search show searchers hip deep in a fairly strong current. It's not the kind of thing you'd just routinely go through. The girls trying to escape would make sense, and maybe BG distancing from the crime, but I really doubt he would have planned to march them through the water. He'd have been soaking wet, and while it was a warm day for February, it's not the kind of weather to stand around in wet clothes while you commit a murder.

Yah IDK since very early on I have thought that if they crossed the creek that it wasn't planned out. That after down the hill the girls tried to get away and he chased them across the creek and killed them. I just can't imagine anybody forcing them across that body of water with the conditions on that day...MOO

 

[ab01]

the water was waist deep and freezing IMO.....I just can't imagine that it was part of his original plan ...MOO

 

[watcher9]

Yah IDK since very early on I have thought that if they crossed the creek that it wasn't planned out. That after down the hill the girls tried to get away and he chased them across the creek and killed them. I just can't imagine anybody forcing them across that body of water with the conditions on that day...MOO

Yes, I believe the girls did try to get away.
I can't picture him forcing the girls across the creek when he could have killed them on the same side.
For that matter, why even go "down the hill"? Why not "get off the bridge"?

Doesn't anyone remember the day they found the girls, one of the videos captured LE in the shallow creek looking for something? A few days later, they all rushed back for another search and the water was a lot deeper.

ETA - I found one video (first one I looked at) in the media thread. Start watching about 6 minutes in.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10154523478509092

 

[Dontknow?]

dbm

 

[NickoD]

I have always wondered how the mind of a killer like this works. Do they see a target and think right away I am going to **** and kill her and figure out how they can get away with it? It is hard to believe how “lucky” he has been so far to not have been caught. I hope he jumps every time his door knocks and thinks his time free could be up because one day it will be.

Yes, they are predators in a very real sense of the word. They see others around them as lesser beings and potential victims, gifts for them to satisfy their desire to kill. A psychopath is so disconnected from any morals they literally can’t see why methodically planning the killing of a lone hiker in the woods is such a bad thing, especially when they get such a rush from it. Think of it this way: when you eat a steak do you think of the cow? This is how a criminal psychopath functions and compartmentalizes their crimes.

Assuming the asterisks of your message are to replace the word of a sexual act, I grant you that sexual gratification might not even be a motivator in the slightest. The girls might have reminded him girls that turned him down when he was a teenager. Or it might be as simple as him being angry at the girls being loud and ruining his quiet walk. We often try to determine motive but we base it on rational thinking: what would make me so angry that I would want to take a life? They kill because they can and the trigger is often inconsequential.

I doubt BG is cowering in fear of getting arrested. If anything, getting away with this for 2 years already has confirmed to him what he already knew deep inside: he is smarter than you, me, or the army of detectives looking for him. And he will kill again given the opportunity and the preparation but he is willing to wait for the perfect time (unlike sociopaths who are more impulse driven).

Hopefully his over-confidence will make him slip before any more lives are at risk.

Above is IMO.

Some light reading: How to Tell a Sociopath from a Psychopath

 

[ab01]

Yes, I believe the girls did try to get away.
I can't picture him forcing the girls across the creek when he could have killed them on the same side.
For that matter, why even go "down the hill"? Why not "get off the bridge"?

Doesn't anyone remember the day they found the girls, one of the videos captured LE in the shallow creek looking for something? A few days later, they all rushed back for another search and the water was a lot deeper.

ETA - I found one video (first one I looked at) in the media thread. Start watching about 6 minutes in.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10154523478509092

Even in that video the water is a few feet deep, definitely not ankle deep and surely freezing imo

 

[StarryStarryNight]

If I remember correctly very early on it was actually LE that stated that they crossed the creek. I remember this because initially I sure didn’t think they crossed the creek either. My thought at the time was BG walked them back across the bridge and down the steep terrain on the side of the creek where they were found. I was thinking then there were less trails there and less chance of being spotted. So I was kinda shocked when LE said that and I had to re-think things. I thought perhaps LE could hear them crossing the creek on Libbie’s audio.
There are videos on YouTube showing people crossing the creek easily at a curve in the creek near a sandbar near where the bodies were found. I do agree it is less likely he ordered them across the creek and more likely they ran to try to escape. I believe this is some of the info LE will hold fast until BG is caught.

 

[carbuff]

If I remember correctly very early on it was actually LE that stated that they crossed the creek. I remember this because initially I sure didn’t think they crossed the creek either. My thought at the time was BG walked them back across the bridge and down the steep terrain on the side of the creek where they were found. I was thinking then there were less trails there and less chance of being spotted. So I was kinda shocked when LE said that and I had to re-think things. I thought perhaps LE could hear them crossing the creek on Libbie’s audio.
There are videos on YouTube showing people crossing the creek easily at a curve in the creek near a sandbar near where the bodies were found. I do agree it is less likely he ordered them across the creek and more likely they ran to try to escape. I believe this is some of the info LE will hold fast until BG is caught.

I agree on all counts.

 

[SkipperKey3]

If I remember correctly very early on it was actually LE that stated that they crossed the creek. I remember this because initially I sure didn’t think they crossed the creek either. My thought at the time was BG walked them back across the bridge and down the steep terrain on the side of the creek where they were found. I was thinking then there were less trails there and less chance of being spotted. So I was kinda shocked when LE said that and I had to re-think things. I thought perhaps LE could hear them crossing the creek on Libbie’s audio.
There are videos on YouTube showing people crossing the creek easily at a curve in the creek near a sandbar near where the bodies were found. I do agree it is less likely he ordered them across the creek and more likely they ran to try to escape. I believe this is some of the info LE will hold fast until BG is caught.

The only problem I have with that is that if one is trying to escape, and escape fast, crossing a creek would not be the way to go. That would slow you down considerably. So to me it seems less likely that they crossed the creek in an attempt to escape.
In truth, it is hard to find a theory as to how or why they crossed the creek that actually makes good sense.

 

[dotr]

The only problem I have with that is that if one is trying to escape, and escape fast, crossing a creek would not be the way to go. That would slow you down considerably. So to me it seems less likely that they crossed the creek in an attempt to escape.
In truth, it is hard to find a theory as to how or why they crossed the creek that actually makes good sense.

Not sure if this makes sense or not, but if they were sexually assaulted prior to any creek crossing, might he have forced them to enter the water in an attempt to get rid of any evidence, then killed them afterwards on land?
imo, speculation.

 

[watcher9]

Linking thread #51 which lists links to previous threads #1-50 for research purposes.

Found Deceased - IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #51

 

[carbuff]

The only problem I have with that is that if one is trying to escape, and escape fast, crossing a creek would not be the way to go. That would slow you down considerably. So to me it seems less likely that they crossed the creek in an attempt to escape.
In truth, it is hard to find a theory as to how or why they crossed the creek that actually makes good sense.

It wouldn't be fast but it might have been the only direction they could go, maybe?

 

[travelbug]

Not sure if this makes sense or not, but if they were sexually assaulted prior to any creek crossing, might he have forced them to enter the water in an attempt to get rid of any evidence, then killed them afterwards on land?
imo, speculation.

I have had that same thought, if their was any blood he could also clean himself up. I wonder if he had a stun gun to incapacitate them without making noise.

 

[watcher9]

Even in that video the water is a few feet deep, definitely not ankle deep and surely freezing imo

There were searchers standing on the sandbars, some in ankle deep water with some further down the creek in deeper water. The creek had different depths depending on where they were standing. Where we suspect the girls crossed, there were sandbars almost completely across the creek.

 

[MistyWaters]

Not sure if this makes sense or not, but if they were sexually assaulted prior to any creek crossing, might he have forced them to enter the water in an attempt to get rid of any evidence, then killed them afterwards on land?
imo, speculation.

Both Abby’s mom and Libby’s grandfather said the girls - sorry I don’t remember their exact wording nor have the links at hand - but that neither were the docile or compliant type. While it’s impossible to predict reactions is a threatening type scenario, just the fact that both families have said almost the same thing leads to me believe a sexual assault didn’t occur even if it was the original intention of the perp (at least not while either was able to defend themselves). I’m also assuming the families know more details than the general public and would be unlikely to make those sorts of statements about the strong character of the girls if it wasn’t reflective of the tragic circumstances. But JMO.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Both Abby’s mom and Libby’s grandfather said the girls - sorry I don’t remember their exact wording nor have the links at hand - but that neither were the docile or compliant type. While it’s impossible to predict reactions is a threatening type scenario, just the fact that both families have said almost the same thing leads to me believe a sexual assault didn’t occur even if it was the original intention of the perp (at least not while either was able to defend themselves). I’m also assuming the families know more details than the general public and would be unlikely to make those sorts of statements about the strong character of the girls if it wasn’t reflective of the tragic circumstances. But JMO.

Well stated MistyWaters, especially “sexual assault didn’t occur even if it was the original intention of the perp (at least not while either was able to defend themselves).”

When so many sexual offenders were interviewed soon after the murders, I assumed the girls were assaulted. I never considered that it may have been the intent, but the girls fought it off. (Though there were rumors the girls had fought for their lives, we just don’t know the nature of the attack.)

I haven’t posted on the Libby and Abby thread for years. Thank you for helping me look at this in a different way.

As always, I hope someday soon it will be “Today Is the Day” BG is found.

 

[Jabarn]

The only problem I have with that is that if one is trying to escape, and escape fast, crossing a creek would not be the way to go. That would slow you down considerably. So to me it seems less likely that they crossed the creek in an attempt to escape.
In truth, it is hard to find a theory as to how or why they crossed the creek that actually makes good sense.

I agree. The creek would be cold and everyone would be soaking wet after crossing it.

It is hard for me to imagine BG is a criminal mastermind. I think he has gotten very lucky.

I am not sure what makes more sense for the crossing of Deer Creek from the abduction spot, but here are some possibilities (prob some others I haven’t thought about):

1) One of the girls ran across the creek (and what followed would have to be the killer forced or carried the other across the creek).

2) Both girls ran, and BG followed them, likely enraged.

3) BG committed the murders under the bridge and carried both bodies across the creek to hide them.

4) BG led the girls across the creek to a place he had familiarity prior.

Some of the scenarios may lay on top of each other, but none of it matters until a POI is identified though.

 

[SouthernMom]

You know, I have gone round and round about how BG first saw them, how he decided to execute his plan, and how he was able to get away even the excellent evidence from the video and voice capture Libby took.

One thing I am noticing is memory fades, and even here, we need reminders of what happened when, thinking particularly about the pics, which did seem to suggest the shape of a gun in BG’s big blue jacket.

I check in here from time to time, just to see, and because those two girls mean so much to their families- they each were middles schoolers with so much potential.

One thing I locked in on is this quote from an article posted (from post #327 from @SouthernMom).

Rumors and Speculation Around the Delphi Murder Case
Of course, the lack of confirmed details about the circumstances of the girls’ murders has only fueled more obsessive speculation from crime-watchers on sites like Reddit, where users on at least one Delphi-dedicated board with 8,400 subscribers regularly share their theories, speculations and suspicions.

“There’s a lot of false information out there,” Holeman confirms. “Social media, although not new… does impede our investigation. Like when people put up side-by-side photos of innocent people—or, at least, people with no ties to the state of Indiana or Delphi—which creates false [information]. People believe it [though] because it’s on the internet.”

And armchair detectives are even taking their interest in the case a step further by creating YouTube reenactments of the crime.

“[The videos] help us know that people don’t know [the true details], because the facts haven’t been released,” Holeman says. “People watch the news and think they are picking up on things, but it’s false. Nothing out there is accurate, which only leads to more false tips.”

Why Police Have Not Released Details on the Murders of Libby German and Abby Williams from Delphi, Indiana

The part I locked in on was where Holeman says “Nothing our there is accurate”.
I also remember one of the investigators saying early on that the rest of the girls iPhone evidence was “the stuff of nightmares.” I’m rethinking my theory.

Praying for this monster to soon be found and brought to justice.

 

[book-thinker]

With the Monon high bridge deteriorating, BG quickly crossed over a structural damaged bridge, most people would cross at a snail pace, afraid that any moment of stepping on a loose or missing railroad ties and falling down 63 ft.
How can someone cross over that bridge as quickly as BG unless he was familiar with the bridge. He visited often
with no fear of falling.

This reminds me of someone recently learning to ski and was shown a black diamond ski slope,
you would have a the fear of falling and breaking your neck.
Then you get better at skiing and have confidence in your skill, no problem in doing the run.

I had the fear when learning to ski, finally after much practice skied down a black diamond slope.