Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #106

[Boxer]

You may be very right, but one thing may be different: I think, they (LE) meant, he got around very quickly even without using the car and that is the whole dilemma. Where was the BG when and how did he get there and how did he manage to get his car at the end? In addition: when was he wearing what clothing? Did he change the clothing one time or two times or even three times and where did he change it? Where did he hide the clothing before changing and after changing? Where did he get rid of his murder tools?
"He got around quickly" - he was zig-zagging through the area like a bunny, using the car and on foot and it seemed, he was at the same time at more than one place. Like that perhaps.

MOO Terrain is rough, only paths make sense. South side of creek has informal trails.

 

[Charlot123]

I agree, it seems unlikely he could have gained control without a visible weapon. I think it shows that at least upon setting foot on the trail, he had bad intentions. Prior to then, IDK.

But yes, crossing the creek is perplexing. That's the one and only piece of evidence (that we are given) which supports the idea of an attempted abduction, IMO. That's not a theory I've put much credence into, but the creek crossing does make me wonder.

Otherwise, as other posters have said, maybe the other side of the creek offered more privacy, or was less visible from the bridge? It's a quandary.

Maybe changed his plans in the middle of abduction?

 

[Ozoner]

I still believe one of the girls was communicating online with someone and was going to meet up with him that day. Snapchat deletes all posts within seconds , which is perfect for youth making sure their parents don’t track their online conversations . This also makes finding who posted messages difficult for LE. There is no tracking possible. I think it is likely there were two perpetrators. Just doesn’t seem likely to me that one person could do this crime without help...considering the girls’ ages and that it wasn’t guaranteed there wouldn’t be other hikers....after all, it was an unusually warm day. I also think the new sketch....that they had already right at the beginning of the investigation....may have depicted a person who was a minor at the time and therefore they couldn’t post it publicly as a POI....due to laws protecting minors. Now he is no longer a minor and that may be why LE say they are confident someone will now call in who hasn’t already . I think the photo is of the older person that also partook in the crime. The girls took his photo because they were expecting a teenager to meet them and they got creeped out. I also think the “hey guys” in the audio may be the young guy... and the “ down the hill “ is the old guy seen in the photo. I also hear water flowing in the new audio....not that it’s any big secret they were near running water below the bridge.

BBM
I haven't seen any evidence to support that theory. Moreover, we know that LE has additional, unreleased audio of the girls, and there is no indication from LE that the additional audio includes any references to the girls' planning to meet anyone.

I don't think one person would have difficulty controlling two young teenage girls, especially if he had a weapon, which I believe he did.
I think he said the word guys to get their attention before telling them what to do, whether he knew them or not. I don't think the girls recognized him since they did not seem to indicate that when they mentioned him.

I do think the crime could have been sexually motivated although that doesn't necessarily mean there was actual SA.

Either way I think the motive was just the thrill of killing them.
He has no respect for human life and I doubt he has any remorse at all.

I look forward to the day of his arrest. Imo

I agree. A gun could have been used to control both girls. Even without a gun, BG could have controlled one of them with physical force and controlled the second one by threatening to harm the first one. That wouldn't work with two victims who were strangers to one another, but it would work quite well with two close friends.

 

[TL4S]

Maybe changed his plans in the middle of abduction?

I guess I'm not sold on the idea of an attempted abduction, but in my mind, it's a possibility. So yes, if that was the case, maybe something went down and it ended in murder. IDK

 

[kkdj]

I just simply think he knew he had total control over them (probably with a weapon or had already harmed one of them) and smugly said, "guys....down the hill".
They knew they were in trouble for sure at that point. Probably before imo.

 

[kkdj]

We don't know where they were when he instructed them down the hill do we?
I'm sure LE knows approximately tho because they have the timeline from Libby's phone.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

As LE did not state the reason they were looking for the driver of the car, we can’t assume it to have been the murderer. I think that’s an unlikely scenario given Carter asked the driver to please contact the officers at the Delphi command post.

I'm missing it, that Carter asked the driver for contact. I thought, a witness, who had seen the driver, was searched by LE.

 

[Charlot123]

There are also rest stops on I-65 that would be easily accessible upon leaving Delphi to dump evidence, clothes, etc.
Again, “local” is open to interpretation here because there are several larger cities in this area that are not a far drive. We have Lafayette and Indianapolis or head north towards Chicago.
Although as I’ve said before, I do believe that he was familiar with the bridge area, at least in some capacity; From childhood or from traveling through the area and stopping by to stretch his legs.

I was thinking today, how close do I need to be to provide for a tight alibi?

To leave my car at the parking lot and leave through the back door and use another car (or maybe the guy was driving a motorcycle? even a bike would do) is not a problem.

But the traffic in our area is horrible, so I could not drive 15 miles without being hopelessly stuck for 30 minutes. So for myself, I gave "no more than 5 miles from my work".

However, rural Indiana is not that congested. 10 miles could be easy. I think he might have used a motorcycle and parked the car at the front of (whatever building was supposed to provide the alibi). Or vise versa.

And, I think he is somewhat known to the people of Delphi. One thing I know, if a total stranger appears in a small rural area, he would draw attention. So he has to have been there and is not totally unknown to people, either lives there, or visits someone, anyhow, it is not an unknown face.

I even wonder if the assumed mistake that the police had made was too predictable, too common. Maybe they believed a too-believable alibi and checked it ("did you see such-and-such at work on February 13th? Oh, he was at work... Fine, thank you"). And perhaps they even saw the video showing the person entering the building at 8 AM and leaving it at 5 pm... from the front camera. And maybe there was a camera in the back of the building, and no one checked it, as the situation looked totally believable. And now the recording is long gone.

Or, the person says, "I was in the library, writing a paper", and they check the computer, and there is evidence of the paper being written, but the person changed the clock? I am thinking it could have been something like "playing game with my friends on my computer” (because to me he looks like he likes gaming), and it looks ok, but later they realized that he reset the clock? Or it was set for a different time zone? Something like it. Just an idea. MOO.

(When I post on some forums, the time always comes wrong, and I wonder if it could make or break my potential alibi. Probably the FBI would know, but the local police may not immediately think of it if their suspicion index re. me is low to start with).

 

[acutename]

We don't know where they were when he instructed them down the hill do we?
I'm sure LE knows approximately tho because they have the timeline from Libby's phone.

is it assumed that he did not actually fire a gun during this crime because some one would have heard it?

 

[JnRyan]

Well.. in my opinion, he HAD TO HAVE some kind of weapon to control/kill 2 girls. I still think given the place he ended up leaving them, that this assault had to be very well planned out.

What I scratch my head about: A creek crossing doesn't make sense to me at all. Unless they were killed on the south side of the creek and then dragged one by one across to the other side. That doesn't sound very likely either.

So, I agree he had a plan.. may have been seen there multiple other days when someone alone (or two young people) were not around to trap. The situation had to be right. A week day. Nobody within sight on the north or south end of the bridge.

So much does not make any sense. Once the guy gets caught, I hope there is a full confession so they can not put the family thru a trial). Maybe then, we will get details.

I'm baffled by the creek crossing as well. I tend to believe where Abigail and Liberty were found was the crime scene. Why carry them across the creek and risk getting forensic evidence on the girls? Did he plan to cross the creek to further avoid being seen from the bridge should someone else walk out on the bridge? Or he could walk past the cemetery to W300 N and from there to his vehicle to avoid being seen on the trail? Then again, maybe things didn't happen according to plan and the girls ran for it crossing the creek? He caught up with them on the other side. That would be a mistake for him since I can't imagine that many persons being on the creek bank there let alone crossing the creek. In that instance he likely left shoe prints in the mud crossing the creek and LE at least has an idea of his shoe size and if the shoes had significant usage maybe how he walks. The wear pattern could be matched to the wear pattern of his current shoes.

 

[Peppery]

I still believe one of the girls was communicating online with someone and was going to meet up with him that day. Snapchat deletes all posts within seconds , which is perfect for youth making sure their parents don’t track their online conversations . This also makes finding who posted messages difficult for LE. There is no tracking possible. I think it is likely there were two perpetrators. Just doesn’t seem likely to me that one person could do this crime without help...considering the girls’ ages and that it wasn’t guaranteed there wouldn’t be other hikers....after all, it was an unusually warm day. I also think the new sketch....that they had already right at the beginning of the investigation....may have depicted a person who was a minor at the time and therefore they couldn’t post it publicly as a POI....due to laws protecting minors. Now he is no longer a minor and that may be why LE say they are confident someone will now call in who hasn’t already . I think the photo is of the older person that also partook in the crime. The girls took his photo because they were expecting a teenager to meet them and they got creeped out. I also think the “hey guys” in the audio may be the young guy... and the “ down the hill “ is the old guy seen in the photo. I also hear water flowing in the new audio....not that it’s any big secret they were near running water below the bridge.

Re: the PC asking if anyone had seen the car to phone in....makes sense to me. I am very aware of “odd” or out of the ordinary occurrences in my community and transit routes. It is possible someone saw that car parked and thought it out of place but didn’t think yet to contact LE.

Finally, I suspect LE are trying to get one of the perps to turn in the other....one of the goals of the PC. I think they have a lot of dots that just don’t connect yet with rock solid evidence. All my own speculation of course. Sorry for the long post, but I have been waiting to read everything here first.

Even if Snapchat or another “disappearing” app was used to communicate, I can’t imaging a 13/14 year old not telling anyone else, not screenshoting any communication, there being no evidence of an online conversation. I have a 14 year old daughter with the biggest iPhone possible and because she screenshots ev.ery.thing, she’s run out of room multiple times. They screenshot messages with boys, send it to friends and dissect every letter. They may keep secrets from their parents, but their friends would know. Moo

 

[acutename]

I was thinking today, how close do I need to be to provide for a tight alibi?

To leave my car at the parking lot and leave through the back door and use another car (or maybe the guy was driving a motorcycle? even a bike would do) is not a problem.

But the traffic in our area is horrible, so I could not drive 15 miles without being hopelessly stuck for 30 minutes. So for myself, I gave "no more than 5 miles from my work".

However, rural Indiana is not that congested. 10 miles could be easy. I think he might have used a motorcycle and parked the car at the front of (whatever building was supposed to provide the alibi). Or vise versa.

And, I think he is somewhat known to the people of Delphi. One thing I know, if a total stranger appears in a small rural area, he would draw attention. So he has to have been there and is not totally unknown to people, either lives there, or visits someone, anyhow, it is not an unknown face.

I even wonder if the assumed mistake that the police had made was too predictable, too common. Maybe they believed a too-believable alibi and checked it ("did you see such-and-such at work on February 13th? Oh, he was at work... Fine, thank you"). And perhaps they even saw the video showing the person entering the building at 8 AM and leaving it at 5 pm... from the front camera. And maybe there was a camera in the back of the building, and no one checked it, as the situation looked totally believable. And now the recording is long gone.

Or, the person says, "I was in the library, writing a paper", and they check the computer, and there is evidence of the paper being written, but the person changed the clock? I am thinking it could have been something like "playing game with my friends on my computer” (because to me he looks like he likes gaming), and it looks ok, but later they realized that he reset the clock? Or it was set for a different time zone? Something like it. Just an idea. MOO.

(When I post on some forums, the time always comes wrong, and I wonder if it could make or break my potential alibi. Probably the FBI would know, but the local police may not immediately think of it if their suspicion index re. me is low to start with).

I think that one of the "problems" thinking about this case is that if you assume this is a local, A or L should possibly have recognized him and they did not.

 

[MuddyTires]

What you just said, reminds me of a story in my (long) life. Don't know, why exactly. In any case, it's not your fault !
When I was relative young (but already married with children), I worshiped an actor a little bit, whom I knew as an actor on TV. One day, I was invited to attend a theater performance in a city 60km away (1h driving time). On stage - I didn't know at all, that would happen - I heard a voice, which I knew from somewhere (like the Sheriff in case Abby/Libby re the audio). After some time (in the dark of the auditorium) I found the name of the "voice" within the playbill: excitingly, the voice belonged to my worshiped actor!
When back at home, within the next days I wrote a nice letter to him/the "voice", because I now finally had an address (address of theater in the city) and I confessed my admiration to him.
Some time later, it was a Saturday at noon, my doorbell was ringing and my husband went opening the door. I just had hair curlers all over the head and looked stupid and ugly. In this condition, I heard "the voice" at my door and looked down the stairs, overwhelmed and also ashamed by this visitor.
Short end of story: my husband invited him to come in and the worshiped actor, I only knew from TV and one single theater performance, sat on our couch for coffee and conversation. As he told, he had gotten my letter of admiration via his theater address and thought, when he had time, he would like to drive to my town exploring, which woman had such an admiration for him.
With distance to this event, I later thought, it was certainly an advantage to have a husband at home and to have an ugly look at the first glance (hair curlers on head). Who knows, what the actor's interest had been originally.

So........ it was The Hoff right?

 

[JnRyan]

is it assumed that he did not actually fire a gun during this crime because some one would have heard it?

I don't know if we can assume. In the country like that a small caliber gun such as a .22 or a .25 would not have drawn that much attention. Even a larger caliber would not draw that much attention as folks would assume someone was shooting a varmint.

That also may be the reason he walked the girls away from the trails - assuming being across the creek was planned. A gunshot away from the trails may be assumed to be from one of the nearby farms. My problem with that is, if RL was at home he would have heard and possibly knew it was on his property. Did the killer scout out the property ahead of time and knew there were no cars at the homes near the cemetery? He either scouted this out in advance or he got VERY lucky.

 

[NameUser]

Since it seems the recording was made from a little ways down the bridge, I wonder what the first thing that was said to the girls.

Maybe BG identifies what weapon he has so LE does not want to release that info.

If they had a scheduled meet up, I am sure one of the two parties would have identified themselves or indicated they were supposed to be meeting up at the least.

MOO stuffs

 

[kkdj]

is it assumed that he did not actually fire a gun during this crime because some one would have heard it?

I've never heard that he fired a gun.

 

[Peppery]

is it assumed that he did not actually fire a gun during this crime because some one would have heard it?

I think all we can assume is that no one has publicly said they heard a gunshot. Which I know means nothing.

 

[da fino]

I’d considered the possibility that maybe he saw them dropped off, ...

yes, i agree, he saw them dropped off, or somehow otherwise knew they were alone. they are not of driving age and he would have likely needed to know they were unescorted and not with another adult nearby and out of sight.

 

[MistyWaters]

I don't know if we can assume. In the country like that a small caliber gun such as a .22 or a .25 would not have drawn that much attention. Even a larger caliber would not draw that much attention as folks would assume someone was shooting a varmint.

That also may be the reason he walked the girls away from the trails - assuming being across the creek was planned. A gunshot away from the trails may be assumed to be from one of the nearby farms. My problem with that is, if RL was at home he would have heard and possibly knew it was on his property. Did the killer scout out the property ahead of time and knew there were no cars at the homes near the cemetery? He either scouted this out in advance or he got VERY lucky.

I agree there’s no reason to assume anything given lack of factual information. What we do best is toss around theories!

RLs property consists of 40 acres and looking at google map, the house appears to be the furthest distance possible on the opposite corner of his land. Accordingly to his interview, the land slopes steeply downward as well, possibly why it’s not all cultivated. However the home at the end of the private drive was very close to the crime scene, as well as a couple others although we don’t know if they were occupied at the time of the murders.

This is my very rough and amateurish attempt to highlight a google map of the area, the SE portion of the bridge (yellow), the road (green) the appx location where the bodies were found (red), along with white circles indicating other residences. RLs is likely the furthest, up top. Google maps can also be deceptive in proximity as the landscape is definitely not flat.

 

[MistyWaters]

I'm missing it, that Carter asked the driver for contact. I thought, a witness, who had seen the driver, was searched by LE.

It’s worth watching the first 2 minutes of the PC when the driver of the vehicle was mentioned, because I think opinions of reporters have been interjected into some of the media reports. Carter never said the driver of the vehicle was the suspect. At that point of the PC, he hadn’t even mentioned the suspect. After acknowledging the people of Delphi he talks about the vehicle parked between noon and 5pm (Feb 14th, later amended) and asks is “if you were parked there or knows who was parked there please contact the officers at the command post at the Delphi City Building”.