Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #106

[Backabeyond]

I hadn't listened to the extended audio until now. The voice sounds middle-aged or younger, and the way he speaks to them casually, "Guys..." is how a parent might speak to friends of their own kids. Or even how a coach might speak. He had an "I got you" condescension to his tone. That's all I have. IMO MOO

There is a new show on ID called “Still a Mystery”. Last night I saw an episode about this case. I know LE hasn’t released this, but Libby’s mom(I think) said LE had revealed a little more of the audio to them privately. She said it was along the lines of Libby saying the trail ends here, we can’t go any further. Which would seem to lead seamlessly into him trying to figure out what to do next and responding with “...guys, get down the hill”. Of course this is my opinion, but this leads me to believe that this was opportunistic and the guy had no plan. Though, I didn’t think the trail ended at the end of the bridge, so I’m not sure at what point she would’ve said that.

 

[Mind your biscuits]

“We have a witness,” Carter went on. “You made mistakes. We are coming for you and there’s no place for a heartless coward like you to hide.”

Other than Libby's phone being a "witness," where exactly do you think the witness saw the killer? (I dislike the use of "BG" because that makes him sound less lethal than he was.)

What mistakes do you think the killer made? I don't think being recorded was a mistake in terms of him doing something wrong. If he didn't know he was being recorded, it wasn't a mistake on his part, IMO. Not taking Libby's phone could have been a mistake but only if he knew she had one. Was leaving DNA one of the mistakes? Probably, but it's not unusual to find a killer's DNA at a crime scene. Can you think of any other kinds of mistakes the KILLER made?

I think choosing two victims was a mistake. Something

“We have a witness,” Carter went on. “You made mistakes. We are coming for you and there’s no place for a heartless coward like you to hide.”

Other than Libby's phone being a "witness," where exactly do you think the witness saw the killer? (I dislike the use of "BG" because that makes him sound less lethal than he was.)

What mistakes do you think the killer made? I don't think being recorded was a mistake in terms of him doing something wrong. If he didn't know he was being recorded, it wasn't a mistake on his part, IMO. Not taking Libby's phone could have been a mistake but only if he knew she had one. Was leaving DNA one of the mistakes? Probably, but it's not unusual to find a killer's DNA at a crime scene. Can you think of any other kinds of mistakes the KILLER made?

I think choosing two victims was a mistake. Something could, and probably did, go wrong with his plan. Imo
Phone glitch above sorry.

 

[MistyWaters]

“We have a witness,” Carter went on. “You made mistakes. We are coming for you and there’s no place for a heartless coward like you to hide.”

Other than Libby's phone being a "witness," where exactly do you think the witness saw the killer? (I dislike the use of "BG" because that makes him sound less lethal than he was.)

What mistakes do you think the killer made? I don't think being recorded was a mistake in terms of him doing something wrong. If he didn't know he was being recorded, it wasn't a mistake on his part, IMO. Not taking Libby's phone could have been a mistake but only if he knew she had one. Was leaving DNA one of the mistakes? Probably, but it's not unusual to find a killer's DNA at a crime scene. Can you think of any other kinds of mistakes the KILLER made?

It sounded to me as if Carter was referring to the same witness who assisted with the newly released sketch who saw something they felt needed to be reported to LE. “We have a witness”.

That criminals make mistakes, somehow connecting themselves to the crime scene is the reason they are eventually captured. So I definitely think Carter is referring to Libby’s cellphone, the mistake was the perp wasn’t aware he was being recorded. But I suppose at this point we can only guess because no one mistake has led to a conviction.

 

[Backabeyond]

I think choosing two victims was a mistake. Something

I think choosing two victims was a mistake. Something could, and probably did, go wrong with his plan. Imo
Phone glitch above sorry.

Perhaps he realized this mistake after a sex assault and decided murder was his only option.

 

[Gumbeaux]

Do any of you think that having the video of the BG is possibly making this harder to solve in some way? The video image is so poor that you cannot tell what the person looks like, so your brain fills in the missing details with inaccurate details (most likely). I think most people have an image of an older man with a hat on similar to the guy in the first sketch they released. People are trying to recall someone they know that wears a blue jacket like the BG. There is a good chance that the jacket is something that he rarely (if ever) wore before so it wouldn't be familiar to his friends/family. Residents of Delphi have racked their brains looking for someone that day that was wearing that outfit. After the crime was committed, the man probably disposed of the blue jacket and hoodie. If the suspect is actually much younger (as sketch 2 suggests) then he could have walked around town in jeans and a t-shirt after the crime and nobody would have suspected a thing because he looked nothing like the man in the video. Someone probably saw something suspicious that day in Delphi but since it didn't match the image in the video, they discounted it.

Also the BG's gait in the video is probably quite different than it would be while walking down the street since he is crossing an old railroad bridge that requires him to sidestep holes and watch his footing carefully. His everyday "street gait" would be very different and wouldn't trigger people to think he's the man in the video.

Having a photograph or video of a perpetrator is invaluable if it provides hair color, weight, eye color, straight/crooked teeth, nose shape, etc. Unfortunately, the image of BG from the video doesn't provide any of that information. I think the only thing that most people can agree on is that he is wearing jeans and a blue coat/jacket.

BBM

I agree entirely, so sharing my thoughts from a couple of months ago -

Two years into this horror, I have to wonder if he’s not been found because of the image — and now video. Naturally we would assume that of course it is easy to identify the perpetrator since we have this grainy image illustrating generalities. But stop to think how often we misjudge a person based on clothing or their general presentation of themselves. And of course I am thinking of those pleasant surprises in life, when a bit downtrodden looking soul is found to be well traveled, well read, or just an interesting, insightful soul we are glad we encountered.

By seeing these images, we immediately assign attributes that may be entirely off base. Our perceptions are skewed, and imagination limited. These are my coffee thoughts this morning, and thank you for all of yours.

Edit: typo, doh!

 

[Backabeyond]

It sounded to me as if Carter was referring to the same witness who assisted with the newly released sketch who saw something they felt needed to be reported to LE. “We have a witness”.

That criminals make mistakes, somehow connecting themselves to the crime scene is the reason they are eventually captured. So I definitely think Carter is referring to Libby’s cellphone, the mistake was the perp wasn’t aware he was being recorded. But I suppose at this point we can only guess because no one mistake has led to a conviction.

MOO is This seems like an opportunistic kill with no plan, which is the best way for someone to make multiple Mistakes. I mean, he failed to see or take her phone. Which would seem pretty sloppy. I’m thinking all this happened in a kind of frenzy, where his mind was racing and his emotions were high and not some cool and calculated approach.

 

[Charlot123]

Great thoughts! 6 months into following this case I thought possible a softball coach maybe the girls possibly had at some point? Praying an hoping justice comes soon for those poor sweet angels in Heaven.

With the Internet, it could be anyone behind the pretty avatar. This is what is scary.

 

[MistyWaters]

There is a new show on ID called “Still a Mystery”. Last night I saw an episode about this case. I know LE hasn’t released this, but Libby’s mom(I think) said LE had revealed a little more of the audio to them privately. She said it was along the lines of Libby saying the trail ends here, we can’t go any further. Which would seem to lead seamlessly into him trying to figure out what to do next and responding with “...guys, get down the hill”. Of course this is my opinion, but this leads me to believe that this was opportunistic and the guy had no plan. Though, I didn’t think the trail ended at the end of the bridge, so I’m not sure at what point she would’ve said that.

Just my thoughts......unless LE allowed the family to hear even more video, the audio segment they heard appears to have occurred prior to the approach of the killer. At the time when the girls were chatting with each other but the killer did not have control over them.

If it’s true Libby mentioned something about a path that ended her comment could’ve been made as the girls were initially heading toward the bridge or where they walked after the 2:07 SC and prior to the 2:30 video.

I don’t think BP would disclose conversation occurring between Libby and the murderer, even if she was aware of it. She seems very careful and cautious in what she discloses. That sort of information I’d think would be held back to protect the integrity of the investigation.

“State police say more audio from Libby German's cell phone was played for the victims' families, including a mention of a man they noticed behind them.

Police say the girls mostly talk about "stuff girls talk about" in the recording, but they also mention the man. The only audio that has been released to the public from the phone is that of a man's voice ordering German and her friend, Abby Williams, "down the hill."..”
Police: Delphi murder victims spoke of man behind them in audio played for family

 

[oksooner]

I think the whole 'car to get around quickly' statement is letting the suspect know that his alibi is not airtight

 

[Mind your biscuits]

Perhaps he realized this mistake after a sex assault and decided murder was his only option.

Imo he came prepared to murder.

 

[Backabeyond]

Just my thoughts......unless LE allowed the family to hear even more video, the audio segment they heard appears to have occurred prior to the approach of the killer. At the time when the girls were chatting with each other but the killer did not have control over them.

If it’s true Libby mentioned something about a path that ended her comment could’ve been made as the girls were initially heading toward the bridge or where they walked after the 2:07 SC and prior to the 2:30 video.

I don’t think BP would disclose conversation occurring between Libby and the murderer, even if she was aware of it. She seems very careful and cautious in what she discloses. That sort of information I’d think would be held back to protect the integrity of the investigation.

“State police say more audio from Libby German's cell phone was played for the victims' families, including a mention of a man they noticed behind them.

Police say the girls mostly talk about "stuff girls talk about" in the recording, but they also mention the man. The only audio that has been released to the public from the phone is that of a man's voice ordering German and her friend, Abby Williams, "down the hill."..”
Police: Delphi murder victims spoke of man behind them in audio played for family

You’re probably right.

 

[Justice101]

Imo he came prepared to murder.

Well.. in my opinion, he HAD TO HAVE some kind of weapon to control/kill 2 girls. I still think given the place he ended up leaving them, that this assault had to be very well planned out.

What I scratch my head about: A creek crossing doesn't make sense to me at all. Unless they were killed on the south side of the creek and then dragged one by one across to the other side. That doesn't sound very likely either.

So, I agree he had a plan.. may have been seen there multiple other days when someone alone (or two young people) were not around to trap. The situation had to be right. A week day. Nobody within sight on the north or south end of the bridge.

So much does not make any sense. Once the guy gets caught, I hope there is a full confession so they can not put the family thru a trial). Maybe then, we will get details.

 

[Backabeyond]

Imo he came prepared to murder.

I mean it’s as valid as any other possibility, but it just seems to be more of a random encounter. Though even believing that i have to admit that he could’ve been hunting and finally got lucky in just a rural area. But if it’s a normal hunting ground, then he’s been seen there before.

 

[TL4S]

Understand both points are valid. However, knowing how much LE are keeping back, I don't think they would tell us. They know but the specifics eg. was the driver BG, was the passenger BG, were the occupants alibis of someone, were they witnesses? - will not be released IMO. (integrity of the investigation)

I suppose it's also possible someone gave a tip about a vehicle parked in that spot, but LE doesn't know if it's linked to BG or not. So they ask the driver to come forward? IDK. But with no mention of the vehicle since the PC, I can't help but think it was not directly involved in the crime.

 

[Backabeyond]

Well.. in my opinion, he HAD TO HAVE some kind of weapon to control/kill 2 girls. I still think given the place he ended up leaving them, that this assault had to be very well planned out.

What I scratch my head about: A creek crossing doesn't make sense to me at all. Unless they were killed on the south side of the creek and then dragged one by one across to the other side. That doesn't sound very likely either.

So, I agree he had a plan.. may have been seen there multiple other days when someone alone (or two young people) were not around to trap. The situation had to be right. A week day. Nobody within sight on the north or south end of the bridge.

So much does not make any sense. Once the guy gets caught, I hope there is a full confession so they can not put the family thru a trial). Maybe then, we will get details.

Why would they need to be killed on the south side? He had control of them and could make them cross the creek.

 

[Charlot123]

BBM

I agree entirely, so sharing my thoughts from a couple of months ago -

Two years into this horror, I have to wonder if he’s not been found because of the image — and now video. Naturally we would assume that of course it is easy to identify the perpetrator since we have this grainy image illustrating generalities. But stop to think how often we misjudge a person based on clothing or their general presentation of themselves. And of course I am thinking of those pleasant surprises in life, when a bit downtrodden looking soul is found to be well traveled, well read, or just an interesting, insightful soul we are glad we encountered.

By seeing these images, we immediately assign attributes that may be entirely off base. Our perceptions are skewed, and imagination limited. These are my coffee thoughts this morning
, and thank you for all of yours.

Edit: typo, doh!

I think he has not been found because he has a very tight alibi. I can imagine someone looking at the video and saying. “You once had such a coat, remember?”, and the person would laugh and say, “luckily you all saw me that day (in the library? In the workshop? With my GF? Whatever), otherwise I would be in a tight bind now”. And the people would laugh, too.

I think he came, stayed for a while looking for the victim, killed them fast, and drove back to (wherever). “He was moving around quickly” to maintain his alibi, the mistake being that someone saw him not in the library, but in the yard, re-entering it, for example.

“He has to be local” only means that he could not drive far. I am thinking of leaving his car at the entrance of the place he was supposed to be in, so that people saw it, and taking another car, his GF’s one, for example. Which he would park at the back entrance and use.

He had to get rid of the clothes somewhere along the way, or left them somewhere and returned to pick up and wash. By the time the video emerged. they were long gone. I honestly think they were donated.

So whoever might recognize him (“sounds like my boyfriend’s voice”), immediately in her mind gives him alibi (“oh, but that day he had food poisoning/hangover/court date), not realizing that it was not as bad as she thinks. It is really about the visible tightness of the alibi and one breach that the person has not realized yet (or maybe did, and the LE just need someone to support it).

 

[TL4S]

Well.. in my opinion, he HAD TO HAVE some kind of weapon to control/kill 2 girls. I still think given the place he ended up leaving them, that this assault had to be very well planned out.

What I scratch my head about: A creek crossing doesn't make sense to me at all. Unless they were killed on the south side of the creek and then dragged one by one across to the other side. That doesn't sound very likely either.

So, I agree he had a plan.. may have been seen there multiple other days when someone alone (or two young people) were not around to trap. The situation had to be right. A week day. Nobody within sight on the north or south end of the bridge.

So much does not make any sense. Once the guy gets caught, I hope there is a full confession so they can not put the family thru a trial). Maybe then, we will get details.

I agree, it seems unlikely he could have gained control without a visible weapon. I think it shows that at least upon setting foot on the trail, he had bad intentions. Prior to then, IDK.

But yes, crossing the creek is perplexing. That's the one and only piece of evidence (that we are given) which supports the idea of an attempted abduction, IMO. That's not a theory I've put much credence into, but the creek crossing does make me wonder.

Otherwise, as other posters have said, maybe the other side of the creek offered more privacy, or was less visible from the bridge? It's a quandary.

 

[tresir2012]

What you just said, reminds me of a story in my (long) life. Don't know, why exactly. In any case, it's not your fault !
When I was relative young (but already married with children), I worshiped an actor a little bit, whom I knew as an actor on TV. One day, I was invited to attend a theater performance in a city 60km away (1h driving time). On stage - I didn't know at all, that would happen - I heard a voice, which I knew from somewhere (like the Sheriff in case Abby/Libby re the audio). After some time (in the dark of the auditorium) I found the name of the "voice" within the playbill: excitingly, the voice belonged to my worshiped actor!
When back at home, within the next days I wrote a nice letter to him/the "voice", because I now finally had an address (address of theater in the city) and I confessed my admiration to him.
Some time later, it was a Saturday at noon, my doorbell was ringing and my husband went opening the door. I just had hair curlers all over the head and looked stupid and ugly. In this condition, I heard "the voice" at my door and looked down the stairs, overwhelmed and also ashamed by this visitor.
Short end of story: my husband invited him to come in and the worshiped actor, I only knew from TV and one single theater performance, sat on our couch for coffee and conversation. As he told, he had gotten my letter of admiration via his theater address and thought, when he had time, he would like to drive to my town exploring, which woman had such an admiration for him.
With distance to this event, I later thought, it was certainly an advantage to have a husband at home and to have an ugly look at the first glance (hair curlers on head). Who knows, what the actor's interest had been originally.
Transferred to the sad story of sweet Abby/Libby:
Maybe, they had had contact to someone, they admired. The contact wouldn't have been per letter of course, but per Internet somehow. What, if this object of admiration (BG) had evil things in his mind (maybe, because it was a 13th of month or day before Valentin) and had ordered the girls to meet him, then surprised the girls with his appearance in an (ugly?) "disguise".
Perhaps that day he had a business meeting at a nearby town/plant/company; he had spare time between two appointments; he has a preference for remote areas and has excessive geographic knowledge; he has a preference for not age-appropriate adventures.
So, BG appeared on the bridge and when he came near to the girls, he said "Guys ....", because he knew, they were expecting him (with a different look) and he is verrry used to have people expecting him to appear.
WHY murder - I don't know and I will not understand forever.
All IMO MOO and thoughts.

Great story and a real possibility I think.

 

[SeattleStew]

1:35 approx Abby and Libby dropped off at trail head across from M residence.

2:07 SC Photo

mention of a man they noticed behind them

the trail ends here, we can’t go any further.

2:30 BG Video

Guys...Down the hill

3:15 DG Arrives

Do I have this in the right order? Who wants to chime in?

 

[gipsypup]

I still have trouble believing that only one person like BG could control two young girls in an open area like that .
Maybe the girls followed him because they knew him or were supposed to meet someone else there?He could have said he would bring them to meet so and so “ down the hill .”
The “guys” saying to me conveys familiarity between them.
IMO he could have walked them to the crime scene area where other accomplice(s) were waiting ?
If it was murder and no SA then there had to be another motive ? Just another unknown.. ugh.