Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #108

[Pipsissiway_Potts]

I could post this anywhere on WS, but I watched a most interesting discussion on YouTube.

Peter Hyatt is a statement analyst, and wow! He really reveals how unintentionally revealing anyone’s statement can be. Some examples would be instinctive for sleuthers to cue in on, but his expertise is quite illuminating.

Search statement analyst Peter Hyatt on YouTube, there are multiple videos.

Gumbeaux, I just wanted to give a big THANK YOU for pointing out Peter Hyatt to us here on the forum. Never heard of him until yesterday. After listening yesterday evening to a fascinating three part interview of him, and his analysis of the Madelaine McCann case, I was completely blown away by how good he is at his job. I would be very interested in Peter Hyatt's analysis of "Guys...down the hill", and whatever else the perp said.

I am assuming there is more said that is being withheld from the public, but that's an opinion. I don't know if there was anything in MSM in that regard.

 

[Jax49]

This isn't mentioned.



AW says "Libby says something like, 'Well, the path ends here so we can’t go any farther'. You’re just kind of going by you have no idea what their, what their actual feelings are because you can’t really hear anything or see anything”.



The first 21 minutes of Still a Mystery, Down the Hill on the ID channel covers Abby and Libby with the remainder focusing on another case.

It includes an image of what is supposedly one of Libby’s shoes although I’ve never seen an image of her shoe anywhere else. Neither have I read in MSM that Libby was wearing black Nikes.

For those who have been unable to view this video …

bbm

In my opinion the shoe was a "stock picture", not her real shoe. Same with the phone they showed. They insinuated those two items were related to the crime, but never actually made that claim. moo

 

[tresir2012]

Yes, but I wouldn’t think they got down to underware level of detail?

Amateur opinion and speculation

I had in mind the original reporter's quote not the scanner (which we cannot discuss)

I could see girls clothing in Deer Creek east of the bridge and knew full well that the girls where found very nearby

Abby had a pink top and Libby had a tie died fringed top, which is what was described on the LE poster IIRC. Those colours would show up IMO especially in Feb without much greenery or flowers around.

ETA If I could find the LE poster mentioning the clothes and shoes, I would post it but I haven't found it yet, still looking.

 

[TL4S]

BBM

I agree with you in leaning towards this being BG's first time, and think you made a good point about not knowing his initial motive. This may have been a botched rape or abduction. However I think we need to be cautious in assuming he is not a serial killer simply because there are no other local similar crimes to connect to. Consider the case of John Gardner as an example. He admitted to murdering Amber Dubois and Chelsea King in California. His crimes were committed in different (but geographically close) towns. Amber, a younger teenager, was abducted in the early morning hours in a residental neighbourhood on her way to school. Chelsea, an older teenager, was attacked in the early evening hours while jogging on a nature trail in a park. A vehicle was used in Amber's abduction but not with Chelsea. Both girls were raped, but Amber was stabbed and Chelsea was strangled. Amber's body was left quite a distance from the place of her abduction while Chelsea was left in the same park.
These crimes are so different in MO that one might not initially link them to the same suspect.

Point to take away is that not all serial killers have a 'signature' or follow the same pattern with every murder. If BG is younger (18-25) I would guess that this was his first time killing. If he is older (25-40) I might lean towards him having killed before...maybe just with two victims at the same time, and maybe in a different way or different place. For all we know BG may have only recently moved to the Delphi/surrounding area in the past 5 years. He could have killed in a different state or country.

All very good points!

 

[cody22]

I've always thought he could see at that distance because he was using a camera. Also, female undergarments (bras specifically) would be recognizable. jhmo

Plus, we have verification in the scanner thread as to what LE collected from the creek (can't be discussed here).

ETA Link: https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...s-scanner-thread.333467/page-10#post-13299892

Bump.....This link here will give you info about some of the items found in the water on the 14th. We are not allowed to discuss scanner thread info here on the main thread.....moo

 

[JnRyan]

Yes, I believe it is highly probable that he has killed before. His ability to control two girls, murder them and escape speaks to experience; an escalation of his acts. The risk likely is part of the thrill for him.

The profile LE has given us lines up with the profile of an SK as well with regard to race, age range, and familiarity with the kill zone.

I have no doubt in his mind we will discover he is responsible for other murders with a similar signature, but this is...

Amateur opinion and speculation

I'm about 50-50 as to whether he has killed before or this is his first. What I would just about bet on is that he has committed some sex related crimes in the past - e.g., peeping tom, assault or child molestation - and just hasn't been caught. Therefore he is not a registered sex offender.

LE has stated that they have looked for other crimes elsewhere. I suspect they haven't found any since it hasn't been mentioned. In fact, 1st Sgt Holeman, alluded to that in an interview stating there is no reason to believe that if he committed a murder that he committed it the same way as this one.

To that I would add the fact that the FBI's National Crime Information Center (NCIC) is notoriously incomplete because the entry of crimes in the database is almost entirely voluntary on the part of local, state and tribal LE entities. On top of that, if this there is a girl missing somewhere else, there is almost no way to know if and how she was murdered. The CODIS database might help with identifying a DNA match, but with the vast volumes of untested rape kits sitting in evidence rooms all across the nation this guy could have started out with some sexual assaults but his DNA lies in an untested rape kit. You can't enter DNA in CODIS if you don't have a DNA profile.

This guy likely killed, molested or raped before, but there just isn't anything on record to match it to.

 

[Cutiekitty]

I'm about 50-50 as to whether he has killed before or this is his first. What I would just about bet on is that he has committed some sex related crimes in the past - e.g., peeping tom, assault or child molestation - and just hasn't been caught. Therefore he is not a registered sex offender.

LE has stated that they have looked for other crimes elsewhere. I suspect they haven't found any since it hasn't been mentioned. In fact, 1st Sgt Holeman, alluded to that in an interview stating there is no reason to believe that if he committed a murder that he committed it the same way as this one.

To that I would add the fact that the FBI's National Crime Information Center (NCIC) is notoriously incomplete because the entry of crimes in the database is almost entirely voluntary on the part of local, state and tribal LE entities. On top of that, if this there is a girl missing somewhere else, there is almost no way to know if and how she was murdered. The CODIS database might help with identifying a DNA match, but with the vast volumes of untested rape kits sitting in evidence rooms all across the nation this guy could have started out with some sexual assaults but his DNA lies in an untested rape kit. You can't enter DNA in CODIS if you don't have a DNA profile.

This guy likely killed, molested or raped before, but there just isn't anything on record to match it to.

It’s my understanding that NCIC is a national criminal history database. When someone gets arrested the information is transmitted into it from state level crime information centers or directly into NCIC. Missing persons can be entered into NCIC and LE can always follow up with the local agency working the case for additional info.

UCR info is voluntary.

You can’t always enter DNA into CODIS - sometimes you don’t have enough markers, but you can still have DNA. If there aren’t enough markers for CODIS it can be used for exclusionary purposes.

 

[mtnlites]

A lot of stuff doesnt add up to me and it might never. I battle back and forth about what actually motivated this guy to murder. I also battle to come to grips with the fact some predator was just waiting for a girl or two or woman to arrive at a public place like that especially that time of year.

It leaves to me the thought he had to have some knowledge they would be there. Either knew them or knew of them.

Or knew that there was a chance that some woman would be there either alone or with another female friend. Not long after this happened some friends/family and I sat around talking about the number of times that one of us (young women) have been there-or any other nature preserve/park-alone. I can't count the number of times I've visited the park either alone or with my dog. It's a nice place for a walk. On a sunny day there was going to be a good chance that he'd encounter a young woman there. I also wonder, though, if he saw Abby and Libby leaving the vehicle and entering the trail. That perhaps he'd been parked there for some reason and the idea of attacking them was spurred by actually seeing them.

 

[mtnlites]

bbm

In my opinion the shoe was a "stock picture", not her real shoe. Same with the phone they showed. They insinuated those two items were related to the crime, but never actually made that claim. moo

The same image is posted on some of the stock photo sites I use so this appears to be the case.

 

[JnRyan]

It’s my understanding that NCIC is a national criminal history database. When someone gets arrested the information is transmitted into it from state level crime information centers or directly into NCIC. Missing persons can be entered into NCIC and LE can always follow up with the local agency working the case for additional info.

UCR info is voluntary.

You can’t always enter DNA into CODIS - sometimes you don’t have enough markers, but you can still have DNA. If there aren’t enough markers for CODIS it can be used for exclusionary purposes.

NCIC is a national criminal database. But its history is replete with entire police departments refusing to use it. One case that was on here that comes to mind is the murder of Allison Feldman in Scottsdale AZ. Scottsdale PD stated they were making inquiries in NCIC looking for similar crimes. The irony is that the year before the murder, Scottsdale PD was quoted in a national news story stating they did not enter data into the NCIC because it was too time consuming. That is an entire city.

NCIC was almost done away with in the 1970's and early 1980's and not by outside sources, but rather the FBI's reluctance to continue funding it. In the 1990's Canadian LE reps came down to look at the system and liked it. 5-10 years later Canada had about half as many cases in their database as we had in NCIC. This with Canada having about 1/10 the population of the USA and only having the system up and running for about 1/4 the time NCIC was running. The difference. Canada made entry by providence and city LE mandatory.

Missing persons data in NCIC is also not mandatory or at least it wasn't when I researched this about 4-5 years ago. Their data fields don't allow for enough pertinent data and some of it is incomplete or inaccurate. Not all medical examiners and coroners have access to NCIC. Another national database is NamUs - National Missing Persons and Unidentified Persons System. There are more data fields in NamUs. Why enter data in both systems? Some LE agencies do not, preferring to use NamUs. NamUs can also be accessed by the public. The two systems are prohibited by law from interfacing.
How to Tackle the Nation’s Missing Persons Challenge | The Crime Report

 

[JnRyan]

More info from a Government Accounting Office report from 3 years ago on NCIC and NamUs on missing persons.
https://www.gao.gov/assets/680/677717.pdf

 

[Cutiekitty]

NCIC is a national criminal database. But its history is replete with entire police departments refusing to use it. One case that was on here that comes to mind is the murder of Allison Feldman in Scottsdale AZ. Scottsdale PD stated they were making inquiries in NCIC looking for similar crimes. The irony is that the year before the murder, Scottsdale PD was quoted in a national news story stating they did not enter data into the NCIC because it was too time consuming. That is an entire city.

NCIC was almost done away with in the 1970's and early 1980's and not by outside sources, but rather the FBI's reluctance to continue funding it. In the 1990's Canadian LE reps came down to look at the system and liked it. 5-10 years later Canada had about half as many cases in their database as we had in NCIC. This with Canada having about 1/10 the population of the USA and only having the system up and running for about 1/4 the time NCIC was running. The difference. Canada made entry by providence and city LE mandatory.

Missing persons data in NCIC is also not mandatory or at least it wasn't when I researched this about 4-5 years ago. Their data fields don't allow for enough pertinent data and some of it is incomplete or inaccurate. Not all medical examiners and coroners have access to NCIC. Another national database is NamUs - National Missing Persons and Unidentified Persons System. There are more data fields in NamUs. Why enter data in both systems? Some LE agencies do not, preferring to use NamUs. NamUs can also be accessed by the public. The two systems are prohibited by law from interfacing.
How to Tackle the Nation’s Missing Persons Challenge | The Crime Report

Are you saying they refused to upload all info to include criminal history information or just missing person info? If it’s all info, that is messed up. Is there a state level system AZ uses and maybe they were putting the info there?

 

[on the case]

Hi everyone! This is my third post and I really don't want to offend anyone. I have my own theories. The thing is for one to be true the other can't be. So basically each theory is a different suspect. No two overlap, although the motives may. Please remember these are my own opinions only. I don't remember anyone else posting anything like what I'm about to say. So I don't even have them prioritized as to which one seems more likely. That said one of many theories I have is that the murderer lived close enough by that no vehicle was needed. That is why the victims were left where they were in moo. This particular suspect was after one girl only and had to attack when she was with someone else in order for it not to appear obvious who he is. Because he wanted the one girl and accomplished what he wanted which was not kidnapping in moo that is why there have been no more attacks. I believe the murderer knew it had to end in murder and therefore wore layers of clothing much larger than needed in order to peel off any evidence left after the murders and discard that clothing. I also believe that only one girl knew him and wasn't sure what she was seeing because of him wearing someone else's too big clothing. Even when he spoke the voice was familiar but it wasn't until he was extremely close that she knew who he was and complied because she knew who he was. Like she knew he had authority over her because of who he is and just followed his commands but very confused not expecting anything bad to happen other than maybe getting in trouble for being on the bridge. His DNA would not be questioned unless there was some left by way of sexual assault.

 

[on the case]

Another theory also my own opinion only follows along like the one I just posted but this time the target was the other girl and the murderer did have a vehicle. His DNA also would not be of concern unless he sexually assaulted her and left DNA that way. This suspect has very skinny legs and looks a lot like the photo taken by the girls. The face is blurry but he's got what I consider a baby face slightly chubby cheeks. Also in the picture I see very thin legs wearing oversized pants. He was angry and wanted the girl silenced or possibly both of them. Either way in order to silence one both had to be killed so as not to bring the attention onto who the murderer is. I think he killed out of fear of being found out and used the convenience of the girls being together in a public place as his opportunity. Again he accomplished what he set out to do so there will be no more victims. Like my previous suspect in my previous post he was able to get home and later join the search for the girls.

 

[on the case]

Yet another theory this suspect is also known to at least one of the girls and possibly both. He has a very distinctive chin and is the youngest of my suspects. This person may kill again because his motive was not the same as my first 2 suspects. Again DNA could be easily explained away unless there was a sexual assault leaving DNA behind. Moo

 

[JnRyan]

Are you saying they refused to upload all info to include criminal history information or just missing person info? If it’s all info, that is messed up. Is there a state level system AZ uses and maybe they were putting the info there?

When the NCIC first came into being there were something like 150 questions that to be addressed for each crime. Agencies balked at this stating they didn't have that kind of manpower to put an division of personnel to work entering data. Since then, in response to LE concerns, this has gradually been reduced over the years. The last I heard this number was something like 20-25 questions. But, yes, Scottsdale stated they didn't have the manpower.

As to enters into NCIC (for most criminal files), 1.4, #1 of the NCIC Operating Manual:
"Most records are placed directly into the NCIC 2000 System by an originating agency (agency holding warrant, missing person report, or theft report; registration information on convicted sexual offender, convicted person on supervised release, etc.), through a control terminal tied into the network."
(Other files such as those persons making threats to the President are controlled and entered by the Secret Service, immigration cases by INS and foreign cases by either RCMP (Canada) or INTERPOL reps in the USA.)

1.7, #2 of the NCIC Operating Manual states:
"Although the use of NCIC is voluntary, delayed entry of records in NCIC reduces or eliminates the possibility of apprehending wanted persons, locating missing persons, and recovering stolen property."
So even the operation manual acknowledges that the use is voluntary.

With regard to responsibility for the data security entered the manual stated this in 1.6, #3:
"The FBI uses hardware and software controls to help ensure System security. However, final responsibility for the maintenance of the security and confidentiality of criminal justice information rests with the individual agencies participating in the NCIC 2000 System."

As far as non-Federal LE agencies interfacing with NCIC, I have no idea to what extent they are compatible. Some entities have dropped their systems and use the NCIC exclusively. But generally speaking state agencies enter data for cases where they have jurisdiction only.

 

[JnRyan]

More info. This report states that only 15% of unidentified remains are entered in NCIC. Why? LE agencies state they don't have the time or resources to enter the data. It also goes on to state that many LE agencies are not familiar with NCIC and the other FBI databases such as ViCAP (Violent Criminal Apprehension Program, which BTW does NOT interface with NCIC in spite of the fact that the FBI runs both).
Missing Persons and Unidentified Remains: The Nation’s Silent Mass Disaster

 

[Cutiekitty]

When the NCIC first came into being there were something like 150 questions that to be addressed for each crime. Agencies balked at this stating they didn't have that kind of manpower to put an division of personnel to work entering data. Since then, in response to LE concerns, this has gradually been reduced over the years. The last I heard this number was something like 20-25 questions. But, yes, Scottsdale stated they didn't have the manpower.

As to enters into NCIC (for most criminal files), 1.4, #1 of the NCIC Operating Manual:
"Most records are placed directly into the NCIC 2000 System by an originating agency (agency holding warrant, missing person report, or theft report; registration information on convicted sexual offender, convicted person on supervised release, etc.), through a control terminal tied into the network."
(Other files such as those persons making threats to the President are controlled and entered by the Secret Service, immigration cases by INS and foreign cases by either RCMP (Canada) or INTERPOL reps in the USA.)

1.7, #2 of the NCIC Operating Manual states:
"Although the use of NCIC is voluntary, delayed entry of records in NCIC reduces or eliminates the possibility of apprehending wanted persons, locating missing persons, and recovering stolen property."
So even the operation manual acknowledges that the use is voluntary.

With regard to responsibility for the data security entered the manual stated this in 1.6, #3:
"The FBI uses hardware and software controls to help ensure System security. However, final responsibility for the maintenance of the security and confidentiality of criminal justice information rests with the individual agencies participating in the NCIC 2000 System."

As far as non-Federal LE agencies interfacing with NCIC, I have no idea to what extent they are compatible. Some entities have dropped their systems and use the NCIC exclusively. But generally speaking state agencies enter data for cases where they have jurisdiction only.

I’m talking about criminal history information - Scottsdale PD wasn’t sharing that with NCIC/nationally?

 

[scruffydog]

I lean towards this being his first time, but I'm admittedly not well-versed in serial killers. I guess I lean that way because they think he's local, yet no other local crimes prior to these murders stand out as a connection, and because the girls were found so soon after they were murdered, and the risks involved in committing the crime in a relatively public place, and within a fairly short time frame.

It's not my solid stance. It's fluid. In part because I don't know if murder was even the initial motive, or an outcome of something going wrong.[/QUOTE

Yes, I believe it is highly probable that he has killed before. His ability to control two girls, murder them and escape speaks to experience; an escalation of his acts. The risk likely is part of the thrill for him.

The profile LE has given us lines up with the profile of an SK as well with regard to race, age range, and familiarity with the kill zone.

I have no doubt in his mind we will discover he is responsible for other murders with a similar signature, but this is...

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Falling Down]

I'm about 50-50 as to whether he has killed before or this is his first. What I would just about bet on is that he has committed some sex related crimes in the past - e.g., peeping tom, assault or child molestation - and just hasn't been caught. Therefore he is not a registered sex offender.

LE has stated that they have looked for other crimes elsewhere. I suspect they haven't found any since it hasn't been mentioned. In fact, 1st Sgt Holeman, alluded to that in an interview stating there is no reason to believe that if he committed a murder that he committed it the same way as this one.

To that I would add the fact that the FBI's National Crime Information Center (NCIC) is notoriously incomplete because the entry of crimes in the database is almost entirely voluntary on the part of local, state and tribal LE entities. On top of that, if this there is a girl missing somewhere else, there is almost no way to know if and how she was murdered. The CODIS database might help with identifying a DNA match, but with the vast volumes of untested rape kits sitting in evidence rooms all across the nation this guy could have started out with some sexual assaults but his DNA lies in an untested rape kit. You can't enter DNA in CODIS if you don't have a DNA profile.

This guy likely killed, molested or raped before, but there just isn't anything on record to match it to.

I became obsessed with this case early on, and started researching random attacks, abductions, murders, etc., of juveniles in rural areas across the U.S. I could probably count on one, or maybe two, hand(s) the number of those cases which involve two juveniles, out walking about on their own, in the last 40 years. It just doesn't happen with any regularity, and the cases are difficult to find, with the exception of A&L. I'd even leave the Iowa case out of my list, for the simple fact it happened in a city park.

The list of knowns and variables which worked in BG's favor on Feb. 13th, 2017, is a fairly long one, although a lot of it for him was pure dumb luck.

My hikes take me to out-of-the way places similar to where A&L were killed. The worst I've ever witnessed were maybe some young people horsing around or what have you. Nobody hikes with me, so I'm alone, but try to be aware of my surroundings.

The Delphi case is a special one to me, an outlier, though, due to the circumstances. A true crime case which has had me wondering if BG somehow knew the bridge area fairly intimately before that terrible day.

JMO

-FD