Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #108

[yelodoggie]

Minutes could be as long as 59 minutes after the recording so sexual assault could have been possible IMO.

IMO, 'minutes' implies less than a half hour. If TOD was determined to be longer than that, I think they'd have said "less than an hour" or "within an hour". To me, 'minutes' implies pretty quickly.

 

[Spy Versus Spy]

Good spot there. That would mean it was over by 3pm and would explain DG not getting an answer when he called just after 3. We often theorized but that does now seem to confirm it doesn't it? Hope LE are closing in so the families can grieve properly.

Is the timespan too short for it to mean the whole trip there? Maybe from drop off?

 

[Blueberry2720]

Okay, tried the multi-quote thing... but probably still haven't gotten it. (Pleeez don't give up on me it took 3 years to learn how to copy and paste!) @BNA had me in a quandary with reference to PEDS, (little socks, pediatric medicine, or another Social Media trap designed to "pass classroom notes" without parents or teachers being aware?) Performance Enhancing Drugs...I got it!! And yes I agree, anabolic steroids abuse among young men... we call it "ROID RAGE" here. I have seen contrite, fun and normal size young men turn into "short-fused, confrontational, angry, muscle bound galoots." I am aware it has great uses in medicine when administered by a doctor for a specific problem. But unregulated....it can turn abusers into monsters.
"Aggression is the No. 1 reported symptom among anabolic steroid users. In animal studies, anabolic steroids dramatically increase aggression in doses and combinations that mimic street use."
So, if perp is a "user" of PEDs....then yeppers, he is on the younger side of 35. Hmmm wonder if the DNA /blood samples also tested positive for steroids?? IE....could look younger?

***Dang, it didn't work...ugh I can't do it!...I give up and no more tutorials, it is hopeless.

To do this, go to a post and choose "+quote" instead of "reply". Then go to the next post you want and do the same. When you are ready to write, at the bottom of the blank text box, choose "insert quotes". Boom.

 

[HockeyMom330]

Is the timespan too short for it to mean the whole trip there? Maybe from drop off?

IMO probably too short. The girls were dropped off around 1:35pm and the photo of Abby on the bridge is at 2:07pm, which is approximately 35 mintues. It is assumed during this timeframe that the girls were fine. The billboard used to show BG as being last seen at 2:30pm and the girls were not responding to messages at 3:11, which is a 41 minute timespan in which something awful happened. I wonder if LE was able to determine from the recording the exact time that the attack began and ended?

 

[tresir2012]

Is the timespan too short for it to mean the whole trip there? Maybe from drop off?

Yes. They were dropped of at 1.35 and BG video was 2.30.
ETA I just noticed Hockey has replied too.

 

[scruffydog]

On the age, when I look at the video I can see a possibility this guy is in the 30 to mid 40's range. But the image is very poor when magnified in that manner. When I look at the sketch it appears this guy could be as young as 16 or 17. The problem with that young a person is that they would likely be someone who should be in school. If the nearby high schools were out that day as well, then of course he would be out of school but residing very close to the trail. I would imagine someone that young would not as likely be from as far away as 150-200 miles. (Some school systems might still have vocational education programs where students can leave school early for jobs in the workplace. Such a student could have been off that day and those students are more likely to own or have easy access to a vehicle. I don't know what IN has in the way of such programs, but we had such a program in my high school.) Otherwise this could be someone as young as 18 going by the sketch.

LE doesn't seem to state an age as young as I'm stating, preferring to state that he could look young for his age. It makes me wonder how they come up with that scenario. I don't see it being the video or the still images from it. I believe LE finds it in the best interest to provide the best image possible and those images are the result of their best efforts to enhance the image - i.e., they are not holding back with the images. And yet looking at those images I don't see how LE can come up with an age other than ruling out a 12-13 year old or 70+ year old man. I wonder if the age range is based on an FBI or other such criminal profile as well as witness accounts.

This is only my thiught, and most peopke dont think like me!!....the reason i dont think BG is as young as say 16-20, is that to me, if a killer were this age, he would be more likely to kill a family member, than to successfully carry out a double murder, and be able to escape. I think it takes more resolve, and more advanced thought process, planning skils, and calmness that most teens possess.
BG’s voice , as I've statedbefore, sounds older to me, and my estimate continues to be35-40 years old.

 

[IQuestion]

More likely alcohol abuse. And, if drugs, PEDs.

But, I agree, a case is being built imho, too.

Yeah, BNA'S post!!bbm Still looking up info on PEDs/steroids and YES, it is possible if evidence collection from the crime scene yielded "blood and hair" samples.
" The metabolites of the steroids or high levels of testosterone are detectable in the donor's blood from 14 to 28 days of the intake. The second most commonly administered test is the hair follicle test."
MP stated his Libby "fought like hell"...ugh so sad to write. IMO, implies lots of physical contact...maybe even torn fabric or buttons. That's all that has been publicly stated about the crime scene. Oh, "how you left them" as spoken by Supt DC implied to me some sort of postmortem movement, staging & manipulation of victims. One photo indicated absence of leaves, like dragging? BTW which is what I think he purposely did to hide the girls from a casual hiker... up and away from the creek's edge, and "down the hill" from any path. And then, it was also stated they were also covered with leaves and sticks...those could also yield perps DNA if he quickly grabbed sticks and handfuls of leaves.
This "arrestee definitely has the Roid Neck"...
State troopers bust steroid manufacturing lab in southern Indiana

 

[mtnlites]

Building the case? They are taking their time then

A case like this and this madman could strike again any minute. They have had years. All that evidence...images,audio and still nothing. I don’t think they have a clue at all

I don't think they do either. He killed 2 little girls. His bail would be so high that nobody could afford it. They could build their case while he was in jail awaiting trial.

 

[mtnlites]

This is the one I saw. Wasn’t sure about the date since @mtnlites said it was posted a couple of days prior to this.

In an effort to stop circling around this topic and to let it rest in peace since Kelsi and BP have both addressed it already, I simply misspoke. It's dated on the 13th which is a day before the girls were found. I didn't remember the date because I had moved on from it more than a year ago and hadn't looked at it since. For some posters it's brand new information, for others it's not. It's not a piece of information that I found particularly useful or pertinent and there's only so much room for relevant information in my head when it comes to this case. Had this been something that had not already been explained then it would've had a placement closer to the top.

 

[Thelastleg]

I have recently seen what looks like part of the convo that Kelsie mentions and it appears it took place on the day of the murders. The comments I saw were dated 13th Feb 2017 approx between 11 a.m. and 2 p.m. so I hope we are all discussing the same posts.

I'm not reading too much into this as BG has covered his tracks so well so far. Anyone with any knowledge/involvement would be recklessly stupid to draw attention to themselves. However in the murder trial of 16 year old Becky Watts in Bristol England by her 23 year old step brother in 2015 it came to light that he had been texting his Co accused about planning to kidnap a teenage girl. His defence said that it was unfortunate and sarcastic. Him and his girlfriend were both found guilty of murder and dismembering her.

 

[tresir2012]

In an effort to stop circling around this topic and to let it rest in peace since Kelsi and BP have both addressed it already, I simply misspoke. It's dated on the 13th which is a day before the girls were found. I didn't remember the date because I had moved on from it more than a year ago and hadn't looked at it since. For some posters it's brand new information, for others it's not. It's not a piece of information that I found particularly useful or pertinent and there's only so much room for relevant information in my head when it comes to this case. Had this been something that had not already been explained then it would've had a placement closer to the top.

I don't believe it has ever been discussed before on here. Only because it would not be allowed previously. If it has could you give a thread/post number as your recollections are generally top notch? The date is what makes it unusual. Any other date before would seem unremarkable IMO, while a date after would be very ill conceived IMO.

 

[tresir2012]

I don't think they do either. He killed 2 little girls. His bail would be so high that nobody could afford it. They could build their case while he was in jail awaiting trial.

There would be no bail for a double murderer. Also, LE cannot just arrest someone without evidence/probable cause etc. DNA is taking 7 months to come back. If they knew who it was at the April PC, that would mean November at the earliest, before we hear anything. If we get to December and no news, then I will believe they have nothing except new tips coming in. MOO

 

[Seattle1]

dbm - answered!

 

[tresir2012]

I'm not reading too much into this as BG has covered his tracks so well so far. Anyone with any knowledge/involvement would be recklessly stupid to draw attention to themselves. However in the murder trial of 16 year old Becky Watts in Bristol England by her 23 year old step brother in 2015 it came to light that he had been texting his Co accused about planning to kidnap a teenage girl. His defence said that it was unfortunate and sarcastic. Him and his girlfriend were both found guilty of murder and dismembering her.

Yes I do remember that dreadful case. Thank you for the reminder. Murderers are not always clever as we know and can be caught out by many things. The two recent convictions in the Ying Ying case and the Sydney Loofe case show how such mistakes are made. If it weren't for a teenage girl outsmarting BG completely and getting him on video and audio, this case would be unsolvable IMO.

 

[mtnlites]

quotes bbm

I'm also confused -- difficult to keep up!

Just to be clear, and a second time for the record:

I understand the initial fb post, allegedly about "lyrics," was posted before the girls were killed, correct?

I understand the girls were killed, just a few days after the post appeared, correct?

If my understanding is correct, then I don't understand how any screen shot post about "lyrics," dated 2/13/17 or later, can be authentic, and/or screen shot of the true, initial fb post.

Seriously, am I missing anything?

Thanks.

On the 13th a close family member's friend made a FB post and the family member replied. The post was cringeworthy in that it referenced underage sex.

According to both Kelsi and BP the post is real, but it was just referencing song lyrics. That's all. Since both family members have referenced the post, it stands to reason that it was legit.Authenticity is not being questioned, the rumors were that it had something to do with the murders. Two family members have spoken out and explained it. That's it. This was made more than 2 years ago and it seemed that the rumor had been put to rest a long time ago and, yet, here it is again.

 

[Seattle1]

On the 13th a close family member's friend made a FB post and the family member replied. The post was cringeworthy in that it referenced underage sex.

According to both Kelsi and BP the post is real, but it was just referencing song lyrics. That's all. Since both family members have referenced the post, it stands to reason that it was legit.Authenticity is not being questioned, the rumors were that it had something to do with the murders. Two family members have spoken out and explained it. That's it. This was made more than 2 years ago and it seemed that the rumor had been put to rest a long time ago and, yet, here it is again.

Thanks @mtnlites -- already deleted my inquiry once you clarified the date was indeed 2/13/17.

 

[tresir2012]

These were the rumors she debunked:
- LGs phone pinged on 2 towers because the towers are small and close together

- Amanda ? is not related to a person with the initials JD

- No one refused a lie detector and they have provided DNA

- MP doesn’t have a biological child that he hasn’t raised. Not sure if he has one that he did raise or if this was in reference to an illegitimate child rumor.

- DG doesn’t talk about the crime because he’s concerned people will twist his words

- LG didn’t call DG at 2:30 to pick them up. She called him before they left otherwise KG said she wouldn’t have taken them

- CP’s questionable FB post was actually a song.

- He wasn’t near Delphi at the time and they know who he was with. CP texts her later in the broadcast and says he was at work. She thought he was Michael.

- The family isn’t taking the donation money and using it for themselves. KG says in the beginning they didn’t want money and told people to keep it because they don’t want or need it. They said to give it to the reward fund. Now they are asking for money for the ball park which helps the family grieve.

- KG wrote a paper as a freshman about the experiences of a friend.

- KG and LG were not pregnant and KG isn’t married. LG only had one boyfriend ever and they just went to the park and sat on the swings. KG took them

- Renner video was the first video she did alone and she misspoke. She said there were not 10-20 kids there when she dropped them off. They were there throughout the day. She said she saw nobody at the park.

- BP told Renner that she called KG at work and she didn’t answer. KG says she went back to work after helping search and she got called to the police station. She thinks that is what BP is talking about.

I stopped watching because after this she started talking about her dog. She may have said more, but prior to the dog convo she seemed to be wrapping up the rumor discussion.

Edit: The title is Debunking the Renner Video. Kind of misleading since the majority of what she talked about wasn’t in the Renner videos. Any incorrect info in Renner’s videos was provided by the family and not misconstrued by Renner himself. Just saying....

Thank you for posting this!

Rumors debunked/clarifications in point form (I tried to get everything verbatim but consider these the key points in a summary form) I have bolded the rumors she wanted to debunk....sorry it gets really long:

• Libby asked Kesli to take them while she was getting ready to go to a friends house (after saying no a few times during the week)
• Kelsi pulled away from dropping off the girls at 1:35 PM. She called her boyfriend to say that she was on her way (she knows the time because she had taken alot longer than she had expected)
• Becky had called Kelsi while Kelsi was getting ready for work that night and she didn't answer the first time. (She usually answers because Becky 'freaks out' when she doesn't answer) The first time she didn't answer and then Becky called Kelsi a second time (she knew something was up because she was calling multiple times) She called her back (after the second call) and Becky told her Libby was missing. She asked if she had heard from her and Kelsi hadn't.
• Kelsi called work and said her sister was missing and then went to the bridge at around 4:30 PM to help search for the girls.
• Derrick and some of the family was already there when Kelsi arrived
• They called the police at 5:30 PM (that's when they reported them missing)
• They all went to the Police Station after that and they all told them everything they knew
• They ended up calling off the search that night because it is hazardous there and the trails/hills are really steep and were trying to make sure that everyone was as safe as possible
• Family and friends continued searching because they knew something was wrong (Libby wasn't answering her phone)
• The group across the creek ended up finding them the next afternoon about a half mile away
• Libby's phone pinged on two towers because the town is so small (you can move from one side of the house to the other and phones can switch towers) Her phone did not move it was in one place. It is because of how close together the towers are that it pinged on two towers.
• Kelsi's Aunt Amanda Duvall (who means alot to her) was married to a Duvall who is NOT JD and there is no relation (there are two Amanda Duvall's)
• No one refused a lie detector test (family has provided DNA and has done lie detectors) and nobody has refused to give anything to LE
• The family really likes LE believes they are very honest and forthcoming and encouraging and Kelsi is very proud of their work and she knows they are going to get an arrest
• Kelsi's Grandfather is the strongest man she has ever met (and her Grandma is the strongest woman) and if he had a biological child he would own it. Family is so important to him. He would never give up a biological child ever. There is no way he could ever hurt anyone
• Libby loves her dad and thinks he is amazing. Libby's dad doesn't talk because he knows that people will play a game of 'telephone' with him. They will change/twist his words and so he doesn't speak because of this. He doesn't like alot of attention. He couldn't hurt a fly. He is scared of spiders and is not that tough even though if he looks it
• Libby never called Derrick at 2:30 PM to ask him to pick them up and phone records prove this. She only called him before they left to make sure he could pick them up. Kesli wouldn't have taken Libby if he wasn't coming to pick them up
• Family is not taking the money and using it themselves. They told people to give the money to the reward fund. Now they are working to raise money for the Ball Park
• Kelsi wrote a report her freshman year about her friend (it is overexaggerated) and she did really well on the project. The report has nothing to do with her own personal story
• Kelsi is not pregnant and not married and has no intentions of having babies for 2o years
• Kelsi's Uncle Cody's social media post was about a song and the song was inappropriate and it had nothing to do with anything other than it was just a song
• Uncle Cody's whereabouts have been verified that day (he was at work that day)
• Libby was not pregnant and was not interested in sex (it scared her) and she had a negative two pain tolerance.
• Renner's video was her first interview and she was nervous. In the interview it sounded like she said there was 10-20 kids when she dropped them off. She did not see anyone when she dropped off the girls but throughout the day there were 10 to 2o people there that she knows of
• Grandma had said in Renner's video that she called Kelsi at work and she didn't answer. Kelsi did go back to work that day for around 10-20 minutes (thought that nothing was wrong and that the girls would be found) and then she was called to go back to the police station to answer more questions (to clarify, Grandma called her that day twice before Kelsi knew the girls were missing) then called her again later when she went back to work for a very short while. Kelsi returned to the police station almost right after going back to work.

I hope this helps summarize for those who cannot watch or listen to the video.

Edited for clarity in some places

Bringing forward Cutiekitty's and Bradfordsleuth's summaries/transcripts about Kelsie's debunking video. It is clear from this that the SM post being discussed was from the day the girls disappeared, ie the 13th.

Thanks again Cutie and Brad for these. As you can see they are useful for reference.

 

[susiQ]

On the 13th a close family member's friend made a FB post and the family member replied. The post was cringeworthy in that it referenced underage sex.

According to both Kelsi and BP the post is real, but it was just referencing song lyrics. That's all. Since both family members have referenced the post, it stands to reason that it was legit.Authenticity is not being questioned, the rumors were that it had something to do with the murders. Two family members have spoken out and explained it. That's it. This was made more than 2 years ago and it seemed that the rumor had been put to rest a long time ago and, yet, here it is again.

To clarify, there was NO rumour. The post has been acknowledged as being authentic by the family. What is not verified is that it has anything to do with the murders, which I don't believe it does. What is perplexing to me is the explanation given, that the the post referred to lyrics of a song, and this is what I find questionable, as no one, up until now has been able to link that posts "lyrics" to any rap song. That's were the problem lies in this discussion. People just need to accept that the post was real and it was therefore disturbing.
ed:gr

 

[Spy Versus Spy]

Bringing forward Cutiekitty's and Bradfordsleuth's summaries/transcripts about Kelsie's debunking video. It is clear from this that the SM post being discussed was from the day the girls disappeared, ie the 13th.

Thanks again Cutie and Brad for these. As you can see they are useful for reference.

The frustrating thing is, imo, no-one who has any idea of the case and what LE has put forward, and the generally obvious info that can be summised, surely cannot think either CP or MP or DG had any direct involvement in the Murders.

That however, is not the point.

The actual nature of the convo that KG felt needed to be addressed, or the nature and alibi of MP that KG felt in need of addressing, or the debunking why DG doesnt have the same profile in the case as other members have taken on, which KG felt needed to be addressed, is not ANY kind of belief of their direct involvement in the crime. The real questions cannot and were not answered because the very valid questions cannot be asked. They very likely would result in the same outcome for those mentioned in the KG broadcast, but could very well shed light on other people, their nature and their motivations.

All Moo

 

[tresir2012]

To clarify, there was NO rumour. The post has been acknowledged as being authentic by the family. What is not verified is that it has anything to do with the murders, which I don't believe it does. What is perplexing to me is the explanation given, that the the post referred to lyrics of a song, and this is what I find questionable, as no one, up until now has been able to link that posts "lyrics" to any rap song. That's were the problem lies in this discussion. People just need to accept that the post was real and it was therefore disturbing.
ed:gr

I agree there appears to be no actual rumour as it has been acknowledged as genuine. It is the explanation that is seemingly doubtful, rather than the origin or date of the post itself. But MOO.