Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #111

[bradfordsleuth]

A Friday afternoon ramble of thoughts, some a rehash of stuff I have posted before....and all JMO......sorry, I am long-winded again.

I get the sense that many posters here are feeling discouraged because there hasn't been any new news or an arrest yet. Please don't lose hope!

I really don't want to believe that many of us are underestimating LE and the manner in which they have handled this case so far. So many of the best of the best in the world have had their eyes on this case over the past two and half years, I can't let myself believe that they have nothing and are throwing out 'hail mary's' or are so desperate that they are just hoping for people to suddenly remember a car from 2 and a half years ago. I have to continue to believe that there are reasons why they say what they say and that now they've got this.

Its very difficult for all of us posters who want to help in any way possible to sit back and re-hash the same old things and bring forward the same old links with quoted lines that most of us know verbatim. It makes you feel helpless and hopeless when that happens. We are all so connected to this case and want to seek justice for Abby and Libby so badly that it feels like with no news, it means no progress.

I really don't think that is the case here.

Something prompted that last presser and the change in sketch. Something BIG. You all have seen this section of transcript from the presser before, but I am bringing it forward again.
@ScumbagTrav post upthread prompted me to do this.

April 22nd, 2019 Presser
"The result of the new information and intelligence over time leads us to believe the sketch which you will see shortly is the person responsible for the murders of these two little girls.

[....]

Directly to the killer who may be in this room. We believe you are hiding in plain sight. For more than two years you never thought we would shift gears to a different investigative strategy but we have. We likely have interviewed you or someone close to you. We know that this is about power to you and you want to know what we know. And one day you will."

I think that the killer got cocky and made a mistake that LE has caught onto in the last 10 to 12 months. I think that early on, the killer tried to get close to the investigation in an attempt to find out what LE had in the way of evidence and in circling back to the beginning, they have now narrowed in on their suspect. Perhaps he was part of the reason why things may have been distorted in the first place, but not in a capacity that anyone ever expected?

I think he overestimated himself and it has now caught up to him.
He certainly never expected that a 14 year-old girl would be brilliant and brave enough to film and record him unknowingly while he walked toward them!

Why no arrest yet? Obviously I only can say what my opinion is ....which is that the DA only has one chance at this and that LE needs to make sure that every single piece of evidence they have is irrefutable so there is no chance for the killer to escape prosecution, especially if the killer ends up being someone prominent in the state of Indiana.

The topic of DNA is always a grey area in this case and I will say again that I think the killer was so covered up in all possible bare areas that it made leaving behind usable DNA almost impossible. I also think he may have made use of his proximity to the creek to wash off any traces and maybe even came prepared with something that helps destroy DNA. I think it was all planned out by him....but perhaps not who his victims would be.

Another comment I have is that they prominently displayed the 1st sketch at the presser on July 17th 2017
ISP holds press conference on Delphi murders

"Never in my career have I stood in front of something like this. Please be patient with us. Please. We're just beginning. We are we are just now beginning."

There was a vast difference in the tone and vibe of the presser between the last time they released a sketch and this time. I think that they are confident that they are on the right track now....but I now think they have quite a road ahead before they can put handcuffs on him.

IMO The covering of the sketch with the red board at the April 22nd presser and then the 'unveiling' of the sketch at the presser was done to rattle the killer and they knew that he would be watching. I believe that they want him to know that they are watching his every move and that he will not get away with ever committing another crime again.

I admire the way that the posters here keep these threads alive and always on page 1.

Over 120,000 posts (give or take) are all a tribute to how much Abby and Libby mean to all of us and a testament to the fact that we won't give up on seeing this case through to the end when we finally get to see 'ARREST' on the title of their thread.

All of this is just my perspective on things and my own opinion.
Edited for clarity.

 

[raja]

IMO they know who, what and where about the parked car at the abandoned CPS building. That was a signal to BG and or their family. "You want to know what we know"....here's a clue. I am inclined to also think that that desktop screen shot on the projected screen showed info to those LE are watching "You want to know..." again.

 

[Justice101]

Honestly, I don't know what to think.

Maybe they know who they think it is... but they have no conclusive DNA evidence or any other evidence to arrest. And they expect no more.

The only help they could get would be an eye witness to put an alibi in question or an article of the killer's clothing with the girls' DNA on it.

Otherwise, without one significant physical piece of evidence OR sworn statement on someone that knows BG, they have no hope of solving the case. Not because they are not good investigators... but because the killed did not make any major mistakes to incriminate himself.

 

[Falling Down]

IMO they know who, what and where about the parked car at the abandoned CPS building. That was a signal to BG and or their family. "You want to know what we know"....here's a clue. I am inclined to also think that that desktop screen shot on the projected screen showed info to those LE are watching "You want to know..." again.

I'm inclined to think they have some info about the vehicle, however how much we don;t know. I know a witness gave a vague description early on, but have any other witnesses come forward with descriptions about a vehicle parked there that day? We don't know.

May very well be LE has some more info, but wish to "not play their hand", as has been mentioned in the past. There would have been multiple witnesses who would have seen a vehicle parked there that day, they either would have seen it from the area of the Freedom Bridge while walking, or people driving by on C.R. 300. would have seen it. Not many people, really, and then there's the question of how many would have remembered details about the vehicle.

 

[Charlot123]

Honestly, I don't know what to think.

Maybe they know who they think it is... but they have no conclusive DNA evidence or any other evidence to arrest. And they expect no more.

The only help they could get would be an eye witness to put an alibi in question or an article of the killer's clothing with the girls' DNA on it.

Otherwise, without one significant physical piece of evidence OR sworn statement on someone that knows BG, they have no hope of solving the case. Not because they are not good investigators... but because the killed did not make any major mistakes to incriminate himself.

And this makes me think it might have been a totally different person. With more knowledge, too.

When I read about Golden State Killer, apparently, the police top suspect was someone very remote from the real perpetrator. And that, probably, delayed the investigation.

What if the person who left his car at the CPS building just left it there because he had to do something in the town? What if someone parked and very quietly went into town for a clandestine date? What if this has nothing to do with the killings? People may be in the vicinity for own reasons. RL's land was the place where the crime had been committed, it does not make RL the murderer.

BTW, do we have any mathematical models of crimes? This is the situation where such study could be applicable.

 

[Charlot123]

I looked up the hunting season in IN.

http://www.eregulations.com/indiana/hunting/hunting-regulations/

Seems that February 13 was out of the hunting season?

Also, it seems that the property owners don't need the hunting license in certain occasions.

"If you meet the following exemptions, then you do not need a license to hunt your own property. Exemptions: Landowners or lessees of farmland who farm that land and are residents of Indiana are not required to obtain a permit while hunting, fishing, or trapping on the land they own or lease."

I don't know if landowners or lessees are allowed to hunt on their property all year round, though.

So if this guy was dressed as the hunter or a fisherman, and the season was over, was he risking getting fined or jailed if he ran into the inspectors?

But more interesting, Indiana hunting rules tie up hunting to landowning or farming. Is it relevant for the case?

 

[JnRyan]

And this makes me think it might have been a totally different person. With more knowledge, too.

When I read about Golden State Killer, apparently, the police top suspect was someone very remote from the real perpetrator. And that, probably, delayed the investigation.

What if the person who left his car at the CPS building just left it there because he had to do something in the town? What if someone parked and very quietly went into town for a clandestine date? What if this has nothing to do with the killings? People may be in the vicinity for own reasons. RL's land was the place where the crime had been committed, it does not make RL the murderer.

BTW, do we have any mathematical models of crimes? This is the situation where such study could be applicable.

I agree. At this point the car parked there is simply an unaccounted for person. The killer? Another potential witness who reveal another crucial piece of the puzzle? Or just a dead end? Like a lot of other cases I have the same question: "If this car and the occupant(s) are crucial to the investigation why did LE wait over 2 years to ask about it?" If a suspicious person walked past me some place and later committed a crime I seriously doubt I would remember what they were wearing a month or two later. Memories on things like this have a short shelf life and waiting too long could mean the loss of crucial info.

 

[tresir2012]

This is a Gray Hughes live from a week or so ago which appears to be partly about a vehicle so I thought I would post the link as his videos are authorised and we are in a bit of a quiet period regarding the case. I haven't watched it but have got some info from the comments.

 

[JnRyan]

I looked up the hunting season in IN.

http://www.eregulations.com/indiana/hunting/hunting-regulations/

Seems that February 13 was out of the hunting season?

Also, it seems that the property owners don't need the hunting license in certain occasions.

"If you meet the following exemptions, then you do not need a license to hunt your own property. Exemptions: Landowners or lessees of farmland who farm that land and are residents of Indiana are not required to obtain a permit while hunting, fishing, or trapping on the land they own or lease."

I don't know if landowners or lessees are allowed to hunt on their property all year round, though.

So if this guy was dressed as the hunter or a fisherman, and the season was over, was he risking getting fined or jailed if he ran into the inspectors?

But more interesting, Indiana hunting rules tie up hunting to landowning or farming. Is it relevant for the case?[/QU

In a case where a long gun was used like the Childs/Metzler murders (.30-30 rifle) or Alexandra Brueger (shotgun), I can see a game official or LE stopping someone to question them or check their weapon - based on my years of hunting experience. But here, if the killer had a handgun concealed, I highly doubt anyone LE official is going to give anyone a second glance if it is regard to illegal hunting or poaching.

 

[Charlot123]

Several questions. Re BG.

- is the absence of the second participant, co-conspirator of BG, fully ruled out by the police?

- “morbid desire for self-affirmation”, could be true for BG.

- at times it seems that BG is a loner, hiding somewhere at the farm, but occasionally I ask myself if BG has influential parents who make the case so difficult. Not that the police are covering them up, but rich folks have own lawyers, all that jazz. It might make the investigation very difficult.

 

[Intrigued25]

And in an event in which every word likely scripted...how do you get the date wrong? Idk. Just so many question marks about this vehicle.

And I want to point out that Carter brought this up VERY early in the PC. Before any video was show, sketch given, or audio played. Could this have been a tactic to perhaps get someone to squirm? Lead with this small detail to really show BG they are on to him? Am I over thinking it? Lol.

The different dates reminded me of the different dates on the girl's headstones. I assume the death certificates are accurate

I found this on a forensics page, makes sense...in a criminal investigation the date of death cannot be altered as opens the door for defence attorneys to find fault in the investigation.

"While some officers seek clues by interviewing people associated with the victim, other crime scene investigators may utilize scientific methods of observation and examination to come up with a fairly accurate time of death. Of course, this process is difficult and requires advanced training to know where to look and how to measure variables; not surprisingly, the information needs to be precise, accurate, and able to stand up in court, especially when defense attorneys go out of their way to question every action and procedure"

 

[CSIDreamer]

The different dates reminded me of the different dates on the girl's headstones

I found on a forensics page, makes sense...in a criminal investigation the date of death cannot be altered as opens the door for defence attorneys to find fault in the investigation.

"While some officers seek clues by interviewing people associated with the victim, other crime scene investigators may utilize scientific methods of observation and examination to come up with a fairly accurate time of death. Of course, this process is difficult and requires advanced training to know where to look and how to measure variables; not surprisingly, the information needs to be precise, accurate, and able to stand up in court, especially when defense attorneys go out of their way to question every action and procedure"

I'm fairly certain the death certificates are accurate in this case. Families can often opt to inscribe a tombstone with the date their loved one was discovered.

 

[PaulaDC]

Great questions...and the right questions to ask imo. It seems so odd tho to ask the public for about a vehicle parked somewhere, 2 years after the vehicle was parked there. Like, who could possibly remember that?

And in an event in which every word likely scripted...how do you get the date wrong? Idk. Just so many question marks about this vehicle.

And I want to point out that Carter brought this up VERY early in the PC. Before any video was show, sketch given, or audio played. Could this have been a tactic to perhaps get someone to squirm? Lead with this small detail to really show BG they are on to him? Am I over thinking it? Lol.

I just dont think they lead with this by accident. But idk. Rambling now...

But here is the beginning to the PC via transcript, to show how soon they gave this request for vehicle info...

I wasn’t sure quite what to expect when I walked out, but I got to say to the Delphi Community, um, I got to say to the Delphi Community how grateful I am. You inspire people you don’t even understand when, you don’t even understand why. Information is being released today is the result of literally thousands and thousands of hours of extraordinary investigative efforts by Delphi, Carroll County, The FBI, The Indiana State Police and countless other agencies.

This community surrounded us some 26 months ago. And you did everything you could to support us, but most importantly you surrounded the family of these two little girls. Gosh, I’ll never forget it! After you hear what we’re going to release today I’m going to ask for your continued support, your continued understanding, your empathy and compassion as we move forward to find out who did this….and we will.

We’re seeking the public’s help to identify the driver of a vehicle that was parked at the old CPS/DCS welfare building in the city of Delphi...​

Or they led with it as if that was their new info to pull BG in and then ~walah~ they uncover the new image for the real shocker.

 

[ACE422]

A Friday afternoon ramble of thoughts, some a rehash of stuff I have posted before....and all JMO......sorry, I am long-winded again.

I get the sense that many posters here are feeling discouraged because there hasn't been any new news or an arrest yet. Please don't lose hope!

I really don't want to believe that many of us are underestimating LE and the manner in which they have handled this case so far. So many of the best of the best in the world have had their eyes on this case over the past two and half years, I can't let myself believe that they have nothing and are throwing out 'hail mary's' or are so desperate that they are just hoping for people to suddenly remember a car from 2 and a half years ago. I have to continue to believe that there are reasons why they say what they say and that now they've got this.

Its very difficult for all of us posters who want to help in any way possible to sit back and re-hash the same old things and bring forward the same old links with quoted lines that most of us know verbatim. It makes you feel helpless and hopeless when that happens. We are all so connected to this case and want to seek justice for Abby and Libby so badly that it feels like with no news, it means no progress.

I really don't think that is the case here.

Something prompted that last presser and the change in sketch. Something BIG. You all have seen this section of transcript from the presser before, but I am bringing it forward again.
@ScumbagTrav post upthread prompted me to do this.

April 22nd, 2019 Presser
"The result of the new information and intelligence over time leads us to believe the sketch which you will see shortly is the person responsible for the murders of these two little girls.

[....]

Directly to the killer who may be in this room. We believe you are hiding in plain sight. For more than two years you never thought we would shift gears to a different investigative strategy but we have. We likely have interviewed you or someone close to you. We know that this is about power to you and you want to know what we know. And one day you will."

I think that the killer got cocky and made a mistake that LE has caught onto in the last 10 to 12 months. I think that early on, the killer tried to get close to the investigation in an attempt to find out what LE had in the way of evidence and in circling back to the beginning, they have now narrowed in on their suspect. Perhaps he was part of the reason why things may have been distorted in the first place, but not in a capacity that anyone ever expected?

I think he overestimated himself and it has now caught up to him.
He certainly never expected that a 14 year-old girl would be brilliant and brave enough to film and record him unknowingly while he walked toward them!

Why no arrest yet? Obviously I only can say what my opinion is ....which is that the DA only has one chance at this and that LE needs to make sure that every single piece of evidence they have is irrefutable so there is no chance for the killer to escape prosecution, especially if the killer ends up being someone prominent in the state of Indiana.

The topic of DNA is always a grey area in this case and I will say again that I think the killer was so covered up in all possible bare areas that it made leaving behind usable DNA almost impossible. I also think he may have made use of his proximity to the creek to wash off any traces and maybe even came prepared with something that helps destroy DNA. I think it was all planned out by him....but perhaps not who his victims would be.

Another comment I have is that they prominently displayed the 1st sketch at the presser on July 17th 2017
ISP holds press conference on Delphi murders

"Never in my career have I stood in front of something like this. Please be patient with us. Please. We're just beginning. We are we are just now beginning."

There was a vast difference in the tone and vibe of the presser between the last time they released a sketch and this time. I think that they are confident that they are on the right track now....but I now think they have quite a road ahead before they can put handcuffs on him.

IMO The covering of the sketch with the red board at the April 22nd presser and then the 'unveiling' of the sketch at the presser was done to rattle the killer and they knew that he would be watching. I believe that they want him to know that they are watching his every move and that he will not get away with ever committing another crime again.

I admire the way that the posters here keep these threads alive and always on page 1.

Over 120,000 posts (give or take) are all a tribute to how much Abby and Libby mean to all of us and a testament to the fact that we won't give up on seeing this case through to the end when we finally get to see 'ARREST' on the title of their thread.

All of this is just my perspective on things and my own opinion.
Edited for clarity.

BG, I hope you realize you are now the one being watched, stalked and hunted. May you lose sleep with unrelenting paranoia and night terrors. One of these days when that nightmare awakens you again, it will be a dream you will never wake up from. It will be your worst nightmare coming to life. COMING SOON

 

[tresir2012]

I wanted to quickly let everyone know that I did in fact send in my tip. I apologize for not responding to anyone or being on much the last few days. Working these 14 hour shifts have me exhausted. Few wee hours I'll finally have a 3 day break!!

Good job. LE have it so you can relax about it now. When I put in an email tip way back close to the beginning of the case it wasn't acknowledged, so that fact is welcome.

 

[rainwaterstill]

I wanted to quickly let everyone know that I did in fact send in my tip. I apologize for not responding to anyone or being on much the last few days. Working these 14 hour shifts have me exhausted. Few wee hours I'll finally have a 3 day break!!

For your own safety, you may want to go back and delete the posts where you described the situation/person and the statements you were going to send in a tip.In the past, the actual killer in different cases was reading and following their victim's thread on WS to see if they were being mentioned as a possible suspect. They were, and were at or near the top of most people's suspect lists.

 

[Maplesyrup]

The car aside, what else is there on the BG? The fact that he is a hunter? I hope they checked all hunting licenses issued in the Carrol county. To cross-check them against people who were interviewed.

If one of DNA profiles doesn’t match anyone even close, I am back to my dead drops in the woods theory as it could explain so much.

Really, nothing in the story belongs in “the Shack” to me, and the swiftness of the killings indicates someone very different, someone trained. One could always mask it as para-sexual act.

When you mention someone trained, are you thinking possibly someone like ex-military? Or more along the lines of someone who is a life-long hunter of animals or "hit man" quality...like someone who works for the mob and "offs" snitches?

 

[StarryStarryNight]

In the April 2019 PC or in a statement right afterwards, LE said they have a witness. What exactly do you think this person witnessed? Was it at the actual crime scene? The actual murders? BG walking across the creek with the girls? BG walking after the murders? Getting into a vehicle at CPS building?
Did the witness see something after the fact? Did they see BG destroying evidence, or wearing bloody clothes, drunk and bragging about it, manic depressed or inconsolable afterwards.
I doubt it concerned behavior changes after the fact, that wouldn’t qualify to me.
If LE has a witness how could they not know who it is? If they have a witness why is no one in jail?
Just wondering about this. What do y’all think?

 

[tresir2012]

In the April 2019 PC or in a statement right afterwards, LE said they have a witness. What exactly do you think this person witnessed?
BG walking after the murders? Getting into a vehicle at CPS building?
Did the witness see something after the fact? Did they see BG destroying evidence, or wearing bloody clothes, drunk and bragging about it, manic depressed or inconsolable afterwards.

If LE has a witness how could they not know who it is? If they have a witness why is no one in jail?
Just wondering about this. What do y’all think?

SBM to show what I think LE may possibly have and they need some corroborating evidence from friends or family. I also think the perp may be in jail or accused of another crime ATM. MOO.

 

[raja]

As I remember it the announcement of the car came close to the beginning and was only very briefly mentioned. I think this was totally scripted around that car for someone's benefit. The witness statement could be related to that car. The change in direction back to something looked at early on, the screen ops showing info on some vehicle. Everything in that PC was scripted.