Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #112

[Deleted member 102539]

However, Tobe Leazenby states that the actual attack was not captured on the phone. And, LE have NOT ruled out more than one person. There's nothing that precludes BG from "herding" the girls to the south end of the bridge and "down the hill" into the hands of someone else or others. JMHO.

UNKNOWN SUSPECT | Federal Bureau of Investigation
During the course of the investigation, evidence has led investigators to believe the aforementioned person is suspected of being involved in the murders of Liberty German and Abigail Williams.
-.-
Indeed, "involved" doesn't mean, he is the killer himself. A different statement said, the person on the bridge was "responsible" for the murder. What to make of it, Idk.

 

[TL4S]

UNKNOWN SUSPECT | Federal Bureau of Investigation
During the course of the investigation, evidence has led investigators to believe the aforementioned person is suspected of being involved in the murders of Liberty German and Abigail Williams.
-.-
Indeed, "involved" doesn't mean, he is the killer himself. A different statement said, the person on the bridge was "responsible" for the murder. What to make of it, Idk.

Yeah, I thought the same. The ISP site does call him a murder suspect, though.

ISP: Delphi Homicide Investigation

 

[Justice101]

Of course there is a possibility they could have been saved. When was sunset that day do we know (I'll look it up) I think maybe a few minutes before 5pm.

So it Derrick is there at 3:15 and the family arrives soon after, that is a good hour of sunlight right there. It takes a while for it to get completely dark. LE arrived sometime after 5pm. The girls were within less than a mile from where they were dropped off. Actually I think they were like 1/2 mile from the drop off. That is not a huge area.

These are modern times, we have high powered flashlights. Sure there is some danger but who is going to be running through the woods when they are searching. You can shine a flashlight in front of you to see what the terrain is to avoid any problems.. come on!! I was in the Army and spent most of the time on field maneuvers. We never had such excuses!! And then not to return until 10 am is just insane.

Who could sleep??? If they thought the the girls might have ran away don't people have cell phones these days? In a matter of minutes you could make all the calls to those known people they may have ran away to. Maybe a call to the mom in Kentucky would eliminate that scenario. I'm sure she would be able to figure out if they were headed her way by vibes given off in recent conversations. They didn't have a car or couldn't even drive.

By 4:30 they should have had a pretty good idea something was really wrong and that they needed to get all resources out there in those woods to find those girls. Who calls their dad and asks them to pick them up and then stands him up... doesn't make any sense at all. If your planning on running away why would you bother calling him and asking to be picked up. Just simply get your ride to the trail and you can take off from there if your planning to run away! Where is common sense here....

Truly a real failure in MOO!!!

They did a search.. they just didn't go thru the very rough terrain to get to the isolated area where the bodies were found. The most likely things were falling off the bridge (so checking DOWNSTREAM from the bridge), the bodies were found upstream.

I think it is easy to judge after the fact... Monday morning quarterbacking, etc... and hind site is 20-20.

 

[FinePrint]

So now that we have this kind of nailed down in regard to timing. Even if we just go with the billboard that BG was last seen at 2:30 and we go with the belief that time comes from Libby's phone. What can we come up with as far as the timing to:

1) go down the hill. 2) cross the creek. 3) commit the murder (in what fashion we don't know). 4) Leave the crime scene and be clear of the area

Of course this all plays on the theory that he had them go down the hill at the south side of the bridge and cross the creek and up into RLs property. I'm not all that convinced that is how it happened though.

What I'm trying to get at is how long would it have taken to kill the girls and get back up to the trailhead area or the road? I know its a wild guessing game but the timing is so important when we compare it to the known"s about the case. For instance the time Derrick arrives at the pick up point at what....3:14?

2:30 BG last seen per the billboard...Derrick at pick up point at 3:14. There is approximately 45 minutes right there. Lets also take into consideration the times that Derrick started calling Libby's phone as he approached the area and calls were going to voicemail and phone had not yet gone dead.

Did her phone just run out of battery life between the time Derrick first started calling and the other family members started showing up. Or did something happen to her phone in that short time period that caused it to shut down.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

I looked at his walk again. I now think that it is so odd because there is something in his pants - he has a hole on his R knee, from frequently carrying this thing that looks like a stick. Could it be a prosthesis? Then he won't get down the hill. The handle of a badminton racket, with the upper part being under his jacket? Something that used to be a racket but was turned into a weapon? Looks almost professional. Some kind of a club? Even a golf club can be a killing thing, only it doesn't look like one.

Any ideas? I think it is a certain weapon. A baseball bat? With the narrow end down, and the upper one under his jacket?

Trekking Poles like these?

Trekking Poles - 1 Pair | Eddie Bauer

 

[FinePrint]

I looked this up to see when the sunset the night of the 13th. Much later than I had originally thought!

 

[bradfordsleuth]

Yes! Thank you!

I don't understand why facebook posts and GH video call-ins are taken at face value, while LE is not.

I realize some of LE's statements are vague. Frustratingly so. But if we completely dismiss all the information they give us, all we have left are rumors.

It's really easy to claim LE lies because they're idiots, and ignore the fact that the investigation is ongoing and might change directions. Who cares that they know WAY more than we do, or the families do, or facebook posters do, or GH does, right? Everyone can decide for themselves what is fact, so long as it makes that day's theory work.

People provide reliable links, like interviews with LE, but that's not good enough. The few facts LE have given are highly questioned, and then replaced with something from the rumor mill because that seems to fill in the holes better. To us.

IMO, if we are going to ignore the information LE gives us, than we all need to quit complaining about the lack of information released.

Thank you and great post!

(Mods...can we please pin this to the first page of each thread?)

 

[FinePrint]

They did a search.. they just didn't go thru the very rough terrain to get to the isolated area where the bodies were found. The most likely things were falling off the bridge (so checking DOWNSTREAM from the bridge), the bodies were found upstream.

I think it is easy to judge after the fact... Monday morning quarterbacking, etc... and hind site is 20-20.

Yes all true but that is why we have LE. They are the ones who have the experience and expertise in these situations and have knowledge from past experiences. They know from hindsight in other cases. Just as in my "day job" I get paid to understand what has happened in past experiences, their potential outcomes and what steps to take to insure missteps are avoided. MOO

Edited to add: I'm a true supporter of LE. I'm thankful for all of their sacrifices so please don't get me wrong. I am not a LE hater at all. I just feel in this case they may have made some poor initial decisions.

 

[tresir2012]

So now that we have this kind of nailed down in regard to timing. Even if we just go with the billboard that BG was last seen at 2:30 and we go with the belief that time comes from Libby's phone. What can we come up with as far as the timing to:

1) go down the hill. 2) cross the creek. 3) commit the murder (in what fashion we don't know). 4) Leave the crime scene and be clear of the area

Of course this all plays on the theory that he had them go down the hill at the south side of the bridge and cross the creek and up into RLs property. I'm not all that convinced that is how it happened though.

What I'm trying to get at is how long would it have taken to kill the girls and get back up to the trailhead area or the road? I know its a wild guessing game but the timing is so important when we compare it to the known"s about the case. For instance the time Derrick arrives at the pick up point at what....3:14?

2:30 BG last seen per the billboard...Derrick at pick up point at 3:14. There is approximately 45 minutes right there. Lets also take into consideration the times that Derrick started calling Libby's phone as he approached the area and calls were going to voicemail and phone had not yet gone dead.

Did her phone just run out of battery life between the time Derrick first started calling and the other family members started showing up. Or did something happen to her phone in that short time period that caused it to shut down.

@TL4S did some useful distances and approximate timings if he/she could post them again for us. It was all doable in the time frame.

 

[FinePrint]

@TL4S did some useful distances and approximate timings if he/she could post them again for us. It was all doable in the time frame.

Yes, your right I do remember that. Thanks, I'll take a look back at TL4S prior posts to get it all straight in my head. I've had some thoughts that make me question some timelines, post the actual murders.

 

[Charlot123]

“According to an FBI description, the suspect weighs between 180 and 200 pounds and stands between 5 feet, 6 inches tall and 5 feet, 8 inchestall. He was wearing blue jeans, a blue jacket or coat and a hoodie at the time of the killings.”

Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #110
post #12

So it is important. I don’t know how the police determined the POI’s weight or height, but even 5’6” to 180 lbs is overweight.

(Unless they made a mistake again or he looks overweight because of all stuff he put under the jacket.
The witnesses should have seen at least his face, though).

BMI is important. My last POI was not tall, but by no means overweight. I am glad I haven’t reported anyone just because they look like the sketch. They would have been out of the BMI range provided by the police.(Simply because I haven’t heard their voices and don’t live in Delphi so I have no idea about their personalities).

Btw, one thing - there is a huge difference in quality between BG and Abby’s last picture. Why so?

 

[Charlot123]

UNKNOWN SUSPECT | Federal Bureau of Investigation
During the course of the investigation, evidence has led investigators to believe the aforementioned person is suspected of being involved in the murders of Liberty German and Abigail Williams.
-.-
Indeed, "involved" doesn't mean, he is the killer himself. A different statement said, the person on the bridge was "responsible" for the murder. What to make of it, Idk.

Involved is better. Someone who has been at the bridge at the time the girls disappeared.

For all I know, he might still be an “involved witness”.

 

[Yellow Rose]

Always praying for the day that justice is served for these two beautiful girls.

 

[Yemelyan]

Stalking, intimidation, assault, battery, sexual assault...unfortunately.

Brandishing.

 

[Charlot123]

I ran into an earlier post describing how the girls were dressed.

Libby - She was last seen wearing a tie-dyed shirt with fringe at the bottom, gray sweat pants with unknown black lettering and black Nike shoes.

Abby - She was last seen wearing a gray zip-up sweatshirt with a burgundy T-shirt underneath and blue jeans. MISSING: Two 13-year-old Carroll Co. girls

Is there any information about their makeup?

Here is what suddenly came to my mind. If they thought they were going to meet a boy or a young man one of them had a crush on, they were not dressed for the occasion - at all. Especially Libby. Abby had at least styled her hair in a more adult way. Libby was a tomboy, we heard, but even a tomboy would probably wear jeans for the purported date, or someone she had a crush on.

Perhaps they merely wanted to leave the house without being asked, and being dolled up would have raised suspicion. But still, some makeup, then?

So either they thought they were meeting someone they knew, or maybe the purpose of the meeting was not romantic at all? It could even be a breakup.

 

[Charlot123]

However, Tobe Leazenby states that the actual attack was not captured on the phone. And, LE have NOT ruled out more than one person. There's nothing that precludes BG from "herding" the girls to the south end of the bridge and "down the hill" into the hands of someone else or others. JMHO.

I merely think that personality-wise, Libby was such a fighter. It would have been much easier for two men to overpower the girls. Otherwise, it is unclear how she meekly went down the hill, and then fought for her life. If BG immobilized Abby with the gun, then, yes, Libby had to follow, but tricking them to go down the hill, and then, involvement of the second guy is more likely. And the second one is likely from the same family, a brother, a father, etc. That would also explain how they went down the hill and then, realizing it was a catch, tried to run away.

 

[ScumbagTrav]

Agreed. But the post I was responding to related to BG being the unequivocal killer of the girls, which is NOT an ABSOLUTE certainty. Yes, the "crime" began immediately after the video what captured. The rest is speculation on our part as we do not know what LE might know, and they have not ruled out more than one person. That, is a fact.

While they havent publicly ruled out more than one person, i cannot find any (especially recent) communication from LE that doesnt talk about the responsible party in singularity. They seem to be looking for one person only. That would lead me to believe they have no evidence or intelligence that leads them to believe a 2nd suspect was involved. I mean, its factual they havent ruled out terrorists, too..

 

[TL4S]

So now that we have this kind of nailed down in regard to timing. Even if we just go with the billboard that BG was last seen at 2:30 and we go with the belief that time comes from Libby's phone. What can we come up with as far as the timing to:

1) go down the hill. 2) cross the creek. 3) commit the murder (in what fashion we don't know). 4) Leave the crime scene and be clear of the area

Of course this all plays on the theory that he had them go down the hill at the south side of the bridge and cross the creek and up into RLs property. I'm not all that convinced that is how it happened though.

What I'm trying to get at is how long would it have taken to kill the girls and get back up to the trailhead area or the road? I know its a wild guessing game but the timing is so important when we compare it to the known"s about the case. For instance the time Derrick arrives at the pick up point at what....3:14?

2:30 BG last seen per the billboard...Derrick at pick up point at 3:14. There is approximately 45 minutes right there. Lets also take into consideration the times that Derrick started calling Libby's phone as he approached the area and calls were going to voicemail and phone had not yet gone dead.

Did her phone just run out of battery life between the time Derrick first started calling and the other family members started showing up. Or did something happen to her phone in that short time period that caused it to shut down.

Okay. There's a general rule to figuring out how long it will take to hike a certain distance:
Naismith's rule - Wikipedia
Basically, if walking at normal pace, on fairly even terrain, it should take 20-30 minutes to walk a mile. A mile is 5280 feet. To figure out the time for any distance, I use this formula: if x = the number of feet walked, the formula for 20 minutes/mile would be: x(20)/5280. For 30 minutes/mile would be x(30)/5280. Please someone correct me if I'm wrong. A math wiz I am not.

It's right about 2000 ft. from where the girls were dropped off to the SC photo spot on the bridge. 2000(20)/5280=~7.6 min. Going slower - 2000(30)/5280=~11.4 min. This does NOT reflect time the girls may have spent taking pictures, dawdling, whatever. And that's important to remember. It's speculation for us. LE probably has this information.

In any case, even if they got on the trail at 1:45pm (and it could have been earlier), it took them over 20 minutes to get to that spot on the bridge, according to the infamous 2:07 SC time. That's double the time it would take on the long end of the range of a normal hike.

Part of me thinks they could have messed around and wasted that much time. Part of me thinks not. Part of me wonders if they hiked the trail below the bridge or to Freedom Bridge first. And part of me wonders if something slowed them down before getting to the high bridge, like an early encounter with BG or something. Who knows.

If you go with the idea that 2:30 is the bridge video time, and assume he engaged them then and there and led them across the creek, I'd say they were easily to the CS by 2:40 or 2:45. That gives ample time to traverse hills and cross the creek (a total of only around 700 feet). I don't know...

I'll let you do some math figuring out the other distances.

 

[susiQ]

While they havent publicly ruled out more than one person, i cannot find any (especially recent) communication from LE that doesnt talk about the responsible party in singularity. They seem to be looking for one person only. That would lead me to believe they have no evidence or intelligence that leads them to believe a 2nd suspect was involved. I mean, its factual they havent ruled out terrorists, too..

True, but Tobe was never asked about terrorists

 

[TL4S]

True, but Tobe was never asked about terrorists

He wasn't specifically not ask about terrorists, either. Hmm...