Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #117

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Status
Not open for further replies.
Genuine question no snark intended: for those that believe the new sketch is not the killer, are you saying LE has purposefully lied to the public?

No, I am saying that LE is not saying that they are 100% sure that the man in the 2nd sketch is the same person as the man in Liberty German's video. LE is saying they think the 2nd sketch is the same as the man in Liberty German's video. I am saying that people that listened to that press conference in April 2019 are taking what was said way too literally.

I think LE is simply taking chances with sketches hoping that with the wide array of variations between them that someone will eventually end up tipping in the right person, even if by accident.

If all you had were some eyewitnesses who think they may have seen the bridge guy leaving the area in addition to a blurry video that does not provide a definitive description, what would you do if you were investigating this case? What investigative strategy would you take?

So I understand why LE did what they did. Sometimes you have to hope to get lucky.
 
Because if there is anything distinctive about it, someone might remember uncle X having such a hat, but not wearing it recently

Yeah, and it was a fictional “changed” hat as well...

I doubt everyone read the fine print on that, kwim?

Well, at least if someone called in a tip saying “my neighbor has a hat like that”, they’d know to put that tip in the bottom of the pile...
 
Maybe both sketches are wrong. Sometimes they’re a dead ringer.

I'd never seen a sketch that looked like a perp. It was about 2am when I saw the sketch of NBG for the first time ... and I nearly fell off my chair. I was so excited I had to go and wake my poor husband up. "Guess what ...". He just looked at me and said, "OMG" and turned over.
 
I'd never seen a sketch that looked like a perp. It was about 2am when I saw the sketch of NBG for the first time ... and I nearly fell off my chair. I was so excited I had to go and wake my poor husband up. "Guess what ...". He just looked at me and said, "OMG" and turned over.

For a little levity to help keep us sane in here:

News Anchor Laughs At Worst Police Sketch Fail (News Blooper)
 
Last edited:
Published Aug 14, 2017

Holeman said, "The question is: Do we have DNA? Yea, we have DNA. We're just still working on determining what kind of DNA. Is it the victims? Is it the known family members or is it our suspect?"

He said detectives test and compare the DNA almost daily.

"We're still working on that," Holeman said. "We can't say, 'Do we have the suspect's DNA or don't we?' We have plenty of DNA, and we have plenty of testing to do, and it takes a lot of time."

Police open up about evidence 6 months after Delphi double homicide

From my transcript of Gray Hughes’ interview with Mike and Becky:

BP: … An FBI agent came out here. They only have one FBI agent that does everybody’s so it’s done consistently and he has – he took all of our whole family, yeah.

MP: They have a single investigator doing all DNA, you know, samples from everybody, whoever they deem that they needed to get DNA from.
The article claims that Holeman said they have DNA, but if you listen to the actual video of the interview I don't believe he really said they have DNA. In any event, a year at CrimeCon 2018 while he was up on the stage with Abigail's mother and Liberty's grandparents he stated they will neither confirm nor deny they have DNA.
 
KG keeps tweeting this and she just did again on Friday, NOV 22nd- Something to think about because, honestly, having Libby's video pics and then the 2 different sketches has been driving me crazy !!!!
Following
Kelsi German
@libertyg_sister
Kelsi German’s TweetsKelsi German
@libertyg_sister
·Nov 22
I CANNOT say this enough. A sketch IS NOT an image. The person who killed #abbyandlibby does not look identical to either sketch but will likely have characteristics from both. He may lean more towards #2 but please don’t completely forget #1


EJ_7rkjXsAE_Gtt
Do we know for certain if the NBG sketch came from a person who was on the bridge that day?
Is it possible that someone saw a person who was acting oddly hours, days, weeks, or months after the murders took place and that is where the sketch is from? Could it be that the first sketch was the person in disguise, and the second sketch is of the same person after the disguise was ditched? Just speculating and MOO
 
Doug Carter said, “… unless this person is deceased, somebody knows who did it. That’s the missing piece.”

Delphi Murders: The investigation two years later

Doh! You’re full of great quotes!

ETA: So jumping off this, how are they so certain someone knows who did it? Is this an educated guess? This sounds pretty definitive to me.

Do they have some sort of evidence to come to this conclusion definitively? There are plenty of folks who have been able to keep their crimes a secret...ask any of the wives on ID “Evil Lives Here”...

ETA2: Pulling the full quote:

““I hope that one day I can look into the eyes of the person that did this to Abby and Libby and ask him why and then let him know how I feel — but that day is not yet,” Carter said. “Hope is so very important, and I still have great hope and I believe in humanity that someone will do the right thing, eventually, because unless this person is deceased, somebody knows who did it. That’s the missing piece.””

Delphi Murders: The investigation two years later
 
Last edited:
The article claims that Holeman said they have DNA, but if you listen to the actual video of the interview I don't believe he really said they have DNA. In any event, a year at CrimeCon 2018 while he was up on the stage with Abigail's mother and Liberty's grandparents he stated they will neither confirm nor deny they have DNA.

That's why I had posted the date of the article, Aug 14, 2017, and I believe it's more credible because LE just skirted around the subject of DNA after that.

The article had his comments in quotation marks. There are legal implications if you falsely attribute quotes to people.
 
Maybe forensic artist Lois Gibson should have done the sketch for this case.
* It's a DailyMail link but there's quite a bit of info about LG online

Picture perfect: The amazing police artist whose sketches of criminals she's never seen look EXACTLY like the real suspects | Daily Mail Online

ETA YT link


Omg, I JUST came across that name “Lois Gibson” a couple hours ago in a 29 year old cold case, in an OLD article, and JUST made this post in another thread- that is wacky @fred&edna !

From Cheryl's and Andy’s thread, re: her rendering of an age progressed sketch of suspect in 2008:
What about reaching out to Lois Gibson for an updated, age progressed sketch? I’m not sure about you guys, but I think my appearance has changed some in 11 years.

—-

Who is this “Lois” we speak of..googling...
 
Doh! You’re full of great quotes!

ETA: So jumping off this, how are they so certain someone knows who did it? Is this an educated guess? This sounds pretty definitive to me.

Do they have some sort of evidence to come to this conclusion definitively? There are plenty of folks who have been able to keep their crimes a secret...

ETA2: Pulling the full quote:

““I hope that one day I can look into the eyes of the person that did this to Abby and Libby and ask him why and then let him know how I feel — but that day is not yet,” Carter said. “Hope is so very important, and I still have great hope and I believe in humanity that someone will do the right thing, eventually, because unless this person is deceased, somebody knows who did it. That’s the missing piece.””

Delphi Murders: The investigation two years later

BBM—MOO, but I’m wondering if the reason they’re so certain is because there was another person in the footage from Libby’s phone, perhaps someone lurking nearby who was captured only briefly, but who was clearly involved. Maybe that person was the “lookout” but didn’t actually commit the murders. Is it possible that’s why there hasn’t been more audio released? Maybe the other person’s voice is on the recording, and thats why they won’t release more audio. Again MOO.
 
Rsbm
Maybe the other person’s voice is on the recording, and thats why they won’t release more audio. Again MOO.

I would think that if there was another voice on the recording, that LE would release that voice so people could possibly identify him?

Also, if LE thought there was more than one suspect, wouldn’t they say so? That they’re looking for a “pair” and not just an individual?

Thoughts?
 
I would think that if there was another voice on the recording, that LE would release that voice so people could possibly identify him?

Also, if LE thought there was more than one suspect, wouldn’t they say so? That they’re looking for a “pair” and not just an individual?

Thoughts?
I agree. They are looking for an individual. They said the voice is the same as the man in the cell phone picture and the man who murdered Abby and Libby. That tells me they know a lot more than they have let out. But they are only suggesting one person as the killer.
 
I would think that if there was another voice on the recording, that LE would release that voice so people could possibly identify him?

Also, if LE thought there was more than one suspect, wouldn’t they say so? That they’re looking for a “pair” and not just an individual?

Thoughts?
That’s what I would think, too. But then I started wondering if it’s possible they are hoping the second person will come forward. Total speculation, obviously. But in this scenario, the second person (I’ll refer to him as “the lookout”) suggested in the phone footage that he was remorseful about what took place. I’m thinking the lookout would likely be someone willing to take part in a sexual assault, but not murder. Perhaps the lookout was even someone who had cognitive impairment and as a result could be easily manipulated by the killer into being the lookout, or who the killer had done a favor for in the past, perhaps related to another illegal activity, and now the lookout “owed him one.” Maybe he was on drugs and not entirely in his right mind when he agreed to take part. There are a million different reasons why he could have been convinced to take part.

But the key is that he showed guilt, and ISP decides to play on that in the hope that he will come forward. The guilt isn’t going to disappear after two years. If anything, as time goes on, the guilt will probably only worsen as the secret eats away at him.

In the April presser, Carter talks quite a bit about good vs evil, even if he’s not explicitly using those words. The good of the Delphi community vs the evil of the person who committed the murders. The reference to The Shack. Carter said he believes the killer “has a little bit of conscience left.” What if he wasn’t directing this towards the killer, himself, but the lookout?

Total speculation and MOO.
 
Hi everyone, new poster here.

I just wanted to say, in regards to sketch 1 vs sketch 2 and whether or not either looks like the man in the video -

I think that, although the video will probably end up being a net benefit to the investigation in the long term, in the short term I believe it led many people astray, and continues to.

The video is of such poor quality that it's like a rorschach test: everyone sees something slightly different; opinions get passed on and influence the eyes of others, etc.

I believe at first glance it looks like a middle aged man with a moustache, because the baggy multiple layers of clothing make him appear portly, and the shape underneath the nose appears so dark that you can't see a mouth until you zoom in close and play the video slowly over and over again. There might still be a moustache there, but it could just as easily be a clean shaven mouth with so much shadow and pixellation that it doesn't resemble one, at least in a still frame.

I wonder whether the common first impression of a middle aged, moustached man informs the way we hear the audio of his voice too, and it's subsequently difficult to shake that first impression.

I think it's important to note (and correct me if I'm wrong) that sketch #1 was a composite of various witness descriptions; sketch #2 is a sketch from a single particular person.

I feel that many people looked at that initial phone picture and started calling in to say they'd seen a portly bearded man here, an overweight man with a moustache in a hunting cap there, etc. I think that these sorts of descriptions were probably prioritised because they seem to match what you see in the phone picture before studying it (particularly two years before having the video to study), and so many tips with a similar description came in.

I feel that the second sketch probably got overlooked because it doesn't seem to resemble the phone picture and video. But under all those layers, with that amount of pixellation, it's impossible to say that it does or doesn't resemble the person.

<modsnip - not an approved source>

For what it's worth, too, I believe the age description of "18 - 40, but may look younger than his age" suggests that LE believe they're looking for someone in the younger side of that age range. Up to 40 years old is in there to not rule out anyone who happens to look young, but witnesses saw someone who looked young, and LE have reason to believe it.

My gut feeling is that they spent two years looking for a middle aged portly phantom because that was the first impression from the video; early this year they had an "ah-hah" moment and realised that someone was considered but dismissed early on, potentially with a motive (however warped and psychotic that might be), and it had been staring them in the face all along. Maybe if they'd been quicker to suspect the person in sketch 2, they could have pressured their friends and family, and the killer would have been easier to break in the interview room. Now it's over 2 years on and the killer will assume the police have a scant amount of evidence, so witnesses coming forward before the arrest is much more important than it would have been back then.

As I said, just my opinion.

Sorry for the long post!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Hi everyone, new poster here.

I just wanted to say, in regards to sketch 1 vs sketch 2 and whether or not either looks like the man in the video -

I think that, although the video will probably end up being a net benefit to the investigation in the long term, in the short term I believe it led many people astray, and continues to.

The video is of such poor quality that it's like a rorschach test: everyone sees something slightly different; opinions get passed on and influence the eyes of others, etc.

I believe at first glance it looks like a middle aged man with a moustache, because the baggy multiple layers of clothing make him appear portly, and the shape underneath the nose appears so dark that you can't see a mouth until you zoom in close and play the video slowly over and over again. There might still be a moustache there, but it could just as easily be a clean shaven mouth with so much shadow and pixellation that it doesn't resemble one, at least in a still frame.

I wonder whether the common first impression of a middle aged, moustached man informs the way we hear the audio of his voice too, and it's subsequently difficult to shake that first impression.

I think it's important to note (and correct me if I'm wrong) that sketch #1 was a composite of various witness descriptions; sketch #2 is a sketch from a single particular person.

I feel that many people looked at that initial phone picture and started calling in to say they'd seen a portly bearded man here, an overweight man with a moustache in a hunting cap there, etc. I think that these sorts of descriptions were probably prioritised because they seem to match what you see in the phone picture before studying it (particularly two years before having the video to study), and so many tips with a similar description came in.

I feel that the second sketch probably got overlooked because it doesn't seem to resemble the phone picture and video. But under all those layers, with that amount of pixellation, it's impossible to say that it does or doesn't resemble the person.

<modsnip - not an approved source>

For what it's worth, too, I believe the age description of "18 - 40, but may look younger than his age" suggests that LE believe they're looking for someone in the younger side of that age range. Up to 40 years old is in there to not rule out anyone who happens to look young, but witnesses saw someone who looked young, and LE have reason to believe it.

My gut feeling is that they spent two years looking for a middle aged portly phantom because that was the first impression from the video; early this year they had an "ah-hah" moment and realised that someone was considered but dismissed early on, potentially with a motive (however warped and psychotic that might be), and it had been staring them in the face all along. Maybe if they'd been quicker to suspect the person in sketch 2, they could have pressured their friends and family, and the killer would have been easier to break in the interview room. Now it's over 2 years on and the killer will assume the police have a scant amount of evidence, so witnesses coming forward before the arrest is much more important than it would have been back then.

As I said, just my opinion.

Sorry for the long post!

yeah, if bbp is to be believed about the initial id, something is way wrong with the April flip.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
238
Guests online
1,285
Total visitors
1,523

Forum statistics

Threads
599,549
Messages
18,096,478
Members
230,876
Latest member
Joshuasaunt
Back
Top