Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #117

[bradfordsleuth]

Has LE ever confirmed that the girls texted about a "creepy guy"? I saw online where Libby's grandma answered "yes" when someone asked if the girls had mentioned him. I don't recall if authorities talked about it.
I'd be interested to know what time that "creepy guy" text came through in relation to the video of BG. I know Abby's pic on the bridge was at 2:07. Has LE ever said what time the video of BG was taken?
I too am puzzled why LE can't release more of BG walking on the bridge unless maybe that's all they have. Maybe the rest is just the audio.

Quoted BBM

I have always thought that before the publicized video starts he is doing something very significant that prompted Libby to film him and this is one thing that LE is keeping 'close to the vest' and the reason why they won't release more.

Its possible he was urinating over the side of the bridge, or I have even wondered if he had 'hidden' himself beneath the bridge on the steel support below and came up from there. In one You Tube video, the person demonstrates that it is possible to lower yourself to fit in between the rail ties and sit on a 'ledge' below and stay hidden.

This would certainly be alarming to two girls who are trying to cross a dangerous bridge with rotting boards....to see a man hiding below them as they walk along.

LE has never confirmed the 'creepy guy' comment.

JMO and more speculation

 

[sunshineray]

Does anyone know, can we link Truth Tellers site? They have some info that I've been trying to find elsewhere. Libby's grandma was interviewed saying when she got to the trails to look for the girls there were a few kids she knew, from going to school with Libby, under the bridge. Anyone know if this is possibly a transcript of a GH interview? TIA

 

[bradfordsleuth]

What would LE hope to learn from Etter's autopsy that would be helpful in Delphi's case?

Just throwing out some ideas:

Which hand he used to shoot himself in the head (maybe wounds inflicted on the girls indicate right or left handedness and can be used to rule Etter out?)
DNA results?
Shoe size/type?
Scars on his body? (Maybe one of the girls injured the killer significantly in a place that LE knows about based on what they heard on the audio?)

JMO and thoughts

 

[sleuther0192837465]

Just throwing out some ideas:

Which hand he used to shoot himself in the head (maybe wounds inflicted on the girls indicate right or left handedness and can be used to rule Etter out?)
DNA results?
Shoe size/type?
Scars on his body? (Maybe one of the girls injured the killer significantly in a place that LE knows about based on what they heard on the audio?)

JMO and thoughts

I feel like we are having a very very good discussion here today!! I’m impressed! No wild, out there theories, just a good group of people really focusing on facts & simple explanations of what MAY have transpired that day! I’ve missed this I have renewed hope that BG is going to be caught. I mean, just look back & see how clear & precise we are in what we’re collectively putting together! I have been put to the test today & feel like I got a work out keeping things in line with what little facts we do have! Very productive IMOO @pearl said it best earlier in the thread & I have to agree!

 

[sleuther0192837465]

Does anyone know, can we link Truth Tellers site? They have some info that I've been trying to find elsewhere. Libby's grandma was interviewed saying when she got to the trails to look for the girls there were a few kids she knew, from going to school with Libby, under the bridge. Anyone know if this is possibly a transcript of a GH interview? TIA

I’m not sure :/ I don’t think that is considered MSM, it is probably a blog? JMOO

 

[MingyMoo]

dbm

 

[Falling Down]

I assume you are referring to why would the murderer(s) go south, via the railbed? If so, it is entirely possible they knew the home at the end of the private drive was not occupied. That affords them relatively safe access to that property and a heavily wooded area to the southeast, culminating in a short stretch of wooded area to route 200.

That gets them away from the usual trails, the bridge, the creek, the entrance to the trails, the cemetery, all those points that seem obvious to search.

The route south through the woods gives the killer(s) immediate removal from what they may have determined to be the most likely places to be detected.

If you refer to a possible Bridge Creek escape, that would be an excellent way to escape detection, be picked up on the highway, and get out. If a killer is already wet, walking out through a stream, or in and out of a stream, would be a non issue.

carry on

When I drove 200 to get out of town, after spending few hours there, I slowed down and took note of the old railroad RoW. North of 200 it's terribly overgrown
and had standing water in it. It's impassible the further away you get from the bridge, and the closer you get to 200. Someone walking along there would have to be on the farm land in order to walk to 200.

Then there's the question of a vehicle, one parked along 200 would have been seen line-of-sight from the surrounding area, and there would have been many cars pass a vehicle parked along there during the hours in question. 200 is the main county road to get to Delphi from the East, I used it to get into town after driving 300 to 425. On 200 and 625 there are residential properties, and on 200 there is a machine shop close to the old RoW in question, as well as a church.

JMO

 

[Falling Down]

I'm inclined to think Libby was taking snapchat photos and that the photo of Abby on the bridge was indeed a snapchat photo. That makes sense. But a video was likely recorded separately as a video, not using the snapchat app. Who was the first person to call these the 'snapchat murders?' Was it the media? I cannot recall if LE ever coined that phrase??

The Sun out of the UK used the terms Snapchat Murders and Snapchat Killer.

 

[Falling Down]

Feb. 13th online post, some older info about the murders and investigation interspersed with newer info, keep in mind this is pre-April 2019 press conference:

https://www.investigationdiscovery....the-right-person-in-investigation-of-delphi-s

 

[cryssyx3]

Kelsi did an interview on crawlspace, which is another podcast from the Missing Maura Murray guys. I believe it came out today.


a few small interesting tidbits I gathered so far:

when asked about playing the audio for people who haven't heard of the case she says "when my sister, I think she kind of first realized that there was somebody a little creepy behind her, she started recording on her cellphone and actually got a small clip of the guy that killed them in the video." (the small clip part stuck out to me. I don't know if it was specifically audio or video, but I got the impression there's not much more to release.) *he would have to be younger and stronger to over power Libby.

confident NSG is more accurate but could be in the middle of both sketches, "a sketch isn't a picture..."

when asked if he's local, "I think that he is very close to us, I don't know if that's in Delphi like, he could be my neighbor maybe, but he could be an hour away and still be local to Delphi."

"so the people that end up in the media and the people that get the attention are people that do look a lot like the sketch but it's just somebody that the media grabs onto and kinda rolls with to bring attention to the case. so they're never actually suspects they're actually just persons of interest that have been turned in as a tip and then posted as a side by side online."

4000 people in Delphi, "which is what's really crazy about the part of him being local is we probably talk to him every single day and we're not connecting him to it. we're not realizing that he's the person and it could be that he's the best person in the world to us and that the person he puts on to us and that fake identity that he's giving us is not the same person he was in that moment."

her opinion, "the fact he's never done this before is impossible to me" ... "I cannot believe he's never done this before and he hasn't don't it again or won't do it again" ... "I have a hard time even believing it was his last one."

that's as far as I got so far.

 

[southernswede]

Quoted BBM

I have always thought that before the publicized video starts he is doing something very significant that prompted Libby to film him and this is one thing that LE is keeping 'close to the vest' and the reason why they won't release more.

Its possible he was urinating over the side of the bridge, or I have even wondered if he had 'hidden' himself beneath the bridge on the steel support below and came up from there. In one You Tube video, the person demonstrates that it is possible to lower yourself to fit in between the rail ties and sit on a 'ledge' below and stay hidden.

This would certainly be alarming to two girls who are trying to cross a dangerous bridge with rotting boards....to see a man hiding below them as they walk along.

LE has never confirmed the 'creepy guy' comment.

JMO and more speculation

Wow!! I literally got the chills reading this. I never thought of him doing something significant to get their attention but it totally makes sense.

 

[southernswede]

Feb. 13th online post, some older info about the murders and investigation interspersed with newer info, keep in mind this is pre-April 2019 press conference:

https://www.investigationdiscovery....the-right-person-in-investigation-of-delphi-s

I think you posted a video las

I understand the photo she took of Abby was uploaded to SC. But I can’t find a statement directly from LE saying the audio/video of BG specifically was uploaded to SC. Do you have a link? I can’t find one anywhere. Because if Libby did, others would have been able to view it, correct? MOO

Yes, her friends on SC would have been able to see it. If she did upload to SC it's only available to view for 24 hrs.

 

[HockeyMom330]

Think of this senario. What if BG's choice of coercion was a knife. All he'd have to do is grab one of the girls, hold the knife on her threateningly and speak his orders. I believe both Abby or Libby would have obeyed for fear their friend would be hurt. They loved each other.

I believe you are right in your speculation, but what I wonder is how BG knew/assumed that the girls would react in that way. Unless he knew them personally, and understood their friendship, I don't think he could have been certain that they would stick together. His attack was very risky in the sense that the girls could have tried to run in opposite directions. In that situation he wouldn't be able to control them both, even with a knife. One girl could have gotten away and called for help.

 

[somequestions]

I'd really like if you'd elaborate, be more specific, as to what you think Libby saw in his movements, but even more so, your theory of the killer coming in from the south. How would he be on the bridge in that video if he was already on the southeast side of the bridge?

When I first became aware of this case, and that's not too long ago, my first escape route theory that made sense to me was south along the abandoned railroad to W 200 N. Easily could have been picked up by someone, and/or parked at the Baptist Church.

Some have said that rail bed would be too overgrown, or swampy. I have a hobby that puts me in to old road beds. Full of thickets, thorns, trees, vines, and at times swampy. That never kept me from going through

Another thought, someone posted LE had only ever mentioned one request from the public asking about sighting of a person, and that was if anyone saw someone walking along Rt. 25. Bridge Creek gives great access to the bridge and surrounding area. PLUS, affords a water escape to confound potential tracking dogs.

The south route does afford the opportunity to vacate the area swiftly.

Ok, but this is going to be a long explanation that requires you to remember some key points. And this is just my opinion. Remember these 4 points when reading my theories.

1. One person would not be afraid of another person unless they had seen that person close-up. So this theory assumes that at some point the bridge guy crossed paths with the girls.

2. Someone posted a youtube video showing that it takes approximately 10 minutes to walk from the Freedom Bridge to the Monon High Bridge. From the spot where Kelsi dropped off Abby and Libby it takes 4 minutes to walk straight to the Monon High Bridge.

3. The distance Liberty German eventually did end up filming the bridge guy was far enough away that no one could i.d. him, even with an enhanced close-up. I think most people are in agreement on this point.

4. Kelsi German dropped the girls off at around 1:30-1:40pm. Snapchat photo of Abigail Williams on the bridge has a time stamp of 2:07pm with no bridge guy in background. The Liberty German video of this bridge guy is AFTER the Snapchat photo.

The main question I had concerned what the girls were doing until 2:07 pm if it only takes 4 minutes to walk to the Monon High Bridge? The next question is what was the killer doing that, if they were playing around on the trail, he did not some how "catch up" to them while they were not moving. I think that is the problem with most of the re-creations of the case. They forget the period of time Libby and Abby were standing still not moving towards the Monon High Bridge.

Theory #1: The girls did walk all the way down to the Monon High Bridge and crossed it, and then this man appears on the bridge coming across. But then why would Libby film him since she has not already seen him before so he could present himself as a threat? She filmed him from far away. Is the place so isolated that seeing an adult crossing the Monon High Bridge sets off red flags?

Theory #2: The killer is walking back towards the drop off spot or catches up and passes Libby and Abby as they are walking towards the Monon High Bridge. He says something or looks at them strange. The girls continue on to the Monon High Bridge. What did the killer do? Stop and sit down for the next 20 minutes and then decide to go and kidnap the girls? He obviously did not follow directly behind Abby or he would have been seen in the Snapchat photo. And he obviously is not very smart when it comes to be videotaped since he ended up being videotaped by Liberty German later.

Theory #3: The killer arrived before the girls coming from either the Freedom Bridge, drop-off point, or maybe even the cemetery. He is already on the southeast side when Libby and Abby cross the bridge and they see him. He passes. Then he starts back to the north end and realizes looking down the trail that no one is coming. So he turns around on the bridge to go back towards Libby and Abby. Libby videotapes him when she sees this odd movement.

I think Theory #3 makes the most sense. I will admit, however, that it does not prove where the bridge guy came from to begin with. I am guessing he came up N 625 W. Then he left the same way. But I admit that is a pure guess that cannot be proven. Is it even possible?

But I think the theory that the killer was already on the southeast side of the bridge is a strong theory based on my 4 points above. I am interested in reading any other theories about how others think the scenario of Liberty German and Abigail Williams crossing paths with this man may have happened that day.

I know some youtubers have put out scenarios, but I think it is important to remember the missing time. If Kelsi dropped the girls off at 1:40(approximately) and the Snapchat photo was taken at 2:07pm and it only takes 4 minutes to walk directly to the Monon High Bridge, what were the girls doing during that time(the extra 23 minutes)? And where was the killer during those 23 minutes if we assume a person would not be afraid of another person if they had not met them up close beforehand?

 

[HockeyMom330]

I think you make valid points. It's difficult to place a person capable of murdering two girls, on the scene, simply at random. I've also never personally believed BG stalked the park waiting for a kill.

But I've also had trouble buying that he has a premeditated "kill kit" or other various implements stuffed onto his person. I know it looks that way, but why would he enter the trail so obviously bogged down if he planned the murder, and the murder location, which included getting them across a creek, when instead he could have carried just enough to control the girls and have the rest waiting at the kill site?

I actually see him having a stuffed jacket more as a sign this was NOT well-planned out.

In my car right now I have a knife, jumper cables, and a store-bought emergency kit that includes rope, tape, zip ties, plastic ponchos, latex gloves, bandages, wound wrap, scissors, etc. I think that's enough material at hand to shove into a couple pockets and commit a crime with little to no foresight.

I also have trouble believing for certain that he had a kill kit in his jacket. If he did it would certainly suggest an attack was premeditated. I wouldn't rule out the possibility, but I'm not married to the idea either. If indeed his jacket was stuffed, it could have been with ordinary/innocent items, such as car keys, wallet, phone, gloves, sunglasses, cigarettes, snacks, water bottle… He may also have been wearing multiple layers of clothing for innocent reasons as the weather was not quite warm but not quite cold that day.

 

[HockeyMom330]

That’s a damn good question!
ETA: You’d think if they were looking for tattoos or moles or something, that would have been mentioned in BG’s suspect description...hmmm....MOO

Maybe they wanted to look at his teeth for a bite mark pattern?

 

[sleuther0192837465]

Maybe they wanted to look at his teeth for a bite mark pattern?

Oh my...that is possible...those poor girls

 

[sleuther0192837465]

I think you posted a video las

Yes, her friends on SC would have been able to see it. If she did upload to SC it's only available to view for 24 hrs.

Yes, and many many more people would know exactly what is on that recording. I find it extremely hard to believe none of the people that would have seen it have spoken out about it. That is why I do not believe she uploaded it SC. MOO

 

[Rossymom]

What would LE hope to learn from Etter's autopsy that would be helpful in Delphi's case?

Well, according to this interview with Boone County Sheriff, the stand-off was over six hours long. Perhaps Etter carried on a conversation with officers and the Delphi crime came up? Six hours is a long time to sit out in the sun. Just a wondering thought.
Sheriff who led standoff worries about officers

 

[sleuther0192837465]

Ok, but this is going to be a long explanation that requires you to remember some key points. And this is just my opinion. Remember these 4 points when reading my theories.

1. One person would not be afraid of another person unless they had seen that person close-up. So this theory assumes that at some point the bridge guy crossed paths with the girls.

2. Someone posted a youtube video showing that it takes approximately 10 minutes to walk from the Freedom Bridge to the Monon High Bridge. From the spot where Kelsi dropped off Abby and Libby it takes 4 minutes to walk straight to the Monon High Bridge.

3. The distance Liberty German eventually did end up filming the bridge guy was far enough away that no one could i.d. him, even with an enhanced close-up. I think most people are in agreement on this point.

4. Kelsi German dropped the girls off at around 1:30-1:40pm. Snapchat photo of Abigail Williams on the bridge has a time stamp of 2:07pm with no bridge guy in background. The Liberty German video of this bridge guy is AFTER the Snapchat photo.

The main question I had concerned what the girls were doing until 2:07 pm if it only takes 4 minutes to walk to the Monon High Bridge? The next question is what was the killer doing that, if they were playing around on the trail, he did not some how "catch up" to them while they were not moving. I think that is the problem with most of the re-creations of the case. They forget the period of time Libby and Abby were standing still not moving towards the Monon High Bridge.

Theory #1: The girls did walk all the way down to the Monon High Bridge and crossed it, and then this man appears on the bridge coming across. But then why would Libby film him since she has not already seen him before so he could present himself as a threat? She filmed him from far away. Is the place so isolated that seeing an adult crossing the Monon High Bridge sets off red flags?

Theory #2: The killer is walking back towards the drop off spot or catches up and passes Libby and Abby as they are walking towards the Monon High Bridge. He says something or looks at them strange. The girls continue on to the Monon High Bridge. What did the killer do? Stop and sit down for the next 20 minutes and then decide to go and kidnap the girls? He obviously did not follow directly behind Abby or he would have been seen in the Snapchat photo. And he obviously is not very smart when it comes to be videotaped since he ended up being videotaped by Liberty German later.

Theory #3: The killer arrived before the girls coming from either the Freedom Bridge, drop-off point, or maybe even the cemetery. He is already on the southeast side when Libby and Abby cross the bridge and they see him. He passes. Then he starts back to the north end and realizes looking down the trail that no one is coming. So he turns around on the bridge to go back towards Libby and Abby. Libby videotapes him when she sees this odd movement.

I think Theory #3 makes the most sense. I will admit, however, that it does not prove where the bridge guy came from to begin with. I am guessing he came up N 625 W. Then he left the same way. But I admit that is a pure guess that cannot be proven. Is it even possible?

But I think the theory that the killer was already on the southeast side of the bridge is a strong theory based on my 4 points above. I am interested in reading any other theories about how others think the scenario of Liberty German and Abigail Williams crossing paths with this man may have happened that day.

I know some youtubers have put out scenarios, but I think it is important to remember the missing time. If Kelsi dropped the girls off at 1:40(approximately) and the Snapchat photo was taken at 2:07pm and it only takes 4 minutes to walk directly to the Monon High Bridge, what were the girls doing during that time(the extra 23 minutes)? And where was the killer during those 23 minutes if we assume a person would not be afraid of another person if they had not met them up close beforehand?

Very thorough & just the fact that you included the “missing” 23 mins has really got my attention.
IIRC BP & MP have both stated the girls were at the trails/bridge taking photos. We must consider that they were stopping along the way, Libby was taking photos & the girls were talking. Let’s assume they were also checking Libby’s phone, maybe texting friends, checking SM, looking at memes, etc. We need to also consider that they are not walking at a brisk pace. They are leisurely walking toward the bridge. This is when I believe BG either saw them or he could hear them. I think he hid out of view & once they got closer, he came out of the woods...that in itself would be creepy to me...maybe it startled the girls seeing him coming out of the woods? (I believe he was already at those trails prior to the girls arriving.) He walks by them & waits until the girls are at the other end. The girls took their time crossing the bridge as Abby is trying to be cautious due to the condition of the bridge. Libby, I think, is probably use to it & has no issues crossing at a decent pace, so she is walking ahead of Abby, taking photos. The girls reach the end & BG is already coming towards them...he makes his move...
IDK where the heck he parked his vehicle, IDK where he exited the trails but I am 100% certain he was at those trails prior to the girls, waiting for the most vulnerable of victims...
Not as thorough as your well thought out post, but I hope it makes sense. All just my own thoughts, right or wrong. MOO