Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #120

[curiousgene]

Whistler Woods - NICHES Land Trust

Thank you! Had been looking for information on who Mary I Gerard was

Whistler Woods - NICHES Land Trust

Thank you! I had been looking for information on who Mary I. Gerard was.

 

[Ozoner]

It's hard to imagine that after this amount of time the killer would not be exposed if he were actually a Delphi resident. In the April 2019 news conference, Carter said, "We also believe this person is from Delphi- currently, or has previously lived here, visits Delphi on a regular basis, or works here." To me it would seem more reasonable, after 3 years, that BG is not from Delphi but instead had familiarity with the area. Perhaps he drove through there regularly, perhaps found a nice little out of the way place to rest, eat a sandwich, have a wee, and maybe, just maybe, stalk people. Being from out of town could also explain why he hasn't been turned in - maybe those around him just aren't up to speed on the case.

BG was wearing an oversized parka, which was apparently concealing a kill kit. It may be that his attire and the bulk of his paraphernalia affected his appearance, including his posture and gait, to such an extent that he is virtually unrecognizable.

 

[TL4S]

I totally agree with you. Your thoughts are just another reason about six months ago I decided there was no way BG’s plan was to lead the girls across the creek. It would be crazy to plan to cross a large creek in February in Indiana for what he probably was planning to do to the girls. I think he was leading them somewhere on the side of the bridge where they were accosted...that small deer shack, an empty house, some other spot in the woods...and the girl’s tried to run and they ran across the creek. He caught them and killed them in a rage which is why it was all over so quickly.
My scenario presents problems too though.
1) Even if BG did not plan to cross the creek and parked at the CPS building, the fact is he DID cross the creek, so, like you said, he had to walk back to his car with muddy, wet clothes but no one seemed to notice that. (Though I guess it’s possible somebody did notice but that’s just something else LE is not talking about)
2) If BG did plan to take them across the creek, then I think he was probably parked at the cemetery. It’s closer, more hidden. In fact if he was parked at the cemetery maybe his original plan was to take them across the creek and up to his car but the girl’s resisted at some point and he killed them.
I think it’s possible LE doesn’t know for sure which one of these are correct. They aren’t sure still where the killer parked though they seem to be leaning toward the old CPS building.
I wish I thought LE had a clearer picture of things but frankly I think they are as confused as we are.
As always, just my thoughts.

Yes, I'm inline with your thoughts. The car presents a problem because we don't know if it was even connected to BG. My mind consistently runs two scenarios: car is related, or car is not.

If BG parked at the CPS lot with no real plan in place, and the murders, creek crossing, etc. occurred impulsively, than maybe he found himself standing there thinking, "Crap, now what?"

Riley has said BG had to know where to cross the creek, but that doesn't definitively mean he purposefully led the girls across. Maybe he crossed elsewhere on his way out. skibaboo's map shows police road blocks from the days following the murder. W 300 N rd was blocked just north of the CPS lot, and the N 625 W (the road that runs south from the bridge) was blocked at the W 200 N intersection. That was likely due to the ongoing investigation, but maybe there's a reason they wanted to keep people out of that south end. Maybe they thought BG recrossed the creek and took the woods southeasterly, circling back north near the hwy to get back to his car? He'd be out of sight nearly the entire way. I don't know how likely that is, but I'm throwing it out there. They did ask about any hitchhikers early on.

Personally, I believe the car is connected to BG. DC might sound confused, but I don't think he is. I think BG parked at CPS lot and followed the girls on the trail starting at that 501 trail sign DC talks about, and LE knows it. I'm hopeful LE has a full picture.

 

[What if...]

What you say may be true. However, I think the explanation is simpler. I think LE saw the video from Libby's phone and decided that they were looking for a middle-aged man. For that reason, they ignored the sketch of the younger person (whom we've been calling NBG). After more careful review of the video in conjunction with the FBI profile of the perp, they realized that they had screwed the pooch by ignoring the younger unknown suspect. I think Carter is angry at himself and his people for the blunder, which helped the real perp go undetected for two years.

I know the simplest answer is the correct answer more often than not, but unless the OBG has been identified, LE’s statements just don’t make any sense to me...

LE presented a new sketch and simultaneously told the public to disregard the first sketch all together. They also stated that the two sketches ARE NOT of the same person. So, unless OBG has been identified, why would they just decide to stop pursuing that lead all together? If not identified, I can’t imagine that they would just decide that they were no longer interested in finding out who this person is - as a potential witness if nothing else! They very easily could have thrown out the second sketch and simply state that they’re seeking information on both. Bottom line, IMO, SOMETHING led LE to not only pursue the NBG, but to also eliminate the need for information on OBG. I’m always open to new theories, but right now, this is the only one that makes sense to me...

I can imagine several scenarios that would lead to changing their minds about who the primary suspect may be, but I can only think of one that would remove OBG from their radar all together.

While on the subject of OBG vs NBG, I’ll also add that, assuming LE knows that they are in fact two different people, then I think we need to re-evaluate our assumption that the murders occurred in a very short period of time. NBG sketch was provided by one witness that “saw something they felt they should report” - as far as I know, the when and what of what they saw has never been disclosed to the public.
MOO....

 

[What if...]

Yes, I'm inline with your thoughts. The car presents a problem because we don't know if it was even connected to BG. My mind consistently runs two scenarios: car is related, or car is not.

If BG parked at the CPS lot with no real plan in place, and the murders, creek crossing, etc. occurred impulsively, than maybe he found himself standing there thinking, "Crap, now what?"

Riley has said BG had to know where to cross the creek, but that doesn't definitively mean he purposefully led the girls across. Maybe he crossed elsewhere on his way out. skibaboo's map shows police road blocks from the days following the murder. W 300 N rd was blocked just north of the CPS lot, and the N 625 W (the road that runs south from the bridge) was blocked at the W 200 N intersection. That was likely due to the ongoing investigation, but maybe there's a reason they wanted to keep people out of that south end. Maybe they thought BG recrossed the creek and took the woods southeasterly, circling back north near the hwy to get back to his car? He'd be out of sight nearly the entire way. I don't know how likely that is, but I'm throwing it out there. They did ask about any hitchhikers early on.

Personally, I believe the car is connected to BG. DC might sound confused, but I don't think he is. I think BG parked at CPS lot and followed the girls on the trail starting at that 501 trail sign DC talks about, and LE knows it. I'm hopeful LE has a full picture.

Yes, I'm inline with your thoughts. The car presents a problem because we don't know if it was even connected to BG. My mind consistently runs two scenarios: car is related, or car is not.

If BG parked at the CPS lot with no real plan in place, and the murders, creek crossing, etc. occurred impulsively, than maybe he found himself standing there thinking, "Crap, now what?"

Riley has said BG had to know where to cross the creek, but that doesn't definitively mean he purposefully led the girls across. Maybe he crossed elsewhere on his way out. skibaboo's map shows police road blocks from the days following the murder. W 300 N rd was blocked just north of the CPS lot, and the N 625 W (the road that runs south from the bridge) was blocked at the W 200 N intersection. That was likely due to the ongoing investigation, but maybe there's a reason they wanted to keep people out of that south end. Maybe they thought BG recrossed the creek and took the woods southeasterly, circling back north near the hwy to get back to his car? He'd be out of sight nearly the entire way. I don't know how likely that is, but I'm throwing it out there. They did ask about any hitchhikers early on.

Personally, I believe the car is connected to BG. DC might sound confused, but I don't think he is. I think BG parked at CPS lot and followed the girls on the trail starting at that 501 trail sign DC talks about, and LE knows it. I'm hopeful LE has a full picture.

Not to sound like a broken record, but IF OBG has been identified, LE may have been looking for confirmation of his being there.... perhaps the car was his??

 

[TL4S]

I know the simplest answer is the correct answer more often than not, but unless the OBG has been identified, LE’s statements just don’t make any sense to me...

LE presented a new sketch and simultaneously told the public to disregard the first sketch all together. They also stated that the two sketches ARE NOT of the same person. So, unless OBG has been identified, why would they just decide to stop pursuing that lead all together? If not identified, I can’t imagine that they would just decide that they were no longer interested in finding out who this person is - as a potential witness if nothing else! They very easily could have thrown out the second sketch and simply state that they’re seeking information on both. Bottom line, IMO, SOMETHING led LE to not only pursue the NBG, but to also eliminate the need for information on OBG. I’m always open to new theories, but right now, this is the only one that makes sense to me...

I can imagine several scenarios that would lead to changing their minds about who the primary suspect may be, but I can only think of one that would remove OBG from their radar all together.

While on the subject of OBG vs NBG, I’ll also add that, assuming LE knows that they are in fact two different people, then I think we need to re-evaluate our assumption that the murders occurred in a very short period of time. NBG sketch was provided by one witness that “saw something they felt they should report” - as far as I know, the when and what of what they saw has never been disclosed to the public.
MOO....

I get the impression that both sketches were produced though witness statements. Height and weight could have been a combination of witnesses and the video, but one thing that never changed in the suspect description is the hair color. Reddish brown. You certainly can't ascertain that from the video, IMO, so either there was agreement on that feature with the witnesses, or there's hair evidence from the crime scene. For whatever reason, LE decided to go with the younger age range last April, but they don't entirely discount either sketch because he could ultimately look like something in between (or neither, IMO).

 

[What if...]

I get the impression that both sketches were produced though witness statements. Height and weight could have been a combination of witnesses and the video, but one thing that never changed in the suspect description is the hair color. Reddish brown. You certainly can't ascertain that from the video, IMO, so either there was agreement on that feature with the witnesses, or there's hair evidence from the crime scene. For whatever reason, LE decided to go with the younger age range last April, but they don't entirely discount either sketch because he could ultimately look like something in between (or neither, IMO).

I’m going with hair found at the crime scene due to the fact LE has stated the sketches are of two different people. If LE is being truthful that the sketches ARE NOT of the same people, then the witnesses that saw OBG and contributed to that sketch didn’t see NBG at all.

 

[TL4S]

I’m going with hair found at the crime scene due to the fact LE has stated the sketches are of two different people. If LE is being truthful that the sketches ARE NOT of the same people, then the witnesses that saw OBG and contributed to that sketch didn’t see NBG at all.

Yes, me, too. I've always thought if he had a hat on (which I think he did), there's a good likelihood it would fall off in a struggle. I think he picked it up before he left, but maybe some hair was left behind. And yes, their statements about the sketches not being the same person, but BG will maybe look like a combination of the two is confusing. It leads me to believe they don't know who he is, or even if the person(s) witnesses saw is the same. It's frustrating.

 

[Kudzuu]

The sign in question the DC was talking about is the 501 trail sign. It simply says Mary I. Gerard Nature Reserve with an arrow, 501 steps and at one point Monon High Bridge with an arrow. I believe you are talking about the sign at the entrance to the trails.

Sorry for the confusion. I just used the picture from an article posted.

 

[Kudzuu]

Not to me...but to each his or her own.

your name is Sunshineray!! Naturally you'd see the bright side!

 

[What if...]

Yes, me, too. I've always thought if he had a hat on (which I think he did), there's a good likelihood it would fall off in a struggle. I think he picked it up before he left, but maybe some hair was left behind. And yes, their statements about the sketches not being the same person, but BG will maybe look like a combination of the two is confusing. It leads me to believe they don't know who he is, or even if the person(s) witnesses saw is the same. It's frustrating.

I agree, the “May actually look like a combination of the two” statement was very odd, but I think that may have just been a personal thought that kind of slipped out. I think most of the folks that have been on this thread would agree that the OBG sketch is a better match to what we believe we’re seeing in the video. I’m sure that part of that is due to our minds spending two years tying the OBG sketch to the video images, but I also think that the OBG sketch matches up closer to what we expect this type of perp to look like. I think DC may have still been struggling with some of the same....
MOO....

 

[JnRyan]

BG was wearing an oversized parka, which was apparently concealing a kill kit. It may be that his attire and the bulk of his paraphernalia affected his appearance, including his posture and gait, to such an extent that he is virtually unrecognizable.

Not to mention he was walking on those railroad ties. I doubt if I would recognize someone's gait on that bridge. As far as how swung his arms or moved his upper body is also affected by that plus his hands appear to be his pockets.

 

[JnRyan]

It's hard to imagine that after this amount of time the killer would not be exposed if he were actually a Delphi resident. In the April 2019 news conference, Carter said, "We also believe this person is from Delphi- currently, or has previously lived here, visits Delphi on a regular basis, or works here." To me it would seem more reasonable, after 3 years, that BG is not from Delphi but instead had familiarity with the area. Perhaps he drove through there regularly, perhaps found a nice little out of the way place to rest, eat a sandwich, have a wee, and maybe, just maybe, stalk people. Being from out of town could also explain why he hasn't been turned in - maybe those around him just aren't up to speed on the case.

Yes, I can imagine if this guy lives in Chicago IL, Louisville KY or Indianapolis IN those around him might dismiss him as living too far away. And with over 2 years before the new sketch comes out - assuming that it is the killer - it is very possible no one remembers if he was absent that day or not.

 

[Charlot123]

I totally agree that something went awry early on. I’m not quite sure what exactly sent them down the wrong path in the investigation, but I can only imagine the level of frustration felt by LE (& the victims families), when they realized they had potentially been chasing all of the wrong leads for two years!

I wouldn’t say those two years were wasted by any means. They’ve followed and eliminated thousands of leads, I’m sure that every piece of evidence they could come up with has been analyzed, and I would think that, even if they don’t have a specific POI, their list of potential suspects is much shorter than when they started. However, at least on the surface, it appears they’ve spent two very crucial years chasing the wrong rabbit.
My own opinion here, but I think they’ve identified the person in the original sketch. I think that when they figured out who it was, OBG confessed to being there that day, but is claiming to have been there for other nefarious reasons and didn’t want it to be known. IF THAT’S THE CASE, then OBG may have provided information of what HE saw on the trails that day, and that information may have added additional weight to the witness statement provided by the witness that saw NBG doing “something suspicious”.
This would explain why the sketch of OBG is now “secondary”. Maybe LE still can’t rule him out completely in regards to participating in some manner, but they no longer need information from the public to identify him.
It’s just a guess on my part, but when I consider this possibility, listening to that presser makes a lot more sense to me.
MOO....

They probably identified the person in the original sketch...

And he probably provided an alibi, and after all, nothing connects him with the murders except for being in the back of Libby’s video.

But do you remember how at the beginning, they begged the BG to come forward? As a person who might have seen something?

If you are right and BG is now a witness, by keeping silent for two years in the case of a brutal murder of two teenage girls, he might have contributed to today’s dismal results. He is likely not guilty legally, but morally, he is culpable. And probably, he has something to answer for, I don’t know how and when. But you know, karma...

 

[Charlot123]

Thank you! Had been looking for information on who Mary I Gerard was

Thank you! I had been looking for information on who Mary I. Gerard was.

You know what is interesting? Her family tree is open. It is surprising how many people in that line died without having kids. Her siblings, her kid, and even generation above. And even on the side lines. She was a Timmons, and her son looked (slightly) like a darker male version of Libby, so I thought, maybe they were related? 2nd uncle or so? But he was an only child, and his aunts and uncles left no kids. (((

 

[JnRyan]

I get the impression that both sketches were produced though witness statements. Height and weight could have been a combination of witnesses and the video, but one thing that never changed in the suspect description is the hair color. Reddish brown. You certainly can't ascertain that from the video, IMO, so either there was agreement on that feature with the witnesses, or there's hair evidence from the crime scene. For whatever reason, LE decided to go with the younger age range last April, but they don't entirely discount either sketch because he could ultimately look like something in between (or neither, IMO).

These sketches are unique sketches in the sense of how they were arrived at by LE. Normally we in the public are provided with a sketch with someone directly tied to the crime. For example, when a serial killer/rapist is operating in a area and an intended victim escapes and provides LE with a description. Or a description of a person fleeing a shooting scene with a gun in their hand. We don't have that here. LE probably canvassed everyone they could identify as being on the trails that day and questioned about who they saw on the trails and then those persons were tracked down. Through this process LE had a name of almost everyone seen on the trails that day with the exception of maybe one or two individuals none of the others recognized and possibly had never seen before. It might have been something as simple as this is a guy we can't find and not necessarily someone seen walking off the bridge with the girls or standing over their bodies. The clothing connection is possible. But I was out on a local trail earlier this week the only clothing I can remember anyone wearing was a florescent yellow jacket worn by one guy and silver or gray jacket by another. That leaves about a half dozen to ten individuals out there by themselves and I couldn't even begin to describe what they were wearing. And it was said in few articles that this person was 'suspicious'? Unless he was close enough to them for someone to see his blue jeans were wet I don't get that.

I'm lacking some confidence in these sketches simply based on the process by LE may have used to come up with them. Don't get me wrong LE sounds like they put a lot of time and effort into this process and now we have SOMETHING. But there exists the possibility that no one has identified the killer and this sketch is merely an unidentified innocent user of the trail.

 

[Charlot123]

It's hard to imagine that after this amount of time the killer would not be exposed if he were actually a Delphi resident. In the April 2019 news conference, Carter said, "We also believe this person is from Delphi- currently, or has previously lived here, visits Delphi on a regular basis, or works here." To me it would seem more reasonable, after 3 years, that BG is not from Delphi but instead had familiarity with the area. Perhaps he drove through there regularly, perhaps found a nice little out of the way place to rest, eat a sandwich, have a wee, and maybe, just maybe, stalk people. Being from out of town could also explain why he hasn't been turned in - maybe those around him just aren't up to speed on the case.

Maybe he was turned in?
If I saw a neighbor looking and walking just like BG and being in IN around that time, I’d call a tip line. But they don’t call you back to report on the progress, right? They are not supposed to.
So maybe he was reported 5 times, but the LE are not following that lead? Or those leads?

 

[TL4S]

I agree, the “May actually look like a combination of the two” statement was very odd, but I think that may have just been a personal thought that kind of slipped out. I think most of the folks that have been on this thread would agree that the OBG sketch is a better match to what we believe we’re seeing in the video. I’m sure that part of that is due to our minds spending two years tying the OBG sketch to the video images, but I also think that the OBG sketch matches up closer to what we expect this type of perp to look like. I think DC may have still been struggling with some of the same....
MOO....

DC has made that statement multiple times, including as recently as January of this year (note video linked on page 1). He must believe it, and hopefully with reason.

Also of note in that video, he says they have a full picture of what happened - an "aerial snapshot" if you will. So I do think they maybe know which way BG came and left. There's glimmers of hope.

 

[Charlot123]

DC has made that statement multiple times, including as recently as January of this year (note video linked on page 1). He must believe it, and hopefully with reason.

Also of note in that video, he says they have a full picture of what happened - an "aerial snapshot" if you will. So I do think they maybe know which way BG came and left. There's glimmers of hope.

I think the main thing, they know the motive. I don’t. Can’t even imagine. Too gory.

But I think there might have been a couple of people involved, this is why they know everything, except for, “who”?

 

[Charlot123]

That's fair, but I still feel that if a creek crossing was part of the plan, he'd want to park somewhere he could get out quickly and unseen. Wet, muddy pants and shoes would be both noticeable and uncomfortable.

And if he didn't want his car connected to the crime scene, parking at trail parking, visible from Hoosier Heartland hwy and 300 rd (and maybe the security camera at the storage facility) wouldn't make sense, necessarily.

Of course, killing two girls doesn't make sense, either.

This is why I don’t think it was SA. Or else, someone very disorganized started a SA and someone very organized cleaned up after him.

But here is the part of DC’s rhetorics I don’t get. Several times he called the case “evil”. And then says, that the killer has conscience left? How?