Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #121

[catch_22]

That rapist guy is 6'3"? Bg is supposed to be around 5'8". I know that is just a guestimate, but I agree that someone 6'3" should almost certainly be eliminated.

It blows my mind that we can't even determine if that is his hair, or a hat/hood. I'm leaning towards it being like a camo hoodie. Hoodies generally have a seam right down the middle of the hood. I think this seam is what also looks like a "part" in his hair in some of the still shots.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

LE has said maybe somewhere between the two.

I’ve begun to question whether either sketch is relevant at all. It’s kinda ridiculous what LE is asking us to follow concerning them. If the sketches are important enough to release them, LE needs to believe in them. I’m not sure they do because of their changing stories on them.
Imagine if they were talking about something like the murder weapon. “Uh, the murder weapon was a lead pipe.” Then two years later “Uh, forget the lead pipe. The murder weapon was a rope.” Then a few months later “Uh, maybe not a real rope, maybe a rope tied to a lead pipe or a lead pipe wrapped in rope, or a rope coated in lead”.
For me, not a lot of confidence that LE knows what their talking about here. Just my thoughts.

 

[Kittybunny]

I thought of 'slope' as well, but 'grade' was more common with me.

You could well be right about 'embankment' being rare. A majority of the men I worked with probably knew it, but did not really use it.

I think, however, it is too pre-mature to say 99% would resort to 'hill'. We have a small sample, but two of us (you and I) know both the formal word and slang terms. Of course, knowing does not mean using.

In short, we might be able to add BG not having a construction trade, rail employee etc. to this list. I just wonder what most non road crew construction workers would use?

I would not say 'hill'. Rather, I would say 'embankment' or 'grade' and point if needed. I might then add "down there".

What about you?

Definitely hill. I think most people I know would do the same.

 

[Justice101]

Still following.

Sadly, I think this guy will have to murder again.. .and make a mistake this time, in order for him to be caught.

 

[MillerProg]

I’ve begun to question whether either sketch is relevant at all.

Same here. There seems to be a lot of indecisiveness surrounding the sketch, from law enforcement themselves. First there was the main sketch, then the unveiling of the new sketch with police saying all but erase the first one from your memory. Then there was a change in tone when they started doing interviews again after last years press conference, "I am pretty sure when we have an arrest, he will look like a combination of the two, almost if you placed one sketch on top of the other".

I grew up in a town that neighbors Delphi until I moved out at 19 to go to college, and stayed on the east coat after graduation. My aunt, uncle, and cousins live in Delphi and are very involved in the community, know the families. I'm new here so I assume town chatter isn't allowed, but I will just say from speaking with my family and friends in town, many seem to be concerned about the accuracy of the new sketch for a specific reason and are equally as confused.

Thank you to all who keep this case alive. I have read through almost every thread from the start while social distancing. It's heartwarming to see how much care and thirst for answers there is here. I've never been a big true crime follower outside of work, since what I do professionally involves tech/forensics, but I am interested and eager for news and movement in this case. Hits close to home.

 

[scapa]

Regarding the DNA/not-DNA, is there any indication that deliberate attempts were made to degrade it, or that the degree/amount of exposure to weather and time played a role? Or do we not know anything in particular about the extent or quality of DNA collected?

I've been away from the thread and can't recall the state of play with respect to this element of the case.

 

[minazoe]

do you really think the height is 100% accurate? maybe there is a mistake. I don't know. I feel like BG is a big guy.

are we no longer using sketch number one? how come sketch number one looks exactly like this bozo?

also how come BG looks nothing remotely like sketch #2

Im just asking.

mOO

 

[rosesfromangels]

do you really think the height is 100% accurate? maybe there is a mistake. I don't know. I feel like BG is a big guy.

are we no longer using sketch number one? how come sketch number one looks exactly like this bozo?

also how come BG looks nothing remotely like sketch #2

Im just asking.

mOO

All very good questions that we don't have answers to.
The only other speculation I can add is that perhaps sketch #2 might have been a witness, or known to have been on the trail that day and they wish him to come forward. Some people refuse to get involved, even if they know their help would have a big impact. I include BG's family and close friends in that.....at least one of them must know. All a bunch of cowards.

The telephone Tip Line is (844) 459-5786. Tips are also accepted by the Indiana State Police at (800) 382-7537, or by the Carroll County Sheriff's Department at (765) 564-2413.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[sunshineray]

That rapist guy is 6'3"? Bg is supposed to be around 5'8". I know that is just a guestimate, but I agree that someone 6'3" should almost certainly be eliminated.

It blows my mind that we can't even determine if that is his hair, or a hat/hood. I'm leaning towards it being like a camo hoodie. Hoodies generally have a seam right down the middle of the hood. I think this seam is what also looks like a "part" in his hair in some of the still shots.

I've always thought he had a hoodie on, just looks that way to me.

 

[sunshineray]

Regarding the DNA/not-DNA, is there any indication that deliberate attempts were made to degrade it, or that the degree/amount of exposure to weather and time played a role? Or do we not know anything in particular about the extent or quality of DNA collected?

I've been away from the thread and can't recall the state of play with respect to this element of the case.

Besides the RadarOline article Sheriff Leazenby did back in December 2019 about DNA being sent to Quantico for "DNA testing research", the only other two things that peeked my attention were one of the Podcasts that mentioned the cigarette butt found nearby the crime scene and Gray Hughes call-in interview with a local man who said LE only had touch DNA from one small area on one of the girl's sweatshirts.

 

[JnRyan]

I’ve begun to question whether either sketch is relevant at all. It’s kinda ridiculous what LE is asking us to follow concerning them. If the sketches are important enough to release them, LE needs to believe in them. I’m not sure they do because of their changing stories on them.
Imagine if they were talking about something like the murder weapon. “Uh, the murder weapon was a lead pipe.” Then two years later “Uh, forget the lead pipe. The murder weapon was a rope.” Then a few months later “Uh, maybe not a real rope, maybe a rope tied to a lead pipe or a lead pipe wrapped in rope, or a rope coated in lead”.
For me, not a lot of confidence that LE knows what their talking about here. Just my thoughts.

I suppose what bothers me about the sketches is what I believe the process was in arriving at either. In most cases a victim who survives provides a description or a witness sees the person commit the crime or sees them leaving the scene immediately afterwards. Really little or no process. IOW, did you see the offender? Then sit down with a sketch artist.
It doesn't appear that is we have that here. LE has not stated that anyone saw the killer commit the crime, walking away from the bodies or seen with the girls just prior to act. I imagine LE had to determine who was at the trails that day and first try to eliminate each of them as the killer. Then they had to obtain descriptions from these individuals of others who were in the area and were not identified or did not come forward. At one of the CrimeCon sessions, 1st Sgt Holeman of ISP stated that the first sketch released took months to draw because it was the result of talking to persons, plural, who were at the trails that day. I've read somewhere where one witness supposedly saw a person in the vicinity of the cemetery that afternoon. Walking thru or past the cemetery or walking down the road in the area of the cemetery but didn't actually see if they went thru the cemetery? Another account I read is of a young girl who supposedly saw a man they in the area of the Freedom Bridge parking lot that made them uneasy. If that is one of the witnesses that suspicious person is not near the crime scene.
I can't fault LE for doing this, if this is how they arrived at either sketch. They don't have an actual witness to the crime itself. If you think back to being on hiking or walking trail recently, try to imagine attempting to remember everyone you saw that day, what they looked like and what they were wearing. Or when you went to a grocery store this last weekend, try to remember everyone you saw walk across the parking lot as you were coming and going. And do this the next day or 2-3 days later, not right after. And LE is talking to these persons days, weeks and even months afterwards.
One of these sketches might be the killer or somewhere in between. Or it could be a person with nothing to do with the murders and was in the wrong place at the wrong time. An innocent person might come forward. But if a person who had nothing to do with the crime but with something else to hide they are not going to be too eager. If a sex offender is not supposed to be in such places happens to be there he is not likely to come forward. If a man walking down the road near the cemetery had nothing to do with the murders but is a thief with a record and he was casing houses he is not likely to come forward. After all, look what happened to Ron Logan and he apparently had nothing to do with the murders.

 

[minazoe]

A hoodie makes sense as it provides additional pockets for murder equipment.

it looks like it has a lot of white string in the hood unlike like most that have color matching strings. I have seen this before on American Apparel Hoodies, ( they went out of biz). but maybe other brands also have this white cord inside the hood.

other wise it's rope or it is holding something he is wearing around his neck.

some have seen a go pro camera in the image ( if not allowed I apologize).

some see a shot gun in his pant leg.

he's like a photographic Rorschach test. is it a hat? is it a wig? does he have a puppy in his jacket?


it's almost like he was moving in a bubble that concealed him, like all of evil just conspired to help him out .

He is a ghoul and a loser. mOO

 

[JnRyan]

Still following.

Sadly, I think this guy will have to murder again.. .and make a mistake this time, in order for him to be caught.

I'm thinking the same thing.

 

[tresir2012]

That rapist guy is 6'3"? Bg is supposed to be around 5'8". I know that is just a guestimate, but I agree that someone 6'3" should almost certainly be eliminated.

It blows my mind that we can't even determine if that is his hair, or a hat/hood. I'm leaning towards it being like a camo hoodie. Hoodies generally have a seam right down the middle of the hood. I think this seam is what also looks like a "part" in his hair in some of the still shots.

LIBERTY GERMAN — FBI

The FBI poster says a hoodie.

 

[tresir2012]

Same here. There seems to be a lot of indecisiveness surrounding the sketch, from law enforcement themselves. First there was the main sketch, then the unveiling of the new sketch with police saying all but erase the first one from your memory. Then there was a change in tone when they started doing interviews again after last years press conference, "I am pretty sure when we have an arrest, he will look like a combination of the two, almost if you placed one sketch on top of the other".

I grew up in a town that neighbors Delphi until I moved out at 19 to go to college, and stayed on the east coat after graduation. My aunt, uncle, and cousins live in Delphi and are very involved in the community, know the families. I'm new here so I assume town chatter isn't allowed, but I will just say from speaking with my family and friends in town, many seem to be concerned about the accuracy of the new sketch for a specific reason and are equally as confused.

Thank you to all who keep this case alive. I have read through almost every thread from the start while social distancing. It's heartwarming to see how much care and thirst for answers there is here. I've never been a big true crime follower outside of work, since what I do professionally involves tech/forensics, but I am interested and eager for news and movement in this case. Hits close to home.

Welcome to WS. It is good to have a local here.

 

[sunshineray]

I suppose what bothers me about the sketches is what I believe the process was in arriving at either. In most cases a victim who survives provides a description or a witness sees the person commit the crime or sees them leaving the scene immediately afterwards. Really little or no process. IOW, did you see the offender? Then sit down with a sketch artist.
It doesn't appear that is we have that here. LE has not stated that anyone saw the killer commit the crime, walking away from the bodies or seen with the girls just prior to act. I imagine LE had to determine who was at the trails that day and first try to eliminate each of them as the killer. Then they had to obtain descriptions from these individuals of others who were in the area and were not identified or did not come forward. At one of the CrimeCon sessions, 1st Sgt Holeman of ISP stated that the first sketch released took months to draw because it was the result of talking to persons, plural, who were at the trails that day. I've read somewhere where one witness supposedly saw a person in the vicinity of the cemetery that afternoon. Walking thru or past the cemetery or walking down the road in the area of the cemetery but didn't actually see if they went thru the cemetery? Another account I read is of a young girl who supposedly saw a man they in the area of the Freedom Bridge parking lot that made them uneasy. If that is one of the witnesses that suspicious person is not near the crime scene.
I can't fault LE for doing this, if this is how they arrived at either sketch. They don't have an actual witness to the crime itself. If you think back to being on hiking or walking trail recently, try to imagine attempting to remember everyone you saw that day, what they looked like and what they were wearing. Or when you went to a grocery store this last weekend, try to remember everyone you saw walk across the parking lot as you were coming and going. And do this the next day or 2-3 days later, not right after. And LE is talking to these persons days, weeks and even months afterwards.
One of these sketches might be the killer or somewhere in between. Or it could be a person with nothing to do with the murders and was in the wrong place at the wrong time. An innocent person might come forward. But if a person who had nothing to do with the crime but with something else to hide they are not going to be too eager. If a sex offender is not supposed to be in such places happens to be there he is not likely to come forward. If a man walking down the road near the cemetery had nothing to do with the murders but is a thief with a record and he was casing houses he is not likely to come forward. After all, look what happened to Ron Logan and he apparently had nothing to do with the murders.

Wasn't there mentioned, by GH in one of his shows, that there was someone near the cemetery who saw someone (I think from their house window?) walking on the roadway in the timeframe of right after the murders? Or am I not remembering that correctly?

 

[watcher9]

Same here. There seems to be a lot of indecisiveness surrounding the sketch, from law enforcement themselves. First there was the main sketch, then the unveiling of the new sketch with police saying all but erase the first one from your memory. Then there was a change in tone when they started doing interviews again after last years press conference, "I am pretty sure when we have an arrest, he will look like a combination of the two, almost if you placed one sketch on top of the other".

I grew up in a town that neighbors Delphi until I moved out at 19 to go to college, and stayed on the east coat after graduation. My aunt, uncle, and cousins live in Delphi and are very involved in the community, know the families. I'm new here so I assume town chatter isn't allowed, but I will just say from speaking with my family and friends in town, many seem to be concerned about the accuracy of the new sketch for a specific reason and are equally as confused.

Thank you to all who keep this case alive. I have read through almost every thread from the start while social distancing. It's heartwarming to see how much care and thirst for answers there is here. I've never been a big true crime follower outside of work, since what I do professionally involves tech/forensics, but I am interested and eager for news and movement in this case. Hits close to home.

Welcome to WS and to this thread.

Glad to hear that the town folks are as confused about the new sketch as we are. Sometimes I wish LE had never introduced either sketch and had just kept pushing the still shot from the video and the audio clip out into the public eye.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I suppose what bothers me about the sketches is what I believe the process was in arriving at either. In most cases a victim who survives provides a description or a witness sees the person commit the crime or sees them leaving the scene immediately afterwards. Really little or no process. IOW, did you see the offender? Then sit down with a sketch artist.
It doesn't appear that is we have that here. LE has not stated that anyone saw the killer commit the crime, walking away from the bodies or seen with the girls just prior to act. I imagine LE had to determine who was at the trails that day and first try to eliminate each of them as the killer. Then they had to obtain descriptions from these individuals of others who were in the area and were not identified or did not come forward. At one of the CrimeCon sessions, 1st Sgt Holeman of ISP stated that the first sketch released took months to draw because it was the result of talking to persons, plural, who were at the trails that day. I've read somewhere where one witness supposedly saw a person in the vicinity of the cemetery that afternoon. Walking thru or past the cemetery or walking down the road in the area of the cemetery but didn't actually see if they went thru the cemetery? Another account I read is of a young girl who supposedly saw a man they in the area of the Freedom Bridge parking lot that made them uneasy. If that is one of the witnesses that suspicious person is not near the crime scene.
I can't fault LE for doing this, if this is how they arrived at either sketch. They don't have an actual witness to the crime itself. If you think back to being on hiking or walking trail recently, try to imagine attempting to remember everyone you saw that day, what they looked like and what they were wearing. Or when you went to a grocery store this last weekend, try to remember everyone you saw walk across the parking lot as you were coming and going. And do this the next day or 2-3 days later, not right after. And LE is talking to these persons days, weeks and even months afterwards.
One of these sketches might be the killer or somewhere in between. Or it could be a person with nothing to do with the murders and was in the wrong place at the wrong time. An innocent person might come forward. But if a person who had nothing to do with the crime but with something else to hide they are not going to be too eager. If a sex offender is not supposed to be in such places happens to be there he is not likely to come forward. If a man walking down the road near the cemetery had nothing to do with the murders but is a thief with a record and he was casing houses he is not likely to come forward. After all, look what happened to Ron Logan and he apparently had nothing to do with the murders.

The sketch thing is one of those things made worse by LE’s silence about the case. First they release the 1st sketch made from talking with people who saw BG walking around the trails that day. OK. Then they say, forget that sketch. Not the guy. We’re looking for New Sketch guy. Huh? Well, then who did all those people that helped with the first sketch actually see that day? There were two guys walking around the trails that day dressed exactly alike? One happened to be a crazy killer? So whose the other guy whose dressed like that? Has he come forward? This is a big problem I think and since LE releases nothing they can only try to fix it by saying goofy things like he’s between the sketches etc. Hard to think either sketch will lead to an arrest.

 

[Dotrat]

My speculation on the 1st sketch released (older looking BG) was that BG or someone covering for him was privy to the initial sketch (which is the current sketch released in April, but drawn shortly after murders) and was able to have some influence on which one to use.
And at 4/19 presser
"You didn't think we would change strategies, but we have"!!!

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Still following.

Sadly, I think this guy will have to murder again.. .and make a mistake this time, in order for him to be caught.

The killer(s) made mistakes already, like DC said. Maybe, the mistakes are sufficient and it will only take time to build a strong case.