Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #122

[Ozoner]

Great post overall. I quoted it only partially, the aspect that stood out to me.

I don't exclude Bridge Guy from being local. But I don't view it as necessity or anything close to necessity.

If Bridge Guy is committing a crime like this in a well traveled building, and one with video surveillance, then the local knowledge requirement is extraordinary. He has to know which room he can take them, one that will be accessible and vacant, along with remaining vacant long enough for him to escape. He has to combine that ideal room with camera avoidance. He has to know the foot traffic pattern and timing. And so forth.

What the heck does he have to know at Monon High? Nobody else will be here. That's about it. He's picked that trail because of how low traveled it is. Now where do I take the victims? Up here on the same level as the bridge? Not ideal. There are two homes not far away. This could be messy and noisy. And if I leave the bodies up here anyone who searches for the girls will no doubt find them quickly, perhaps before I'm fully long gone. Okay, how about down the hill from the bridge and on the same side of the creek? The gravel access road cuts through down there. The tree cover is very thin. This is February, after all. Certainly I can do better than this. But I can't risk a long march amidst captivity. Too many things can go wrong, like if I walk them back under the bridge. It needs to be fairly close yet isolated, and visible from as few areas as possible.

IMO, that is the aspect people are missing. It wasn't as if Bridge Guy identified the ideal concealed location amidst hundreds of possibilities. He had only a handful of logical choices, and picked the best one. That wouldn't have taken long at all to figure out.

BTW, I agree with Falling Down that using the gravel access road and then maneuvering back up to the bridge would have been asking too much of Bridge Guy. He would have been waiting down there all day or all week for a victim(s). Plus he wouldn't have had a clear indication of what they looked like in terms of age, etc. Then maneuvering back up to the bridge would have been a chore, especially to the north side. You'd have to cross the creek to emerge over there. Bridge Guy already would have looked wet in Libby's video.

Also, locals wouldn't know a darn thing about that area across the creek where the bodies were found. I stood right there in the middle of the creek bed and couldn't see anything. I guarantee prior to these murders virtually nobody had been there in years. You know there's a slope of some type. That's about it.

I hope all the "likes" to that post and the intimate knowledge supposedly required weren't liking the notion that the intimate knowledge was held by the property owner. That is a particularly pathetic recent theme on YouTube and elsewhere. Talk about flunking probability. Those YouTubers have zero credibility. They sucker gullible types.

Regarding people like the ones targeting the property owner, there are morons like that everywhere. In the Jacob Wetterling case, many people suspected a local music teacher simply because the abduction occurred near his residence; people continued to accuse him for years despite the complete absence of evidence against him. Some people just have very low IQs and/or no critical thinking skills. To paraphrase George Carlin, think about how stupid the average person is, and then consider that half of all people are stupider than that.

 

[rainwaterstill]

I'll be blunt. I am not a fan of abbreviations. I don't know what DNR means. But even without knowing what it means I will say an emphatic No. I always believe in every other possibility above a specific connection. I see little reason to believe Bridge Guy was local, given the exceptionally low population of the area.

I'm also not a believer in a toilet break theory. The trails are extremely low traveled. But anyone who is there is doing so on design. My belief is Bridge Guy had designs on finding victims on a trail. Monon High Bridge Trail may have been one of many he was scouting at the time.

Never place full spotlight on the result. If these murders had occurred on another trail in the Delphi system then all emphasis would be there, and we'd occasionally hear about Monon High only as an aside, if at all.

DNR, in this context, most likely means Department of Natural Resources. Camping, hunting, fishing, etc. DNR: DNR Home

 

[tresir2012]

Cass County man admits to killing his uncle 10 years ago, sentenced to 45 years in prison This is a wild twist. I wonder how he wound up on the list of suspects. Maybe the tipster needs looking into. It's good Sellers is in prison for killing his uncle. I just wonder how the tipster got to the point of turning him in as a suspect for BG. Which led to sellers confession. I hope this gets investigated further. MOO

He was tipped as being BG and was pulled in for questioning. During the questioning he confessed to killing his uncle. I presume they knew who tipped him but it could have been anonymous also.

 

[Gracie55]

I think kids were drawn to the creek to explore. All kinds of cool stuff creek side, even caves somewhere nearby. Wilsons Cave on Deer Creek The sandbar in this pic even looks like the bend in the crime scene pics, but I have no idea how close nearby these were. Still, as a kid? I'd be drawn. When I was young we explored such places, but Deer Creek sounds more promising than even our haunts, although we found neat stuff like rocks, even an arrowhead once. Deer Creek was likely a good place to explore. Natives once likely lived alongside the creek, using the sand bars for purposes like swimming, washing, bathing. An artifact hunting guide I recently acquired even suggests creeks as good spots to hunt points, or other items, even graves. Problem is, while it might be ok with permission in some places in Indiana there's a problem. About a year ago, a few days prior to the press release when the new sketch came out, a couple in Indiana was arrested for artifact looting not too far from Delphi. Southern Indiana couple accused of looting American Indian artifacts says they 'try to be good people' Now, I don't think this couple murdered anyone, but could they be a link in the chain to identify the girls' killer? They were after stuff to sell for profit I'd imagine, indicating a black market trade in artifacts. Did they alert LE to someone in their shadowy network, thus generating this sketch?
<modsnip> Why all the secrecy? Maybe they don't want a bunch of gawkers exploring the creek. This area after all is pretty much a historic area...
Just my thinking. Several facts. Guide yourself on any conclusions but I think it could be relative to what happened.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I think kids were drawn to the creek to explore. All kinds of cool stuff creek side, even caves somewhere nearby. Wilsons Cave on Deer Creek The sandbar in this pic even looks like the bend in the crime scene pics, but I have no idea how close nearby these were. Still, as a kid? I'd be drawn. When I was young we explored such places, but Deer Creek sounds more promising than even our haunts, although we found neat stuff like rocks, even an arrowhead once. Deer Creek was likely a good place to explore. Natives once likely lived alongside the creek, using the sand bars for purposes like swimming, washing, bathing. An artifact hunting guide I recently acquired even suggests creeks as good spots to hunt points, or other items, even graves. Problem is, while it might be ok with permission in some places in Indiana there's a problem. About a year ago, a few days prior to the press release when the new sketch came out, a couple in Indiana was arrested for artifact looting not too far from Delphi. Southern Indiana couple accused of looting American Indian artifacts says they 'try to be good people' Now, I don't think this couple murdered anyone, but could they be a link in the chain to identify the girls' killer? They were after stuff to sell for profit I'd imagine, indicating a black market trade in artifacts. Did they alert LE to someone in their shadowy network, thus generating this sketch?
Libs warned not to trespass. What drew her there? Caves. Artifacts. Natives used this area. Problem? Artifact looting. Stiff penalties. Someone threatened because she knew.
Why all the secrecy? Maybe they don't want a bunch of gawkers exploring the creek. This area after all is pretty much a historic area...
Just my thinking. Several facts. Guide yourself on any conclusions but I think it could be relative to what happened.

Southern Indiana couple accused of looting American Indian artifacts says they 'try to be good people'
Unfortunately there are restrictions again because of EU .... can't read.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

It might be easier. DC is a religious person. DC probably has own small circle of POIs. “I saw you in church, hence, you have some conscience left” is the way DC could think.

He may have a certain POI and knows exactly, the person had to do with "Church/Religion" in his past, if only for a relative short time.
DC may have appealed to BG's intelligence or to a religious episode in BG's past, which a person could have had also for some sort of "presentation" purposes only (not for deeply religious missionary work). MOO

 

[watcher9]

Well, I'm from hillbilly holler because people where I'm from use dogs to tree coons and ride mules to find them. T hey use mules because a mule, unlike a horse doesn't need a running start to jump a fenc e.

I still say LE needs to get that video snapshot back out and flood the networks with it so more and more viewers can see it. Leave out the sketches which just confused everyone. Don't say he had to be local or have local ties which only narrowed the coverage.

I always knew about coon dogs treeing coons, but never heard about a mule jumping a fence before. Learn something new everyday. Thanks.
A quick search turned up lots of hits, including this one.

Mule Jumping Competition - Horse Lover's Math

 

[CocoChanel]

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[rosesfromangels]

Thank you CoCo Chanel. My apologies. I should know better. Can I blame it on isolation brain fog?

: )

 

[somequestions]

Great post overall. I quoted it only partially, the aspect that stood out to me.

I don't exclude Bridge Guy from being local. But I don't view it as necessity or anything close to necessity.

If Bridge Guy is committing a crime like this in a well traveled building, and one with video surveillance, then the local knowledge requirement is extraordinary. He has to know which room he can take them, one that will be accessible and vacant, along with remaining vacant long enough for him to escape. He has to combine that ideal room with camera avoidance. He has to know the foot traffic pattern and timing. And so forth.

What the heck does he have to know at Monon High? Nobody else will be here. That's about it. He's picked that trail because of how low traveled it is. Now where do I take the victims? Up here on the same level as the bridge? Not ideal. There are two homes not far away. This could be messy and noisy. And if I leave the bodies up here anyone who searches for the girls will no doubt find them quickly, perhaps before I'm fully long gone. Okay, how about down the hill from the bridge and on the same side of the creek? The gravel access road cuts through down there. The tree cover is very thin. This is February, after all. Certainly I can do better than this. But I can't risk a long march amidst captivity. Too many things can go wrong, like if I walk them back under the bridge. It needs to be fairly close yet isolated, and visible from as few areas as possible.

IMO, that is the aspect people are missing. It wasn't as if Bridge Guy identified the ideal concealed location amidst hundreds of possibilities. He had only a handful of logical choices, and picked the best one. That wouldn't have taken long at all to figure out.

BTW, I agree with Falling Down that using the gravel access road and then maneuvering back up to the bridge would have been asking too much of Bridge Guy. He would have been waiting down there all day or all week for a victim(s). Plus he wouldn't have had a clear indication of what they looked like in terms of age, etc. Then maneuvering back up to the bridge would have been a chore, especially to the north side. You'd have to cross the creek to emerge over there. Bridge Guy already would have looked wet in Libby's video.

Also, locals wouldn't know a darn thing about that area across the creek where the bodies were found. I stood right there in the middle of the creek bed and couldn't see anything. I guarantee prior to these murders virtually nobody had been there in years. You know there's a slope of some type. That's about it.

I hope all the "likes" to that post and the intimate knowledge supposedly required weren't liking the notion that the intimate knowledge was held by the property owner. That is a particularly pathetic recent theme on YouTube and elsewhere. Talk about flunking probability. Those YouTubers have zero credibility. They sucker gullible types.

What I think the police were saying at the 4/22/19 press conference is that they believe that there is a higher statistical probability that the man on the bridge was from Delphi, IN or surrounding area. If I had written the same post 3 years ago, I do not think people would agree with me as much because they would want to give police time to investigate. Even I thought the killer could likely be from the Delphi, IN area at that time. So context matters. The families think the police are doing a good job and they probably know more than all of us. But as time goes by, I keep wondering how long it will take before the families respectfully go the police and ask, "Ok, realistically, what is the chance this case gets solved this year?"

My view on most criminal activity is this: I think most criminals, even ones like the bridge guy, are opportunistic in nature. They see something and they take it. It is that simple.

I could not agree with you more about the property owner. I liked what the property owner said at his court hearing when the judge asked if he had anything to say. His response was the only reason he is going to jail is because some person left two dead bodies on his property.

So if I were a detective on this case I would tell the property owner privately that I never suspected him of the crime. I know you cannot come to any conclusion 100% until the killer is caught. But if he asked why I am so sure this is what I would tell him: If a guy on probation gets it in his head that he wants to kidnap and kill two kids while walking across a bridge I think he could come up with a better alibi over a two day period than the one that landed you in jail.

The idea is that the property owner should be the one person who does know that were the bodies were left is on his property. And then he would or should expect that police are going to knock on his door.

 

[Gracie55]

Southern Indiana couple accused of looting American Indian artifacts says they 'try to be good people'
Unfortunately there are restrictions again because of EU .... can't read.

Southern Indiana couple accused of looting American Indian artifacts says they 'try to be good people'
Unfortunately there are restrictions again because of EU .... can't read.

I think the article was dated April 9, 2019. In a nutshell a couple was arrested shortly before the press conference for looting artifacts and the new sketch of the girls' assailant is released. My question, did this pair tip cops off to something? The timing makes me wonder, although the artifact looting scenario has been in my head awhile. The article also underscored the problem Indiana has been addressing with artifact theft.

 

[rypj84]

How likely is it that LE has a POI but can't connect this individual due to an alias or false identity?

 

[Ozoner]

How likely is it that LE has a POI but can't connect this individual due to an alias or false identity?

LE is very much accustomed to false alibis from relatives and girlfriends. That wouldn't stop them from making an arrest.

 

[ab01]

LE is very much accustomed to false alibis from relatives and girlfriends. That wouldn't stop them from making an arrest.

Yep at this point if it was a fake alibi it would have to be a rock solid one. Just saying I was with so and so wouldn't cut it.

I'm not sure there has been a point where they have zeroed in enough to include or exclude someone based on an alibi

Unfortunately I think BG is still on the peripheral of the investigation

 

[Ozoner]

Yep at this point if it was a fake alibi it would have to be a rock solid one. Just saying I was with so and so wouldn't cut it.

I'm not sure there has been a point where they have zeroed in enough to include or exclude someone based on an alibi

Unfortunately I think BG is still on the peripheral of the investigation

I think that his name has been called in, but it's probably just one name out of thousands. Nothing has made the tip stand out among all of the other tips that have to be run to ground.

 

[ab01]

I think that his name has been called in, but it's probably just one name out of thousands. Nothing has made the tip stand out among all of the other tips that have to be run to ground.

Agreed I'm picturing at this point that its going to take a situation where either BG is drunk and or on drugs and lets some information slip to somebody that then goes to LE with it and gets the ball rolling. JMO

 

[Alison]

I’ve been following since day one. I check in every so often to see if there’s anything new. A little heartbreaking knowing not much has changed over the years. One thing I can say is I think people give BG to much credit. I don’t think he’s all that intelligent and he’s only gotten away with this for so long because of sheer awful luck. His time is coming.

 

[somequestions]

I think there is one thing that makes the case of Abigail Williams and Liberty German so sad.

It is not time. There are cases that have gone unsolved for longer. It is not the evidence. I think this case has plenty of evidence. It is not the video. There are other cases that have video.

Context is what makes this case so sad. It is the context of how this case played out on that day that makes this case so sad. In the context of when the video started being taken, they could not have known what was going to happen next.

 

[ab01]

I think there is one thing that makes the case of Abigail Williams and Liberty German so sad.

It is not time. There are cases that have gone unsolved for longer. It is not the evidence. I think this case has plenty of evidence. It is not the video. There are other cases that have video.

Context is what makes this case so sad. It is the context of how this case played out on that day that makes this case so sad. In the context of when the video started being taken, they could not have known what was going to happen next.

For me any case that involves children is extremely heartbreaking. Whether it takes days, months or years the victims and their poor families deserve justice.

And I want to see the sick SOB off the streets so that he can't do it again

There is nothing in this world worse than the loss of an innocent child

 

[carbuff]

These are all relevant points. I've looked at literally hundreds of cases in rural areas (generally) across a large section of the Midwest, per information available online, and have yet to find anything with details similar to the ones which set the Delphi case apart. The details I'm talking about are the "knowns" in the Delphi case. Either LE have their own knowns from the CS that have similarities to another case or cases, or they have nothing with regards to connections at this point.

I appreciate Prosecutor Ives' being open in that one podcast, but he admitted that in Indiana, unlike other states (NY for example, where I'm from originally), LE take the lead in investigations. So a lot of information regarding the investigation, which may include details of the CS, may not be known by Prosecutor Ives.

JMO

I've also done a lot of looking and yeah, there are not a lot of parallel crimes. Possibly L&L in Iowa, and another woman from Iowa who was found dead at a fishing access in Minnesota. There are murders of young women in the west in the 1970s and 1980's, particularly Colorado and Washington, where the victim was left in rural areas near water, but that seems both too old and too far afield.