Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #122

[California Sunset]

More on this strange story




Bar incident turns into charges for county deputy | Carroll County Comet

Is this the first this is being reported? This happened almost three years ago, according to the news article.

 

[California Sunset]

My thoughts only - it’s be unlikely a suspect with premeditated criminal intent involving anything such as assault, abduction, or murder would use padding because it would impede his agility and mobility.

If he had 'premeditated criminal intent', why would he have a possible 'change of clothes' under his coat?

 

[MistyWaters]

If he had 'premeditated criminal intent', why would he have a possible 'change of clothes' under his coat?

I wasn’t aware of a possible change of clothes under his coat. I think that’s just a theory? LE never said if they believe witnesses sighted the suspect in different clothing, that I can recall, and it’s often easier to identify a stranger by the clothing they wore, rather than recalling a face. Something such as a description of different clothing would also be important information for anyone who knows the suspect. IMO.

 

[MistyWaters]

Is this the first this is being reported? This happened almost three years ago, according to the news article.

No, it was reported in 2017. It’s not new information, I just mentioned it because of the possible spanner it might’ve thrown, if this officer was initially involved in the investigation. Speculation only, but if he were to testify in Court at a future date regarding any involvement he had with the suspect or even another witness in the capacity of a police officer at the time, there’s a strong likelihood he’d be impeached. So LE would’ve had to reinterview or reinvestigate or do whatever they could possibly do in order to mitigate his prior involvement.

The question could also be asked, were his issues with alcohol never noticed by Carroll County Sheriff Dept prior to this incident, especially if he made it a habit to hang out at local bars? It goes without saying a police officer battling addictions is unable to always perform well on the job, aside from the resulting lack of respect by the public.

It’s a worst case scenario for any police department, if one of their own is fired for wrongdoing - aka breaking the law - during the course of any criminal investigation considering the job they’re tasked with is upholding the law.

 

[IceIce9]

DBM

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Just now I remember LE saying, they were onto something right at the beginning and are sure, they interviewed the right person early on. If they indeed interviewed BG as a witness, they would have asked for his alibi and for the reason, to be in that area at the time. I wonder, whether BG did name someone, who was the connecting link between BG and Delphi area or whether BG did not. If BG had named someone, the person would have been asked by LE for confirming the statement. Or did BG say, he is loving trails and old bridges and creeks and loves hiking all alone for his mental health? Wondering .....

That is the one thing from the 2019 press conference and interviews immediately afterward that stands out to me...”we feel like we were on to some thing early on.” Everything else in that PC has been a huge bust in my opinion. (The new sketch and the old sketch have been rendered virtually useless by LE’s going back and forth on them, “The Shack” meant nothing, the people of Delphi still don’t recognize this person supposedly from Delphi, the car at CPS lead nowhere, etc).
But “we feel like we were on to something early on” that could stand some looking into. The early search warrants, Indiana Packers, early interviewees, early suspects. I’m most interested in the early search warrants but I know it’s been hard to get information on them.

 

[sumzero]

DC seemed to be speaking for himself. He thinks it's "likely" they've spoken to BG at some point during the investigation. But it's just a guess at this point. Here's the question and answer verbatim:

Interviewer: You said something during the briefing that struck me--you feel like the investigators may have talked to him. You think that at some point, or since then, one of your guys has gotten in front of this person and asked him questions, and if so, how, at that point, did it not lead to an arrest, and how could it be moving forward?

DC: Well, I think it's likely. I think it's likely. There's a lot of opinions out there, there's a lot of subjective opinions, there's a lot of analysis being done, which we're trying to encourage folks to not do, those kinds of side-by-side analysis. I really believe, that over time, we're gonna have an idea that we were onto something early on. Now remember, this isn't a 43-minute TV show, we have to, we have to, we have to understand that's not just science, but it's also human intelligence, what people know.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I wasn’t aware of a possible change of clothes under his coat. I think that’s just a theory? LE never said if they believe witnesses sighted the suspect in different clothing, that I can recall, and it’s often easier to identify a stranger by the clothing they wore, rather than recalling a face. Something such as a description of different clothing would also be important information for anyone who knows the suspect. IMO.

I would like to learn of the man in all black: Did he wear ie. a skin tight sportsdress (or similar) or was it "casual clothing"? We will not hear, what LE know - unfortunately.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

My thoughts only - it’s be unlikely a suspect with premeditated criminal intent involving anything such as assault, abduction, or murder would use padding because it would impede his agility and mobility.

Also it would have been recognized by people, he met on trail or when he was seen in the video, and that was probably the very least, he would have risked. IMO
So, I think: no, he did without padding for certain reasons.
Furthermore my own intuition is more so, that he didn't have to protect himself thoroughly like that (padding), because he cared for his "physical distancing" to the girls. His (probably) disguise and maybe gloves were enough for him.
MOO of course

 

[Charlot123]

That is the one thing from the 2019 press conference and interviews immediately afterward that stands out to me...”we feel like we were on to some thing early on.” Everything else in that PC has been a huge bust in my opinion. (The new sketch and the old sketch have been rendered virtually useless by LE’s going back and forth on them, “The Shack” meant nothing, the people of Delphi still don’t recognize this person supposedly from Delphi, the car at CPS lead nowhere, etc).
But “we feel like we were on to something early on” that could stand some looking into. The early search warrants, Indiana Packers, early interviewees, early suspects. I’m most interested in the early search warrants but I know it’s been hard to get information on them.

Maybe it did not come to search warrants. Maybe it was as much as checking the alibis of everyone around the bridge - but then someone who was trusted, a witness, provided them with the information that threw them onto a different path. And only now did they realize they were duped.

I think that even at the moment of the conference they had a list of POIs. What they said, “it is all about power to you”, “you want to know what we know”, sounded as it was targeting different people. I think that what might be happening, they have a working theory, and it explains all the inconsistencies of the case. But IRL, not enough facts to prove it, and whoever they are “playing against” is as cold as steel. Not the person to be broken by a polygraph, like Chris Watts. So essentially, they have no proof.

But what they probably know is the motive.

 

[Charlot123]

Also it would have been recognized by people, he met on trail or when he was seen in the video, and that was probably the very least, he would have risked. IMO
So, I think: no, he did without padding for certain reasons.
Furthermore my own intuition is more so, that he didn't have to protect himself thoroughly like that (padding), because he cared for his "physical distancing" to the girls. His (probably) disguise and maybe gloves were enough for him.
MOO of course

I think he was wearing the whole army surplus store plus weapons catalogue on him, couldn’t even walk normally because of whatever was in his crotch/on legs. He had enough of other padding.

It makes me wonder why. Any professional killer doesn’t need much. This guy looks like a person from a show. Could he even run after the girls in this outfit? No. So he probably didn’t run.

I even wonder if he was not quite local. Or for some reason, not known to the girls if local. My version is, he wanted one of the girls. Which one? Depends on the motive. He might have said to one of them, “go home. We need to talk to your friend”. And this is where the girl refused to abandon her bestie.

Who was he after? Depends on the motive. If it was anything like to silence, revenge, fear, it should have been Libby. If it was merely sexual, Abby. But the relatives said that one of the girls could have escaped but did not want to abandon the friend, so, my opinion, he was after one of them.

Nothing postmortem could indicate who it was, because my thinking is, he was angry as heck at that time. But I still think he was after Libby, because Abby was not on the bridge that often. She might have crossed the bridge before, but it was not her favorite place. Libby, on the other hand, had been there quite often.

Also, he might have known something about the girls’ personalities and knew that Libby was not to take orders. Hence the whole arsenal of the weapons. Whom he likely misjudged was Abby. Abby, smaller, younger, lighter, more shy, probably looked like the kid who would run away. But she didn’t.

MOO - and it comes from the fact that either way, be it a random sex crime, or a targeted issue, he probably needed just one. Unless he has OCD that makes him abduct in couples, he was probably after one.

As to where he went afterwards? I think, up the hill. I think there was only one real witness who saw him that day. JMO.

ETA: I think he also knew that even if one of the girls survived, she would not know his name. So he is either not a Delphian (maybe from a town nearby), or not local at all, and has a rather average face.

 

[MistyWaters]

Also it would have been recognized by people, he met on trail or when he was seen in the video, and that was probably the very least, he would have risked. IMO
So, I think: no, he did without padding for certain reasons.
Furthermore my own intuition is more so, that he didn't have to protect himself thoroughly like that (padding), because he cared for his "physical distancing" to the girls. His (probably) disguise and maybe gloves were enough for him.
MOO of course

Or possibly he avoided the main trail rather than be seen, no need for a disguise or if IIRC as BP said nobody has sighted the girls either and there was a lull on the trail area near the bridge at that time so nobody got a good look at the guy near the crime scene. Or maybe he wasn’t concerned local people would readily recognize him because he wasn’t a regular or well-known member of the community, even though he was familiar with the trails and bridge for whatever reason.

Just my thoughts more or less related as some people might think the two sketches are the same person (they’re not, quote below). By LE “changing directions” to sketch #2 more than two years out, IMO that other sighting made days after the murders can’t have been a very red-hot lead. And a year has now passed. As sketch #1 didn’t pan out for whatever reason, it’s not unusual for LE to move on to the next best possibility. Since sketch #1 had already been announced as “the one”, if LE didn’t release another sketch the only alternative would be to withdraw the first sketch and admit they have no idea. That’s generally what defines a cold case which would surely shut down all the media attention. By the suggestion the suspect may be a combination of the two sketches widens the pool of possible suspects dramatically.

“The man depicted in an old sketch released to the public two years ago is no longer believed to be the person who killed teens Abigail Williams and Liberty German in Delphi, Indiana State Police said.

The man in the 2017 sketch was a person of interest in the investigation during that period, police said......

“While both sketches were drawn in 2017, police clarified that the renderings are "not the same person."..”
2 sketches in Delphi murders case are not of the same man, police say

 

[Michigan]

In various podcasts it seems like profilers suppose that Carter was speaking to the killer in an attempt to agitate him and they believe his speech was “scripted” to try to tease a response from the killer, put him under pressure, etc. Carter talks about his belief that the killer has one shred of a conscience left. And yet other profilers talk about how a killer like this would go home and eat a hamburger and not worry at all about the victims. So which is it? Does a killer like this have a conscience? I wouldn’t think so. But in Carter’s speech in the last press conference he is attempting to appeal to that conscience. This confuses me.

MOO, IMO etc.

 

[somequestions]

In various podcasts it seems like profilers suppose that Carter was speaking to the killer in an attempt to agitate him and they believe his speech was “scripted” to try to tease a response from the killer, put him under pressure, etc. Carter talks about his belief that the killer has one shred of a conscience left. And yet other profilers talk about how a killer like this would go home and eat a hamburger and not worry at all about the victims. So which is it? Does a killer like this have a conscience? I wouldn’t think so. But in Carter’s speech in the last press conference he is attempting to appeal to that conscience. This confuses me.

MOO, IMO etc.

I think the problem is that police in this case have their own opinion of the type of individual they are looking for and that is it. Even individuals within LE agencies investigating the same case sometimes have different opinions. It seems like the Abigail Williams and Liberty German investigation is localized to Indiana and, while it considers people outside the Delphi, Indiana area, that is not the primary focus.

Since I thought the Utah Lake missing person case could be related to the Delphi, Indiana and Evansdale, Iowa cases, I think there is a lesson to be learned here. If your investigation is so broad in scope, all you have are numerous possibilities that you may end up considering for years. However, if your investigation is very narrow in scope, you could be missing an important possibility in what looks to be an otherwise easy case to solve.

 

[Charlot123]

Also, I always wonder if

- if only one girl were killed, would the case have become easier to solve, or more difficult?
- if the guy is the collector of weapons, and some of the things he used, or carried, are rare?
- if he quietly got rid from part of his collection, where would he do it? My choice would be, eBay, not Craigslist, but is it still traceable? EBay really cooperates with the vendors, and is vendor-driven, however, maybe in a major crime, they would?
- I think that arresting RL was a major mistake, as it gave a very wrong message to the locals, that if they go to LE with their suspicions, they could be implicated, too.
- however, it seems to me that the case is lacking witnesses, and this tells me that the motive was not sexual
- if the motive were purely sexual, people around, women, would be so scared, they’d overcome any others fears and work with LE
- as it is, they are not afraid for themselves. And why should they be? TL himself said it was limited to the individuals, or something like it.
- so it tells me that the motive was not sexual, that it might be known to some (or, people are guessing), and that they don't want to collaborate with the cops on one hand and are scared of consequences of being deemed "snitches", on the other.

 

[Charlot123]

Another thing I don't understand. From my perception about real spies, real assassins, real criminals, not these gangs but big-time evil men, they usually try not to attract attention to themselves. The opposite, rather. The last big gangster that thrived on attention was Al Kapone, and he did not fare well. He became "the face" of organized crime.

But this person on the bridge...it looks as if he is pretending, or loves "make believe" play. He is overdressed for the task. So either, sadly, he is sadistic and eager to try whatever he carries, or, he is not a professional, and professional is waiting down the hill. Something doesn't match.

Another version, he is very professional, but carries hunter's outfit, so if he is ever stopped by the police, frisked, even, he looks like an animal hunter.

What does it tell us about him? That he is still not quite local? Or that he is local, but prepared for searches?

 

[stattlich1]

"Doug Carter, superintendent of the Indiana State Police, which is leading the investigation, has insisted repeatedly that the Delphi slayings are not a "cold case."

Sgt. Kim Riley of the Lafayette Post of the Indiana State Police agrees."

Delphi murders: After 3 years, police say case isn't cold

I see definitions of 'cold case' vary considerably. The aforementioned seem to be certain that this case is NOT one.

~

"Last month, Libby’s mother, Carrie Timmons, expressed she thought the case was at a standstill, even though police had said it was in no way a cold case."

Killer in Delphi Murders 'Knew Area Well' Ahead of Abductions, Callahan Walsh Says After Examining Case

As for MOO, I'm in no way qualified to call a case 'cold' or not, however, it's beginning to look like a duck.

I'm back to having potentially unpopular thoughts about this case, won't share publicly, but suffice it to say something's fishy. Not adding up. Doesn't make sense. Can't put my finger on it, but for this evening, in my soul, there's an unsettled feeling about the whole business.

video
pictures
voice recordings
dna
myriad statements....may be in this room, from Delphi, or visits regularly, etc. etc.

Just sayin'

 

[MistyWaters]

"Doug Carter, superintendent of the Indiana State Police, which is leading the investigation, has insisted repeatedly that the Delphi slayings are not a "cold case."

Sgt. Kim Riley of the Lafayette Post of the Indiana State Police agrees."

Delphi murders: After 3 years, police say case isn't cold

I see definitions of 'cold case' vary considerably. The aforementioned seem to be certain that this case is NOT one.

~

"Last month, Libby’s mother, Carrie Timmons, expressed she thought the case was at a standstill, even though police had said it was in no way a cold case."

Killer in Delphi Murders 'Knew Area Well' Ahead of Abductions, Callahan Walsh Says After Examining Case

As for MOO, I'm in no way qualified to call a case 'cold' or not, however, it's beginning to look like a duck.

I'm back to having potentially unpopular thoughts about this case, won't share publicly, but suffice it to say something's fishy. Not adding up. Doesn't make sense. Can't put my finger on it, but for this evening, in my soul, there's an unsettled feeling about the whole business.

video
pictures
voice recordings
dna
myriad statements....may be in this room, from Delphi, or visits regularly, etc. etc.

Just sayin'

This quote below is from Feb, 2018. Maybe just a coincidence, or maybe not, just over a year later indeed it appeared they did start all over again with a “new direction”.

“It’s not going to be a cold case, it’s not.”

“I’ve said all along, as long as I’m in this role and breathing, we’re not leaving the City of Delphi in Carroll County, Indiana, we’re just not,” said Carter. “And if we get to the point where we have exhausted the leads that we currently have in the queue then we’re going to start all over again.”....”
One Year Later: Why the Delphi case isn't cold

 

[sunshineray]

I wasn’t aware of a possible change of clothes under his coat. I think that’s just a theory? LE never said if they believe witnesses sighted the suspect in different clothing, that I can recall, and it’s often easier to identify a stranger by the clothing they wore, rather than recalling a face. Something such as a description of different clothing would also be important information for anyone who knows the suspect. IMO.

I've always thought it was interesting that LE asked the public about seeing someone walking or hitching or seeing a duffel bag along Hoosier Highway. BG might have had a change of clothes stashed somewhere to change into after murders but I don't think from the look of him in Libby's video that he had a double set of clothes on before he abducted and killed the girls. JMO

Tips pour in after suspect identified in Delphi double homicide

 

[Awsi Dooger]

At the :45 mark, you can clearly see the CPS building in the lower right- hand corner of the frame. Great perspective at that time in the video, you see the raised earthen area on the west side of the highway, which is a parking area, the bridge now in place, and the trailhead on the east end of the bridge in the left part of the frame.

Great post, in fact it might be a good idea to put it in the videos/timeline/media/etc. thread.

The drone photos are excellent. One of the best things I've seen in a long time in regard to this case. They should be part of the videos thread.

Those photos are the best depiction of how wide open Hoosier Heartland Highway is, regardless of the Lafayette direction or the Logansport direction from Delphi. That aspect stunned me before I got within 15 miles of Delphi. I kept repeating to myself, "He was long gone." As you can see from those drone photos there is nothing near the highway like homes or convenience stores or gas stations or anything else. Mile after mile. Wide open spaces. No threat of stoppages. Really the only opportunity to capture something would have been a faraway view from one of those buildings near Freedom Bridge, or cameras on Freedom Bridge itself. Those do not exist, or did not exist in February 2017. I'm sure Bridge Guy checked that beforehand.

Also, Falling Down pointed out recently in this thread that Bridge Guy had to get the girls down the hill, and once they were down the hill they were essentially trapped. Exactly correct. It feels like a different world down there. You might scream but there's no guarantee anyone will hear, let alone react anytime soon. I felt like I could have screamed at the top of my lungs and I'd be waiting 15 minutes for anyone to react. Where are they going to come from?

Once down the hill the only escape route that doesn't require a considerable obstacle is the narrow passageway back underneath the bridge. Everything else is either severely uphill or across the creek. Here is one photo I took while walking toward Deer Creek. I wanted to demonstrate how steep the hill is and also that it is not square. It curves around, essentially boxing you in even more. The home atop the ridge would be up to the far right of this photo. The girls could have run there easily atop the bridge. Once down below it is exponentially more difficult. The likely route to Deer Creek is angling left from this photo, maybe 30 degrees.

Imgur

Heck, I'll include a second one. This is more the direct route to the creek. It's possible they may have angled somewhat left of this, given more open spaced in February than I saw in November. The hill from the prior photo is visible at top right. It would be 15 yards to your right during this fateful walk:

Imgur

If I had to guess I'd say Bridge Guy remained to the girls' left as they walked toward the creek, solely to keep them furthest away from their best escape direction.