Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #122

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I can understand why novice investigators assigned to a case might become emotionally involved from time to time, why they’re sometimes rotated, but Carter is the Superintendent of ISP, the entire State Police of Indiana. His role is far above any single unsolved murder case.

Indiana State Police - Wikipedia

At best he’s probably briefed of the Delphi investigation regularly. I can understand why he wants this case solved - that’s the role of ISP - but at his level, if he’s truly emotionally involved that’s not a good thing because police-work requires strong headed leadership and that doesn’t come from emotionally involved superintendents.

But as spokesperson it’s also his job to capture the interest of people otherwise they’d never get that one tip they need. It would be very difficult to do that without making an emotional plea, but there is a difference between that and one who’s become emotionally invested.

During most press conferences there’s usually reason to update the public about the victims, the crime scene, etc. In this case that’s long over. Introducing the new sketch took probably less than 5 minutes, maybe 2 minutes. Other than making a creative and dramatic chat directed to the killer, I can’t think of one other thing that could’ve added time given it was instructed questions from reporters wouldn’t be taken. But that chat turned the tables from anger and frustration over time wasted focusing on sketch #1 to “oh this is impressive progress, sketch #2 and Carter even knows who it is, he’s talking to him in code talk”, etc.

I’m sceptical and believe the chat with the killer was nothing more than a dramatic ploy to lengthen the PC that would’ve otherwise been over almost as soon as reporters walked in the door. JMO
I think a big part of that press conference was the almost off-handed but chilling statement that the killer could be in this room. I know a lot of posters don't agree that was even a possibility, the killer coming to the PC. I think it's a real possibility that he was. Never have I heard that before or since. The intensity of the LE in that room was palpable. IMO

Cops are human with human feelings especially when faced with such young girls being murdered while on a walk, out on a beautiful day enjoying themselves. I don't hold those emotions shown against ISP Carter. The world needs more honest and heartfelt emotion. AJMO
 
Problem is this old saw: "Never get emotionally involved...……."

Because it could mean disaster to do so.

He's old enuff and experienced enuff to know that...and to mentor others with that old saying.

Something is very wrong.
Of course LE gets emotional involved in cases. Truly how could they not? These are not robots, these are human beings who are in a vocation, protecting and serving the public. They go home every night with a load on their shoulders, to their children. I think expecting total detachment is unreasonable and I personally would want the people looking for my child's killer to be emotionally involved in finding the monster. AJMO
 
I've been following this thread for a long time-I have to ask-I always taught my son that if someone ever tried to grab him, get him in a car, etc.-to scream like Hell and run fast. Also if they do grab you-start kicking as hard as you can. This is what I was taught-never go willingly. Is this not what other people have learned?

You could teach your children this very well and it is no guarantee that when faced with the situation, they would be able to resist in the way you described. No one can predict his or her reaction, until it happens to you. Let's not blame the parents or the victims here.
 
You could teach your children this very well and it is no guarantee that when faced with the situation, they would be able to resist in the way you described. No one can predict his or her reaction, until it happens to you. Let's not blame the parents or the victims here.

Totally agree with your statement. I've heard several people say "If someone pulls a gun or knife on me, I will...". But, when you are looking down the barrel of a gun or blade of a knife, you do not know how you will react. I know this from personal experience. It very well may come down to how convincing, intimidating and/or menacing the person is holding the gun/knife. If you feel the person means what they say, you may do what they tell you. I can just imagine the terror two girls age 13 & 14 must have felt if this is the way this horrible crime happened. I have always thought when the "Down the hill" order was given to them, a weapon was being displayed. Otherwise, I doubt they would have complied.
 
I've been following this thread for a long time-I have to ask-I always taught my son that if someone ever tried to grab him, get him in a car, etc.-to scream like Hell and run fast. Also if they do grab you-start kicking as hard as you can. This is what I was taught-never go willingly. Is this not what other people have learned?
We have been speculating that the Perp had a gun or weapon on one of the girls, and that the other girl wouldn't leave her friend. Loyal to the end.
We also know that LE stated they put up a good fight. Unfortunately, it wasn't enough.

You are right, whether child or grownup, we should never comply with the orders of a Perp; the only hope is to run and zig-zag. Once a Perp takes physical control, the likelihood of survival is slim at best. These kids didn't have a chance, but apparently they went out fighting.

In the end, they will win posthumously, as the Perp will sit and rot in a tiny cell for the rest of his miserable life, and the girls will live on in our memories as brave heroines.

Amateur opinion and speculation
 
I've been following this thread for a long time-I have to ask-I always taught my son that if someone ever tried to grab him, get him in a car, etc.-to scream like Hell and run fast. Also if they do grab you-start kicking as hard as you can. This is what I was taught-never go willingly. Is this not what other people have learned?

Yes, according to the self-defence classes hosted in Delphi, if a child becomes the target of an abduction they’re taught the importance of not going willingly.

“It’s a very high statistic that if you leave your current location that you’ll most likely be killed,” Slifer said.

"Ninety percent of self defense is situational awareness — being aware of your surroundings,” he said....”
Self defense classes coming to Delphi
 
Of course LE gets emotional involved in cases. Truly how could they not? These are not robots, these are human beings who are in a vocation, protecting and serving the public. They go home every night with a load on their shoulders, to their children. I think expecting total detachment is unreasonable and I personally would want the people looking for my child's killer to be emotionally involved in finding the monster. AJMO
I also believe Superintendent Carter was somewhat emotional during the April 2019 PC. From what we've heard from more than one LE member close to the case is that this case stirs up emotion for many of them. But in the case of that April PC, I believe there was an added emotional element for the superintendent and that is the fact he stated that he earlier met with the families about the 'new direction'. I can't imagine that over 2 years of a massive multi-agency investigation and numerous media statements and then he sits down and basically has to tell the families, "Hey, we've been going in the wrong direction for 2 years." Those families probably have been reassured by LE over that time that this guy is going to be caught and "Today is the day." I wonder if the reactions of the families is the reason he asked the media to give them at least two weeks before talking to the families. He probably still wasn't over that emotional moment when he went through the press conference.
 
I also believe Superintendent Carter was somewhat emotional during the April 2019 PC. From what we've heard from more than one LE member close to the case is that this case stirs up emotion for many of them. But in the case of that April PC, I believe there was an added emotional element for the superintendent and that is the fact he stated that he earlier met with the families about the 'new direction'. I can't imagine that over 2 years of a massive multi-agency investigation and numerous media statements and then he sits down and basically has to tell the families, "Hey, we've been going in the wrong direction for 2 years." Those families probably have been reassured by LE over that time that this guy is going to be caught and "Today is the day." I wonder if the reactions of the families is the reason he asked the media to give them at least two weeks before talking to the families. He probably still wasn't over that emotional moment when he went through the press conference.
plus I think he didnt have a full speech written out but bullet points of what he wanted to say and it came off disjointed and unfocused MOO. He overacts to show he cares and it comes off to me as not genuine even though I believe he really does care. Again MOO
 
You could teach your children this very well and it is no guarantee that when faced with the situation, they would be able to resist in the way you described. No one can predict his or her reaction, until it happens to you. Let's not blame the parents or the victims here.
I told kids if they were out on their bikes and someone tried to snatch them, grab a hold of that bike, wrap your arms and legs around it while yelling your heads off.
 
Yes ;-)

It took me 2.5 years of wondering about it, to figure it out. I figured it was just a glitch, until I checked...

Street View views of that specific area exist for the "new" IN 25, Samuel Milroy Rd., Old IN 25/Old 25 (was IN 25 until 2014), and a short stretch of C.R. 300 right in that area. They are terribly outdated, in fact some of the stretches of road physically no longer exist.

This was a "eureka!" moment for me last Fall, once that became apparent to me, the difficulty my phone app from Google had in finding the turnoff for C.R, 300 made perfect sense. I'd used grid/GPS coordinates to get to the bridge area from Fort Wayne where I live, oh it got me to the general area just fine. The app couldn't tell me where to turn off of IN 25 for C.R. 300.

At 65-70 mph, I saw the big water tower that says "D E L P H I" in big letters, however I could not see a town, and then the road grade dips and curves towards the Freedom Bridge, so I was distracted a little by that. It wasn't until I was almost at the turn off that I slammed on the brakes for it, again the app didn't tell me anything.

When I'd tried to explain the difficulty of trying to find the bridge area/C.R. 300 from IN 25, it was a little difficult for me to explain what had happened and why. The lack of road signage on 25, combined with the lack of any signs along C.R. 300 indicating anything is really there, make it a challenge. I'd studied maps and YouTube videos for months, and still nearly missed the turnoff, and then nearly missed the spot where the girls were dropped off.

Then the app didn't tell me where to go. It was baffling to me, but makes sense, now. Also, there's no Street View for C.R. 300 under and then east of IN 25. So there's no real data you can use from Google to take you right to where the girls were dropped off, using the app.

Putting it all together, I can see why LE are insistent that BG knows the area in question. You have to know how to get to it, then he had to know what to do once he got there. Like he'd been there before.

Maybe many times before.

JMO
And here I thought it was 'just me' once again, not being able to figure out online thingies ;) lol
 
The Google maps app on my phone got flaky where the turn off is from IN 25 southbound, to C.R. 300 on the west side of 25, right after you pass under the Freedom Bridge.

I found in recent times that one big reason why it flaked out is Street View in that area has not been updated since 2008, 6 years before the highway was run through there. I encourage folks to check it for themselves, it's kinda freaky. Street View has not been updated to show the new alignments for the roads to the west of the highway, which are now Old IN 25, C.R. 300, and Samuel Miltory Road. On Street Vuew you can follow a section of Old 25 which no longer exists as a road, that freaked me out a little when i found it last year.

Translated: I was right by the turnoff when I figured I had to use it to get off the highway, Google maps did not alert me on my phone. Granted, I'd studied maps of that area for months previous to that day, but as we all know until you get to an unfamiliar place, you don't know how to navigate it.

I almost missed the turn.

Who didn't miss their turn on Feb. 13th, 2017, assuming they used IN 25? IN 25 would have been a near-perfect way to get away from there for our perp, and according to LE it sounds like he parked at the CPS building, mere feet from the highway.



I agree 100% with Sheriff Leazenby.

BG had to know how to get there, where to park, and he had to know that gorge.

JMO

@Falling Down, but what if he lived here twenty years ago, and then came, maybe, once, 7 years ago, to visit an ailing relative? And it was enough to take notice of the new developments. And maybe he did not even need that...

Some people have great 3-d intuition. One of my kids does. His friend is even better. The friend has severe dyslexia, my kid used to have some when younger. Maybe they both compensate.

I am the opposite, I am a very fast reader, and at the same time, as they say in my mother tongue, would lose my way in three pines (back yard is a given).

But these two kids, son and his friend, were born with compasses in their heads, they feel the way, intuitively. I honestly doubt they would have needed to visit Delphi even once to find their way around.

So, maybe BG is like this?

Which brings up the point of handedness again.

“Researchers have not yet found a genetic link between dyslexia and handedness and individuals with dyslexia, a learning difficulty that impacts on reading, writing and spelling abilities, are split 50:50 between right and lefthandedness.

However, there are fewer lefthanded people in the world. In fact, the difference is 90:10. This means that dyslexia may be more commonly found in lefthanded people but the relationship is not necessarily causal.”

Remember our earlier discussions about handedness of BG? If he is not local, but can find his way around well, is it possible that he could be left-handed and dyslexic? Just a wild guess.

(Reading Promethease interpretations of our genomes, I tend to think that good visuospatial ability may be linked not to dyslexia per se, but to carrying genes for dyslexia).
 
Once you go "down the hill", there's no going back up it. Literally.

In all the sleuth and what have you videos of the spot where they were forced down that hill/berm, I've never seen anyone attempt to walk up it.

The girls were caught by surprise at the end of the bridge, with their only "escape" being a run through somewhat-dense vegetation into the wooded area beyond the SE end of the bridge, the former railroad right-of-way. MOO, BG grabbed one of the girls and subdued her, which might explain why we have audio of the initial abduction. Even in a pocket or in Libby's hand, the voice of the killer could have been picked up.

Another hunch I have about the abduction is LE has a lot more audio, note they released "Guys...", two years after the murders. Gee, what was happening when he said that? Right after? What else was said? What orders were given?

I'm of the opinion there's a gap in our timeline, here, for the audio:

1. "Guys..." or "Guys?...", followed by him grabbing and subduing one of them, maybe tying them together, etc.

"Guys", he gets their attention while Libby's phone is comfortably held in her hand.

2. He orders them "...down the hill...". This part of the audio no doubt was terribly garbled, and had to be cleaned up by audio experts. Was the phone more firmly clutched in Libby's hand, inside a pocket maybe, or ??? There may have been a fairly decent amount of time between "Guys", which sounds near crystal-clear, to "down the hill", which sounds a little more distant, and definitely garbled. Many seconds? Half a minute? A lot was happening in a short period of time.

You're in the gorge, now. Trapped. Your choices on that road/driveway are to go either way on it, or further down into the gorge down another incline, to the flat area.

But you're still stuck in the gorge. In this specific case, maybe even tied to your friend.

The section of driveway under the SE end of the bridge has a dip to it. So either way on that driveway, at some point you're going up hill, either to the house, or C.R. 625.

Up hill is a barrier and slows people down, especially people in an unfamiliar area where they may not know where up hill leads, or can't see where it leads. You can't see the house, any house, from that spot in the gorge. They could see it when they crossed the creek if they'd turned their heads to the right, but go ahead and scream. Nobody's home. They had to walk approximately 450 feet or more to the edge of the creek, at that spot BG already has lots of cover and concealment, to use a term we used in the USMC.

BG knew nobody was home. How did he know this? Did he know the owner is a snowbird? Did he know the routines of the family member or members who would stop by to check on the place?

BG also knew the terrain. People could have been there many times beforehand, but never gotten used to the terrain within the gorge. IMO he knew general distances, times to walk them, etc. Difficulty. What kind of foot wear to wear. Indications from witnesses during the search and Libby's sister show that one of Libby's shoes came off, my guess would be the suction of the muck on the north side of Deer Creek pulled the shoe off.

BG's shoe or boot never came off, not the entire time he was out there that day. BG had it all planned out, nothing would stop him from murdering that day.

From "down the hill", at that very spot, the girls could have looked around and been disoriented and had no idea where they were. It's a completely different world than on top of a bridge 30-60+ feet up. IMO they most likely had never touched that spot, like most people who have been to Monon High Bridge and walked across it. Walked across it for years. You might walk across it for many years, despite it being private property and hazardous, but you get to the end, turn around, and go back. No reason to go down the hill, and besides, once you go down it, now you have to go back up it, and back across the bridge.

Why? It's private property down there, and besides, what is there to do once you get down that hill?

Who, as a perp, would know this? Someone who has been there before many times, and has observed people walking across the bridge, and walking the trails. Every serial killer I've studied, studies his or her prey, or just people in general, looking for people to victimize. They also look for what else?

Others in the general area, and what their typical behavior entails. Anyone who looks like a LEO or could "play the part", people who could be armed/could defend themselves, and other people who might "get in the way" of their fantasy or fantasies.
This guy had it all planned out, MOO only I bet he planned it months in advance, not hours, days, or even weeks beforehand. Months.

I had to bend my head around the bends in the creek early in the case, to get a feel for the area and how those bends probably helped our perp. The vegetation along the creek, combined with the bends, the 'blurred background' one would see in a wooded area with hills, or a valley/gorge, etc., offer perfect concealment. One cannot see the CS from the bridge, even in February. He planned all that out.

He planned it well beforehand, then he came back.

Why did he come back? The elements of that gorge, and the fact that IN 25, which opened in 2014, offered a quick escape route away from that immediate area, and he didn't have to drive past busy, open businesses and other places where people would have seen him driving by, turning a corner, etc. Andersons wasn't even open, and they have lots of surveillance at that terminal complex when they're busy.

JMO
Chilling and sobering, all you lay out. Makes me think on why LE went nationwide with the billboards right off the bat. Another poster mentioned too that when going to visit the area how it's not an obvious area with signs to out-of- towners traveling the highways, even while using GPS you could go right on by if not careful. You would have thought early on investigators would have been convinced it was a local. What do you think threw them in the opposite direction that two years later they finally adjusted and started looking more local?
 
Yes, according to the self-defence classes hosted in Delphi, if a child becomes the target of an abduction they’re taught the importance of not going willingly.

“It’s a very high statistic that if you leave your current location that you’ll most likely be killed,” Slifer said.

"Ninety percent of self defense is situational awareness — being aware of your surroundings,” he said....”
Self defense classes coming to Delphi
Always being aware of your surroundings and a way out...something my Dad drummed into me from a very early age. So important. It breaks the heart to think little Abby voiced wanting to get away from the bridge but the girls thought they couldn't or shouldn't (trespass on private land) because the trail ended. (Per what Ana William's said in Renner 360 interview)
 
The locals don't necessarily know more than we do. That's an invalid assumption.
-
The comments that you mentioned were not necessarily true; they were made early on in, before LE knew anything, in order to forestall mass panic within the community.
I believe the locals always know more than is being reported by the MM. It only makes sense that they would. Locals drive the roads and see where the searches occured, there were definitely more than just the two reported about. Locals also know who's houses or places of business the investigators visited just by seeing LE in town, here and there. It all gets talked about and info gets shared. Just the fact that locals were involved in finding the bodies means those people know more than us here discussing things reported. They know their own people better, the oddballs or straight up weirdos in their community better than outsiders. I think you discount the know how of smalls towns. They may keep their mouths closed about things the majority of the time but some are gossips for sure.
 
It's got nothing to do with wanting shares. Just trying to help solve the case but police don't except my enhancement. My enhancements are ridiculed by the professionals. Anyways I'm thinking about closing my forum account.
 
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Other than enlarging the original images, sketches, videos sourced via MSM or LE, no embellishments, enhancements or alterations of any kind are allowed at Websleuths.

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b) that the crime, per LE, is “specific to the individuals”

That's an interesting statement - what do you make of it?

Suggests to me that the perp had motivation to kill ONLY one or both of the girls. To me that suggests it isn't random but premeditated.

For instance, a spouse kills their spouse because they're having an affair, want to start anew, want the life insurance money, do not wish to pay spousal support/child support etc: so that's my idea of 'specific to the individual(s)'

The community at large need not fear this particular spouse killer will go and kill YOUR spouse too, lol - you get my drift I imagine

Now, I'd been thinking the utter opposite: this is someone who may have planned to kill someone (should really say girls/women) & perhaps where they would, or at least ready to do so at any given chance they foresaw. MAYBE they got a bee in their bonnet about Abby or Libby or both.....but they could easily have been some other girls
To me: another way of saying this is a person who could, maybe has, killed again.....

Hope this is clear...

Because if this was specific to Abby & Libby there must be a clear motivation aside from being a psycho serial killer type....

JMO
 
Crime of opportunity OR planned out?

Be gentle; I did not follow this case from the start. I typically try not to duplicate to avoid unnecessary posts/pages, but this one looks like the exception.

IMO, BG “looks” older than the second sketch; dresses older; walks older; sounds older. I also can’t shake that this is broad daylight on a Monday early afternoon and the perp just so happened to be hanging out there instead of at work or watching Jeopardy. I guess if the FBI truly thinks we are dealing with a younger individual, then he may be a drifter or work nights somewhere. What are the bigger graveyard shift plants/jobs in or near Delphi? I’m not local.
 
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Chilling and sobering, all you lay out. Makes me think on why LE went nationwide with the billboards right off the bat. Another poster mentioned too that when going to visit the area how it's not an obvious area with signs to out-of- towners traveling the highways, even while using GPS you could go right on by if not careful. You would have thought early on investigators would have been convinced it was a local. What do you think threw them in the opposite direction that two years later they finally adjusted and started looking more local?

I agree with all of the above pertaining to the area in question, I don't follow the idea that this area is easy to find like people sometimes claim. Drive through there at 65MPH and you'd be hard-pressed to know Delphi is even there, going southbound, except for the signed exit for U.S. 421, which happens to be the main drag through town. Northbound, same thing.

One might assume the big grain complex is the reason for the turnoff on to C.R. 300, if they were paying attention to what's over there, from 25. Other than that, the Freedom Bridge and the water tower are the only real landmarks.

You have to know there's a bridge somewhere off that highway, how to get to the area near to the bridge, and where to park. How would anyone have known that the morning and afternoon hours of 2.13.17?

Now what got them to switch directions, go to the different sketch, and claim BG is local is something I've wondered about, however Supt. Carter vaguely alluded to "information" they had come across, maybe he used the word 'intel' too I don't remember, that got them to switch direction in the case. During the 4.22.17 PC.

JMO
 
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