Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #123

[Dotrat]

Yes, you and I are thinking alike on this. After endless discussion about sometimes ridiculous things , why do we hear crickets about this SUV?

After reading about the vehicle it was like my jaw dropped and then my head exploded!! I was like WHAT? WHAT??
Now I have been trying to think who would have sooooo many decals on their vehicle and what kind of decals? Are they like for hunting/fishing, an alma mata from a college a brand of car like a Ford or Chevy decal, or permit parking decals what about my child is an honor student, a christian fish symbol, political affiliation, there are so many and my opinion is that the kind of decals would be so helpful, I really hope we get more details about this soon!

 

[sunshineray]

I'd love to wager a dark SUV was not there, under that description or any description. Provide a video of that drive and there will be nothing at the lot. As a gambler you learn to ignore noise. If you pay attention to noise then you are vulnerable to all the people who watch every play of every game and overreact in unison. Meanwhile nothing has changed. It's still the same team from last week.

I ignored Kelsi's 2017 insistence of 20 kids at the drop off point, and I'll ignore this SUV mention. If she comes up with something else in 2022 I'll ignore that also. That may sound harsh but it is necessary in maintaining a real world perspective. There is nobody on these trails. That's why this spot was picked in the first place. That's why this attack succeeded.

I feel genuinely sorry for anyone who listens to nutcases like Harvey Carroll on YouTube with his 70 people at or near the bridge at the time of the murders.

Kelsi is focusing on the drop off point because she doesn't want to think about the area a few hundred yards further on County Road 300. That's where she may indeed have driven past an involved vehicle. I'm not sure if Kelsi went directly to Dairy Queen or to see her boyfriend after the drop off. Either way, it makes sense she proceeded past the abandoned building, and wasn't paying any attention in the slightest.

Kelsi rightfully wasn't paying any attention in the slightest. There was greater likelihood that someone at Dairy Queen would bicker over a Blizzard than anything bad would happen to her sister Libby or friend Abby.

Thou dost protest the white noise too much. Much can be learned by attention paid to the unusual and the out of the ordinary. Kelsei reliving, remembering a fateful day's occurrences deserves less mockery from those who weren't there.

 

[JDough]

Initial and Acronym Guide for Abby Williams and Liberty German Discussions

Abbreviations for Victims/Location
AW- Abby Williams
LG- Liberty German
MHB- Monon High Bridge- location of murders
RL- Ron Logan/Property owner where Girls were found
FSG- Flannel Shirt Guy (whom Derrick spoke with when attempting to find Girls on 02/13/17)
BG- The Suspect

Abbreviations for Family Members
AW- Anna Williams/Abby's Mother
DG- Derrick German/Libby's Father
CT- Carrie Timmons/Libby's Mother
KG- Kelsi German/Libby's Sister
MP- Mike Patty/Libby's Grandfather
BP- Becky Patty/Libby's Grandmother
CP- Cody Patty/Libby's Uncle by adoption
TG- Tara German/Libby's Aunt (Works for BP)

Law Enforcement (LE)/City Officials
CC- Carrol County
ISP- Indiana State Police
CCS- Carrol County Sheriff's Office
FBI- Federal Bureau of Investigation
DC- Doug Carter/ISP Superintendent
TL- Tobe Leazenby/Carrol County Sherriff
JH- Jerry Holeman/ISP Lead Investigator
KR- Kim Riley/CC Spokesman Sheriff's Office
RI- Robert Ives/Former CC Prosecuter
NM- Nicholas McLeland/Current CC Prosecutor
SE- Shane Evans/Delphi Mayor

Legal Terms
POI- Person of Interest
MO- Modus Operandi
RSO- Registered Sex Offender
TOD- Time of Death
COD- Cause of Death
SK- Serial Killer

Approved YouTube Channels
GH- Gray Hughes (Numerous family interviews, crime animation, and maps)
SR- Scott Reisch / Crime Talk (Newly Added)

Approved Podcasts
DTH- Down The Hill (HLN)
Scene of the Crime- Kelsi German

MSM- Main Stream Media
Any reputable television station, Twitter Account, or FB (Facebook) account (does not include information obtained on social media from unauthorized groups, victim accounts, rumors, etc.).

I hope I've included everything. If not; we can add to the list.

 

[sunshineray]

Initial and Acronym Guide for Abby Williams and Liberty German Discussions

Abbreviations for Victims/Location
AW- Abby Williams
LG- Liberty German
MHB- Monon High Bridge- location of murders
RL- Ron Logan/Property owner where Girls were found
FSG- Flannel Shirt Guy (whom Derrick spoke with when attempting to find Girls on 02/13/17)
BG- The Suspect

Abbreviations for Family Members
AW- Anna Williams/Abby's Mother
DG- Derrick German/Libby's Father
CT- Carrie Timmons/Libby's Mother
KG- Kelsi German/Libby's Sister
MP- Mike Patty/Libby's Grandfather
BP- Becky Patty/Libby's Grandmother
CP- Cody Patty/Libby's Uncle by adoption
TG- Tara German/Libby's Aunt (Works for BP)

Law Enforcement (LE)/City Officials
CC- Carrol County
ISP- Indiana State Police
CCS- Carrol County Sheriff's Office
FBI- Federal Bureau of Investigation
DC- Doug Carter/ISP Superintendent
TL- Tobe Leazenby/Carrol County Sherriff
JH- Jerry Holeman/ISP Lead Investigator
KR- Kim Riley/CC Spokesman Sheriff's Office
RI- Robert Ives/Former CC Prosecuter
NM- Nicholas McLeland/Current CC Prosecutor
SE- Shane Evans/Delphi Mayor

Legal Terms
POI- Person of Interest
MO- Modus Operandi
RSO- Registered Sex Offender
TOD- Time of Death
COD- Cause of Death
SK- Serial Killer

Approved YouTube Channels
GH- Gray Hughes (Numerous family interviews, crime animation, and maps)
SR- Scott Reisch / Crime Talk (Newly Added)

Approved Podcasts
DTH- Down The Hill (HLN)
Scene of the Crime- Kelsi German

MSM- Main Stream Media
Any reputable television station, Twitter Account, or FB (Facebook) account (does not include information obtained on social media from unauthorized groups, victim accounts, rumors, etc.).

I hope I've included everything. If not; we can add to the list.

Well done! One other is JR-James Renner 360 interviews with the family members.

 

[ReadySet]

bbm

I don't think there are many that have more of a "real world perspective" than KG.
And jmo you don't have a right to say what she does or doesn't think.

I'd love to wager a dark SUV was not there, under that description or any description. Provide a video of that drive and there will be nothing at the lot. As a gambler you learn to ignore noise. If you pay attention to noise then you are vulnerable to all the people who watch every play of every game and overreact in unison. Meanwhile nothing has changed. It's still the same team from last week.

I ignored Kelsi's 2017 insistence of 20 kids at the drop off point, and I'll ignore this SUV mention. If she comes up with something else in 2022 I'll ignore that also. That may sound harsh but it is necessary in maintaining a real world perspective. There is nobody on these trails. That's why this spot was picked in the first place. That's why this attack succeeded.

I feel genuinely sorry for anyone who listens to nutcases like Harvey Carroll on YouTube with his 70 people at or near the bridge at the time of the murders.

Kelsi is focusing on the drop off point because she doesn't want to think about the area a few hundred yards further on County Road 300. That's where she may indeed have driven past an involved vehicle. I'm not sure if Kelsi went directly to Dairy Queen or to see her boyfriend after the drop off. Either way, it makes sense she proceeded past the abandoned building, and wasn't paying any attention in the slightest.

Kelsi rightfully wasn't paying any attention in the slightest. There was greater likelihood that someone at Dairy Queen would bicker over a Blizzard than anything bad would happen to her sister Libby or friend Abby.

 

[JDough]

Well done! One other is JR-James Renner 360 interviews with the family members.

Ahh yes. I forgot that one; thank you!

 

[St. Anthony2017]

After reading about the vehicle it was like my jaw dropped and then my head exploded!! I was like WHAT? WHAT??
Now I have been trying to think who would have sooooo many decals on their vehicle and what kind of decals? Are they like for hunting/fishing, an alma mata from a college a brand of car like a Ford or Chevy decal, or permit parking decals what about my child is an honor student, a christian fish symbol, political affiliation, there are so many and my opinion is that the kind of decals would be so helpful, I really hope we get more details about this soon!

Now that Kelsi has given us a new clue to investigate I think someone local should ask the local tv news to report this new information. It may jog someone’s memory. It certainly couldn’t hurt unless she wasn’t supposed to let that information out.

 

[somequestions]

Offenders often tend to interject themselves into investigations that's why he mentioned it, its all part of the post offensive behavior of an offender whos anxiety over being apprehended blurs their thinking so they try to gain intel into what police are doing by hanging around.

The police have most likely already interviewed him, or his name has at least come up, but theres nothing to bridge the gap between "Suspect" and "POI", thats where releasing information comes in.

The more info thats out , the more it may spark someones recall or confirm in their mind the suspicion thay have about someone.

They usually live with parents or some type of guardian figure, sometimes theres a signifigant other , but its in our nature, especially as parents, to deny feelings about those close to us particularly when it pertains to something as horrid as the stalking (rape?) and murder of 2 innocent children. In their mind though theres blanks, and theyve probably even raised suspicion about it before, they fill it in with something "normal"

"Yeah he was late getting home that day , but you know his car always has trouble" .."He said he hit a deer, he had blood on his clothes " ... they tend to deny things that are unpleasant.

Even oddball behavior like getting rid of, extensively cleaning or altering their vehicle , or something like burning their clothes, they find ways to "normalize it despite a nagging feeling by those around them that "this isnt right"

Even if all the sudden theres a huge shift in their personality, they themselves are now on the "hunt for the killer", they're up all hours of the night ,they're drinking or smoking more, they may use drugs more, they may eat more , or less, they have to keep checking on the case, they talk about it incessantly, they seem nervous when they do , when a composite is released, they all the sudden alter their appearance, they exhibit a "dutiful need" to go help, when all their life they havent ever done ANYTHING to help ANYONE but all the sudden theres this overwhelming call to duty over the murder of 2 kids that they mysteriously werent home for at the time it occurred.

Or all the sudden out of nowhere, "Mom Im taking this job in another state I gotta leave asap"... "I got in trouble with some bad people I have to leave now" is a story ive heard. The other is the old "I gotta get out of this town when things like that are happening"

Because the overwhelming majority of them arent in any type of supervised status at the time (paroll/probation etc..) They just pack up and go .

And in rare cases, whomever they are living with KNOW they did it and decide theyll help!.

Delphi isnt an area rife with murder cases, and I feel the dept there is doing the best it can with what it has, it just needs a few pieces, but I also feel that could be being held back by their decision to NOT release certain things to the public .

I did not know so many took an interest in their crimes. I thought that was Websleuths members.

So maybe there is a possibility this killer could return to the Monon High Bridge area crime scene? I thought in this case that was more unlikely only because of the man on the bridge being videotaped.

I understand the police cannot release more information because they have to protect the integrity of the investigation. But until we know more all we can do is speculate as to a profile of this individual.

At some point releasing some more information to find the killer may outweigh the hassle of dealing with the thousands of bogus tips that come along with it. It is up to LE to decide when that point is. In a case where the mantra is "Today is the Day" I wonder how long that will take.
We have to assume that LE has good information and is doing their best to solve the case.

 

[JDough]

*****Updated to include JR information, and links for YouTube/Podcasts listed.*****

Added to Media, Maps, and Timelines (link can be found on page one of every thread)

Initial/Acronym Guide for Abby Williams and Liberty German Discussions

Abbreviations for Victims/Location
AW- Abby Williams
LG- Liberty German
MHB- Monon High Bridge- location of murders
RL- Ron Logan/Property owner where Girls were found
FSG- Flannel Shirt Guy (whom Derrick spoke with when attempting to find Girls on 02/13/17)
BG- The Suspect

Abbreviations for Family Members
AW- Anna Williams/Abby's Mother
DG- Derrick German/Libby's Father
CT- Carrie Timmons/Libby's Mother
KG- Kelsi German/Libby's Sister
MP- Mike Patty/Libby's Grandfather
BP- Becky Patty/Libby's Grandmother
CP- Cody Patty/Libby's Uncle by adoption
TG- Tara German/Libby's Aunt (Works for BP)

Law Enforcement (LE)/City Officials
CC- Carrol County
ISP- Indiana State Police
CCS- Carrol County Sheriff's Office
FBI- Federal Bureau of Investigation
DC- Doug Carter/ISP Superintendent
TL- Tobe Leazenby/Carrol County Sherriff
JH- Jerry Holeman/ISP Lead Investigator
KR- Kim Riley/CC Spokesman Sheriff's Office
RI- Robert Ives/Former CC Prosecuter
NM- Nicholas McLeland/Current CC Prosecutor
SE- Shane Evans/Delphi Mayor

Legal Terms
POI- Person of Interest
MO- Modus Operandi
RSO- Registered Sex Offender
TOD- Time of Death
COD- Cause of Death
SK- Serial Killer

Approved YouTube Channels
GH- Gray Hughes (Numerous family interviews, crime animation, and maps)
YouTube
SR- Scott Reisch / Crime Talk (Newly Added)
Crime Talk
JR- James Renner (Numerous family interviews and articles pertaining to the Delphi murders)
JamesRenner

Approved Podcasts
DTH- Down The Hill (HLN)
https://www.downthehillpodcast.com
Scene of the Crime- Kelsi German
Scene of the Crime: Delphi
*Please note: You must scroll to the bottom of the page for first episode, and work your way up.

MSM- Main Stream Media
Any reputable television station, newspaper, Twitter Account, official news and information portal for Abby and Libby (Abby and Libby.org – Abigail Williams & Liberty German News / Information), and any official FB (Facebook) account for reputable MSM, (LE/FBI, local news station or newspaper pages, etc.). *Please note that this does not include information obtained on social media from unauthorized groups, victim/family accounts, rumors, etc.

 

[jellybeanz]

This is the one case I really want to see solved.

 

[somequestions]

Let's use that specific example. If these murders were committed on a trail leading to an overlook on Grand Canyon, where would law enforcement assume the killer was from? Would they insist Williams? That would be preposterous. There would be considerably more of a widespread acceptance albeit focus on regional.

I don't understand the spotlight on Delphi. That's what I am saying. Delphi seems trivial compared to other variables in this case. Maybe it's because I have traveled extensively all my life. My parents used to take us out of school a month early once in a while so we could go on a full 3-month trip before my dad had to be back at work in August. You learn that little towns come and go in a flash. One time we happened to have car trouble in Worland, Wyoming and got stuck for several days before the necessary part could be delivered. Another time it was the same thing in a small town in Kentucky.

Heck, neither Abby nor Libby are buried within Delphi. Abby is buried in Monticello and Libby in Pittsburg. Yet our killer has to be from Delphi. It strikes me as throwing away all sense of probability and common sense.

State Road 25 is more decisive in this case than proximity to Delphi. It enables fantastic unvideotaped getaway in either direction. The poster who does the Delphi timeline on Reddit posted recently that Abby and Libby would still be alive if not for the construction of State Road 25. I absolutely agree. That was the tipping point variable that provided an aspiring killer the ideal combo of a remote lowly traveled trail smack on top of the greatest escape route of all time.

I agree with you that I do not understand the emphasis on the killer being from Delphi or the surrounding local area. My example was meant to show that, in my opinion, we look differently at a location and its relevance based on that location itself.

In the case of the Grand Canyon National Park, you would have to consider everyone right down to tourists who go there from different countries to visit. Now that would be a broad investigation. I doubt anyone would think the killer has to be a "local".

It helps to have actually seen a crime scene area in person. A young woman studying forensic psychology posted a video on youtube where she did a walk through of the Monon High Bridge area crime scene in August 2017 and gave some good ideas. There have been other various videos posted that give a good overview, but that will probably never be a substitute for being there and seeing it for yourself.

From everything I have seen in the videos it seems like a lot of people believe that in order to traverse across the Monon High Bridge takes some experience and therefore that is why so many people believe the man on the bridge must be a local.

So what you are saying is other variables matter. I agree. When the situation changes, lets say for example after over three years, so does the probability?

I thought police would have this case solved almost immediately like everyone else. And I thought the killer would be from Delphi, Indiana or the surrounding area too.

 

[somequestions]

I agree with you that I do not understand the emphasis on the killer being from Delphi or the surrounding local area. My example was meant to show that, in my opinion, we look differently at a location and its relevance based on that location itself.

In the case of the Grand Canyon National Park, you would have to consider everyone right down to tourists who go there from different countries to visit. Now that would be a broad investigation. I doubt anyone would think the killer has to be a "local".

It helps to have actually seen a crime scene area in person. A young woman studying forensic psychology posted a video on youtube where she did a walk through of the Monon High Bridge area crime scene in August 2017 and gave some good ideas. There have been other various videos posted that give a good overview, but that will probably never be a substitute for being there and seeing it for yourself.

From everything I have seen in the videos it seems like a lot of people believe that in order to traverse across the Monon High Bridge takes some experience and therefore that is why so many people believe the man on the bridge must be a local.

So what you are saying is other variables matter. I agree. When the situation changes, lets say for example after over three years, so does the probability?

I thought police would have this case solved almost immediately like everyone else. And I thought the killer would be from Delphi, Indiana or the surrounding area too.

The point of my post above is that this is kind of like a math problem about statistics concerning how people psychologically view locations. Change does matter(in my opinion). But human beings are not always logical in how they think or make decisions. And in a forum like this where you do not have all the information, it will certainly affect how you look at a particular crime and how you form your opinions.

You cannot forget the human factor in anything. There is no equation that solves murder.

 

[Betty P]

Let's use that specific example. If these murders were committed on a trail leading to an overlook on Grand Canyon, where would law enforcement assume the killer was from? Would they insist Williams? That would be preposterous. There would be considerably more of a widespread acceptance albeit focus on regional.

I don't understand the spotlight on Delphi. That's what I am saying. Delphi seems trivial compared to other variables in this case. Maybe it's because I have traveled extensively all my life. My parents used to take us out of school a month early once in a while so we could go on a full 3-month trip before my dad had to be back at work in August. You learn that little towns come and go in a flash. One time we happened to have car trouble in Worland, Wyoming and got stuck for several days before the necessary part could be delivered. Another time it was the same thing in a small town in Kentucky.

Heck, neither Abby nor Libby are buried within Delphi. Abby is buried in Monticello and Libby in Pittsburg. Yet our killer has to be from Delphi. It strikes me as throwing away all sense of probability and common sense.

State Road 25 is more decisive in this case than proximity to Delphi. It enables fantastic unvideotaped getaway in either direction. The poster who does the Delphi timeline on Reddit posted recently that Abby and Libby would still be alive if not for the construction of State Road 25. I absolutely agree. That was the tipping point variable that provided an aspiring killer the ideal combo of a remote lowly traveled trail smack on top of the greatest escape route of all time.

I think the sheriff and others are referring to someone who is local, meaning living within, say, 50 or 60 miles of Delphi.

Pretty sure criminals who attack children usually spend a lot of time driving around, looking for victims, out of the way places to commit crimes, etc. They prowl around, meaning they're committing crimes in nearby communities. It's not limited to Delphi.

 

[zencompass]

I think the sheriff and others are referring to someone who is local, meaning living within, say, 50 or 60 miles of Delphi.

Pretty sure criminals who attack children usually spend a lot of time driving around, looking for victims, out of the way places to commit crimes, etc. They prowl around, meaning they're committing crimes in nearby communities. It's not limited to Delphi.

Dear @Betty P,

Yes, you are absolutely right - they drive around, "hunting" for their victims, especially in "out of the way" areas! It's so gut wrenching to even think that they do this but we know they do.

Perhaps the unusual factor of their particular school being closed for an "owed snow day" made them think that the perpetrator was local because he was aware of this?

That, plus local knowledge that teens like to go to that trail/bridge. It's possible that these factors played into L.E. thinking the perpetrator was "local".

 

[Falling Down]

Never mind.

I'm kind of perplexed by the vehicle Kelsi says she saw.

Why bring it up, now?

 

[TheVisual]

My hunch is LE would have had to have given Libby the green light to state her recollection of the vehicle. Pure speculation/MOO about it, but that's what I think.

Thanks for this post, it's virtually identical to what I'd wanted to post last night but I wanted to see if anyone else was thinking what I was thinking.

JMO

You do mean Kelsi, don't you? I do wish Libby could tell us!

 

[MistyWaters]

In the year 2016, preceding the murders, fundraising occurred in order to “Save” the Monon High Bridge. Considering this, it can’t be assumed the existence and location of the bridge was essentially unknown except to locals. It would seem natural to me if that garnered the attention of others who had no direct connection to Delphi.

It would just take the notice of one homicidal maniac upon discovering the lure of its peace and tranquility to turn a fantasy into a violent reality when the opportunity presented itself, and who lived far enough away from his home territory to ensure nobody recognized him. JMO

This 2016 article was published by a Chicago MSM
Group aims to turn old railroad bridge into trail crossing

2016 - This refers to a FB page and GF donation acct.
Save the Monon High Bridge | Carroll County Comet

The bridge was also listed on Indiana’s 10 Most Endangered Landmarks List in 2016.
Monon High Bridge, Delphi

 

[Falling Down]

The location where K dropped the girls off was not the parking lot near the abandoned CPS building. I don’t have a map at hand but it was near the Gerard Nature Reserve off County Road W300N and was also closer to the High Bridge. Later reports indicate that access has since been closed.

Several of GreyHuze’s videos also illustrate the drop off location iirc.

You do mean Kelsi, don't you? I do wish Libby could tell us!

Yes sorry about that.

I deleted the content of my post.

Quite frankly I'm both perplexed and concerned about the vehicle comment, and furthermore there was nothing specific said about it, and the interviewer didn't ask.

JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

My hunch is LE would have had to have given Libby the green light to state her recollection of the vehicle. Pure speculation/MOO about it, but that's what I think.

Thanks for this post, it's virtually identical to what I'd wanted to post last night but I wanted to see if anyone else was thinking what I was thinking.

JMO

Libby is one of the victims. I think you mean Kelsi?

I sure would hope this is not true. IMO that’d be a totally gutless and incompetent police department who would needlessly place a witness at risk in that way. If LE wanted to get a message out that a certain vehicle might be associated to the suspect they needn’t name any person who witnessed it, the same as they haven’t released the names of witnesses involved in either of the two sketches. Their job is to protect witnesses, not to use them to deliver messages to killers.

ETA Sorry, I just noticed you edited your post but as the possibility of LE using Kelsi really bristles my emotions, I’ve not deleted mine.

 

[zencompass]

Never mind.

I'm kind of perplexed by the vehicle Kelsi says she saw.

Why bring it up, now?

Dear @Falling Down,

This is a great question - why bring it up now? Is there a purpose to this that we aren't privy to?

There are so many facets to this case that are confusing, at least to me.

Sometimes a lead seems to start up - and then it falls away.

My hope is so great that this case will be solved.