Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #123

[Falling Down]

Let's use that specific example. If these murders were committed on a trail leading to an overlook on Grand Canyon, where would law enforcement assume the killer was from? Would they insist Williams? That would be preposterous. There would be considerably more of a widespread acceptance albeit focus on regional.

I don't understand the spotlight on Delphi. That's what I am saying. Delphi seems trivial compared to other variables in this case. Maybe it's because I have traveled extensively all my life. My parents used to take us out of school a month early once in a while so we could go on a full 3-month trip before my dad had to be back at work in August. You learn that little towns come and go in a flash. One time we happened to have car trouble in Worland, Wyoming and got stuck for several days before the necessary part could be delivered. Another time it was the same thing in a small town in Kentucky.

Heck, neither Abby nor Libby are buried within Delphi. Abby is buried in Monticello and Libby in Pittsburg. Yet our killer has to be from Delphi. It strikes me as throwing away all sense of probability and common sense.

State Road 25 is more decisive in this case than proximity to Delphi. It enables fantastic unvideotaped getaway in either direction. The poster who does the Delphi timeline on Reddit posted recently that Abby and Libby would still be alive if not for the construction of State Road 25. I absolutely agree. That was the tipping point variable that provided an aspiring killer the ideal combo of a remote lowly traveled trail smack on top of the greatest escape route of all time.

^^^^THIS

I have not viewed Reddit posts recently, I'm glad someone brought up the highway.

Having been there I agree the highway was a huge factor in the case.

I have a sneaking suspicion BG took the "new" highway into consideration in his planning of these crimes, in fact it could be that
once it was built he figured it would play well into pulling off his fantasy. The way the roads were before the highway would have left only two spots someone could have parked. The CPS building area, and the tiny parking area on the M property, which is the general area where the girls were dropped off. When the murders happened,

You can't even see Delphi from the highway, I had no clue where Delphi really was, or how to get there even, until I got to it where C.R. 200 crosses U.S. 421 after having driven C.R. 300 and C.R. 425.

Delphi has no bearing on this case whatsoever, it just happens to be the nearest population center, in fact the murders happened in Deer Creek Twp.

After the highway was built, there were 3 places to park: West end of the Freedom Bridge, the parking area there built when the highway went through. The CPS building. The tiny parking area off of C.R. 300.

I'm sure people parked along 300 back then, before the murders, but with the traffic on the trails and what have you I doubt that happened very often.

JMO

 

[Falling Down]

Dear @Falling Down,

This is a great question - why bring it up now? Is there a purpose to this that we aren't privy to?

There are so many facets to this case that are confusing, at least to me.

Sometimes a lead seems to start up - and then it falls away.

I see a big problem with it. Reason being is now it open up yet another Pandora's Box in this case, for the people following it.

I have no idea if this is a factual account of what may have been by the entrance to the trail off of 300. I've seen it, it's very unassuming, and there would have been room for maybe 3 vehicles on the left-hand side of the drive off of 300.

The drive I speak of was a driveway for a property down at the creek decades ago, it crossed the RR tracks when they were there, and now is the Gerard Trail.

The only vehicle mentioned so far by LE was at the CPS building.

JMO

 

[zencompass]

^^^^THIS

I have not viewed Reddit posts recently, I'm glad someone brought up the highway.

Having been there I agree the highway was a huge factor in the case.

I have a sneaking suspicion BG took the "new" highway into consideration in his planning of these crimes, in fact it could be that
once it was built he figured it would play well into pulling off his fantasy. The way the roads were before the highway would have left only two spots someone could have parked. The CPS building area, and the tiny parking area on the M property, which is the general area where the girls were dropped off. When the murders happened,

You can't even see Delphi from the highway, I had no clue where Delphi really was, or how to get there even, until I got to it where C.R. 200 crosses U.S. 421 after having driven C.R. 300 and C.R. 425.

Delphi has no bearing on this case whatsoever, it just happens to be the nearest population center, in fact the murders happened in Deer Creek Twp.

After the highway was built, there were 3 places to park: West end of the Freedom Bridge, the parking area there built when the highway went through. The CPS building. The tiny parking area off of C.R. 300.

I'm sure people parked along 300 back then, before the murders, but with the traffic on the trails and what have you I doubt that happened very often.

JMO

Dear @Falling Down,

Thank you so much for sharing your first-hand experience being in that area!

Your descriptions help me visualize the area there and have answered some of my questions.

You are greatly appreciated!

 

[somequestions]

Kelsi was 17, I think, when the crime happened. People misspeak, forget, remember, misquote, get simple information wrong. It does not mean anything. Remember the human factor. We do not always get everything correct. Maybe we remember things later on or not at all.

I know I have misspoken about things numerous times without meaning to. Or I remember something later that I did not remember initially. Or I did not remember something that everyone else thought I should remember.

She seems very truthful to me.

 

[MistyWaters]

Dear @Falling Down,

This is a great question - why bring it up now? Is there a purpose to this that we aren't privy to?

There are so many facets to this case that are confusing, at least to me.

Sometimes a lead seems to start up - and then it falls away.

My hope is so great that this case will be solved.

I found the confusion around the changing timeline downright confusing. For months it was established fact they were dropped off at 1pm, then later the family claimed Kelsi didn’t leave the house with the girls until 1:30pm. As she was apparently talking on her cellphone with her boyfriend as she was dropping the girls off, wouldn’t the appx time of that call and when she left the house been known at the onset? Then initially BP said the girls were allowed to go as long as they had a ride there and back - arranged prior to leaving. But later it changed to Libby called her dad either enroute or when they were parked at the drop off location. If he knew he called Libby’s cellphone as he was getting close at precisely 3:11pm, then again when he arrived at 3:14pm, why wasn’t it known when he talked to Libby prior to that to arrange the ride home? Early on LE indicated they were to be picked up at 5pm iirc, where that came from I have no idea. But if the family members directly involved weren’t certain of exact timeline information, what was LE working with?

I’m certain there was a lot of trauma involved in the aftermath so I give them all a pass but on the surface, considering they all lived in the same household, I thought it unusual it didn’t appear to me they were well connected to each other in nailing down critically important and exact actions amongst themselves on that fateful day. JMO

 

[zencompass]

If this vehicle turns out to lead L.E. to the perpetrator, I will be among the first people jumping up and down in victory for justice for Abby and Libby.

 

[Falling Down]

The location where K dropped the girls off was not the parking lot near the abandoned CPS building. I don’t have a map at hand but it was near the Gerard Nature Reserve off County Road W300N and was also closer to the High Bridge. Later reports indicate that access has since been closed.

Several of GreyHuze’s videos also illustrate the drop off location iirc.

I included an image below of the area in question, courtesy Google Earth.

M=Main Trail
G=Gerard Trail
D=Drop off point
P=Tiny parking area
B=General area of the bench on the main trail
CPS=Direction of the CPS building from where the girls were dropped off.

There's also a lookout area where the two trails meet, you can see it in the image. It also has a bench.

Hope this helps.

 

[MistyWaters]

^^^^THIS

I have not viewed Reddit posts recently, I'm glad someone brought up the highway.

Having been there I agree the highway was a huge factor in the case.

I have a sneaking suspicion BG took the "new" highway into consideration in his planning of these crimes, in fact it could be that
once it was built he figured it would play well into pulling off his fantasy. The way the roads were before the highway would have left only two spots someone could have parked. The CPS building area, and the tiny parking area on the M property, which is the general area where the girls were dropped off. When the murders happened,

You can't even see Delphi from the highway, I had no clue where Delphi really was, or how to get there even, until I got to it where C.R. 200 crosses U.S. 421 after having driven C.R. 300 and C.R. 425.

Delphi has no bearing on this case whatsoever, it just happens to be the nearest population center, in fact the murders happened in Deer Creek Twp.

After the highway was built, there were 3 places to park: West end of the Freedom Bridge, the parking area there built when the highway went through. The CPS building. The tiny parking area off of C.R. 300.

I'm sure people parked along 300 back then, before the murders, but with the traffic on the trails and what have you I doubt that happened very often.

JMO

I can’t confirm this but early on in this case there were several WS members who claimed to be local to Delphi. What first perked my interest in CR 625W that turns into a private driveway was one of them mentioned it wasn’t unusual for people, including fisherman, to park on the side that gravel road as it was close to the river. If so, that’s a 4th area where the killer could’ve parked and it’s somewhat visible by google map as well.

According to this map, that’d be the lowest red dot, an area cordoned off by LE.


Mother of Delphi railroad bridge murder victim opens up about investigation | Daily Mail Online

 

[Falling Down]

I can’t confirm this but early on in this case there were several WS members who claimed to be local to Delphi. What first perked my interest in CR 625W that turns into a private driveway was one of them mentioned it wasn’t unusual for people, including fisherman, to park on the side that gravel road as it was close to the river. If so, that’s a 4th area where the killer could’ve parked and it’s somewhat visible by google map as well.

According to this map, that’d be the lowest red dot, an area cordoned off by LE.

View attachment 250432
Mother of Delphi railroad bridge murder victim opens up about investigation | Daily Mail Online

Good point, I rarely consider that driveway as a destination for anybody as it's private property.

Makes me wonder how often people fished on the south side of the creek.

Thanks.

 

[JDough]

I included an image below of the area in question, courtesy Google Earth.

M=Main Trail
G=Gerard Trail
D=Drop off point
P=Tiny parking area
B=General area of the bench on the main trail
CPS=Direction of the CPS building from where the girls were dropped off.

There's also a lookout area where the two trails meet, you can see it in the image. It also has a bench.

Hope this helps.

I can’t confirm this but early on in this case there were several WS members who claimed to be local to Delphi. What first perked my interest in CR 625W that turns into a private driveway was one of them mentioned it wasn’t unusual for people, including fisherman, to park on the side that gravel road as it was close to the river. If so, that’s a 4th area where the killer could’ve parked and it’s somewhat visible by google map as well.

According to this map, that’d be the lowest red dot, an area cordoned off by LE.

View attachment 250432
Mother of Delphi railroad bridge murder victim opens up about investigation | Daily Mail Online

Both maps are extremely helpful; thank you!

Good point, I rarely consider that driveway as a destination for anybody as it's private property.

Makes me wonder how often people fished on the south side of the creek.

Thanks.

@Falling Down - can you refresh my memory? I cannqot recall if you crossed the bridge?

I'm just curious if the gravel road can be viewed from the bridge, or from across Deer Creek? Is it a plausible theory BG may have parked there to conceal his identity, and or get away quickly?

 

[margarita25]

“Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby stressed that acting on incomplete evidence might weaken the prosecution’s case, potentially spoiling the one chance to imprison the killer.

“If a prosecutor doesn’t get it right the first time, that’s our only chance,” the sheriff said. “We want justice for Abby and Libby. But we don’t want to do it at the expense of potentially losing the criminal case in our courtroom.””

A new path

 

[Jax49]

From "A New Path":

A video captured on Libby’s phone shows him walking toward the girls, and on a later recording he says, “Guys, down the hill.”

bbm

Is this accurate? I've never seen anything to prove the video and audio didn't occur at the same time (or very close in time).

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

Some posts have been removed as off topic. Hopefully the following clarifies.

For those enquiring about the use of initials, reference is made in TOS under Name Calling and Derogatory Name Variations by simply stating "Initials may be used, and are encouraged".

There are rules and then there are policies. WS policy is to NOT use full names so that the names of innocent people are not forever etched in stone on a crime sleuthing website when they may have had nothing to do with the actual crime. It could also have potential legal ramifications that nobody needs. The policy has been that we can use full names for a victim and a POI/suspect who has been officially named by LE but for most others we use initials. It is a matter of discretion and WSers have been adhering to that policy for about 20 years now and it has served us well, so it is very possible for members to get used to it. If we can get to know members by their anonymous user IDs such as 1973Aplus8, surely we can get used to initials used throughout a specific case.

Example: One thread some of us are familiar with, a person not only self-identified, but also stated they knew they were a POI although LE had not named them as such. That highly qualified person subsequently reported they were having difficulty getting employment because their name was showing up to potential employers in google searches connected to discussion of a horrific murder.

This is Thread #123 for Abby and Libby and we've have done alright so far. If someone wants to complete the list of initials and abbreviations, please submit it to us via private message and we will include it in future Opening Posts. Otherwise, please stay on topic in this thread.

If you have questions, please do not discuss them on the thread so we don't derail the thread with off topic conversation. You may private message a Mod or Admin for clarification.

Thanks.

 

[Andreee]

From "A New Path":

A video captured on Libby’s phone shows him walking toward the girls, and on a later recording he says, “Guys, down the hill.”

bbm

Is this accurate? I've never seen anything to prove the video and audio didn't occur at the same time (or very close in time).

Wow, I just don't think that is accurate! I've certainly never heard about a later recording! It doesn't really make sense either IMO.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

“Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby stressed that acting on incomplete evidence might weaken the prosecution’s case, potentially spoiling the one chance to imprison the killer.

“If a prosecutor doesn’t get it right the first time, that’s our only chance,” the sheriff said. “We want justice for Abby and Libby. But we don’t want to do it at the expense of potentially losing the criminal case in our courtroom.””

A new path

A new path
Unavailable/EU restrictions .....

 

[JDough]

ADMIN NOTE:

Some posts have been removed as off topic. Hopefully the following clarifies.

For those enquiring about the use of initials, reference is made in TOS under Name Calling and Derogatory Name Variations by simply stating "Initials may be used, and are encouraged".

There are rules and then there are policies. WS policy is to NOT use full names so that the names of innocent people are not forever etched in stone on a crime sleuthing website when they may have had nothing to do with the actual crime. It could also have potential legal ramifications that nobody needs. The policy has been that we can use full names for a victim and a POI/suspect who has been officially named by LE but for most others we use initials. It is a matter of discretion and WSers have been adhering to that policy for about 20 years now and it has served us well, so it is very possible for members to get used to it. If we can get to know members by their anonymous user IDs such as 1973Aplus8, surely we can get used to initials used throughout a specific case.

Example: One thread some of us are familiar with, a person not only self-identified, but also stated they knew they were a POI although LE had not named them as such. That highly qualified person subsequently reported they were having difficulty getting employment because their name was showing up to potential employers in google searches connected to discussion of a horrific murder.

This is Thread #123 for Abby and Libby and we've have done alright so far. If someone wants to complete the list of initials and abbreviations, please submit it to us via private message and we will include it in future Opening Posts. Otherwise, please stay on topic in this thread.

If you have questions, please do not discuss them on the thread so we don't derail the thread with off topic conversation. You may private message a Mod or Admin for clarification.

Thanks.

Thank you for the clarification; much appreciated!

 

[sunshineray]

Anybody on Twitter that can ask KG about her comment? I believe we're allowed to link her Twitter here, correct?

 

[sunshineray]

From "A New Path":

A video captured on Libby’s phone shows him walking toward the girls, and on a later recording he says, “Guys, down the hill.”

bbm

Is this accurate? I've never seen anything to prove the video and audio didn't occur at the same time (or very close in time).

BP, MP and AW have all said they were allowed to listen to audio where the girls were girl talking and also of Abby saying something about moving on away from the end of the bridge with Libby commenting they couldn't because the trail ended. Could be the audio is in two parts/sessions. It's possible after taking her BG on bridge video Libby turned her phone camera off while putting her phone out of site in her pocket? Maybe as he got closer and really spooked her she turned it back on? I dont know how easy or hard that is with an iPhone?

 

[sloane7777]

First I thought, it's impossible, that 2 men were working together in a heinous crime.
Later on I thought, maybe 2 men, very close related/little age difference/looking quite similar - that would be possible for a certain reason.
Now I'm thinking, it might be, 2 male friends participated in the crime for whatever reasons. On the other hand: if one of both was known in the Delphi area better than his accomplice (=sketch #2), how did he also manage, that nobody recognized him?
Question to myself: Has the second perp to look like sketch #1 (OBG) or not?

I still think it was a father and Son.

 

[Seratonin]

I still think it was a father and Son.

Me too