Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #123

[JDough]

When Elizabeth Smart was kidnapped her younger sister was in the bedroom. She saw the kidnapper but it was months before she remembered he was a homeless person who had done work for them.

I think sometimes a person can be traumatized and just not remember everything right away. Maybe that is what happened to Kelsi.

Thank you so much for you're thoughts on this. It is absolutely true that the mind can forget things when faced with a tragedy of this magnitude. I remember wondering if my thoughts and memories were real or imagined when my daughter was abducted and found murdered. I suspect this has happened with the entire family of both girls. It's just too horrifying to be real. While we may be thinking about/identifying their inconsistencies, for them it may be a new (or improved) memory. No deceit involved.

It's terrifying to have a chunk of your memory missing due to trauma. It does terrible things to one's mental and physical health. When memories first begin to reappear, one may (again) question if they are real or imagined. Are we (subconsciously) so desperate for answers that we made ourselves think the thought(s)? Are we imagining there was a black SUV with window decals? As time goes on, we begin to start trusting our memories. We embrace what we know is real. We feel comfortable in sharing those memories with others- sometimes without even realizing it. We continue to heal, and regain what was lost.

It is my belief that this is what is happening with KG. (BP addresses KG's state of mind for the first year following the loss of her Sister in her YouTube interview with Tricia). I have no doubt she will continue to grow, and use her memories to help others. Maybe even her own Sister, by remembering something that was previously forgotten about that day.

 

[somequestions]

When Elizabeth Smart was kidnapped her younger sister was in the bedroom. She saw the kidnapper but it was months before she remembered he was a homeless person who had done work for them.

I think sometimes a person can be traumatized and just not remember everything right away. Maybe that is what happened to Kelsi.

What was amazing about that detail is that I wonder if investigators would have ever found Elizabeth Smart had it not been for her sister? In my opinion, I was surprised it took as long as it did to find her. That detail was so surprising because I thought it would have already been eliminated by law enforcement. But maybe police did their job and the sister only remembered later on. That is sometimes human nature when it comes to our memory.

The reason I was surprised it took so long to find Elizabeth Smart is you have a suspect who goes into a house and goes into the room of the victim. I think anyone has to at least suspect that this person may have known the inside of the house. So I always wanted to know if at any point during that investigation if police had everyone in the family write down a list of all the different people in the previous few months who had been inside their house(and was not accounted for yet as ruled out)? In this case, hopefully it is not some small detail like the person's picture is in the Delphi High School yearbook or something that ends up solving it. Just like Elizabeth Smart, I will be wondering how figuring that out could take this long.

The sad part about that the Elizabeth Smart investigation is that during it there was a man who I think killed himself because people thought he was the one who was behind Elizabeth Smart's kidnapping. It goes to show you why it is important not to use names and accuse people without absolute proof. It made me think about that security guard at the 1996 Olympic Games who was falsely accused of planting a bomb. Guilt or innocence is not the question. It is that it ruins how people look at them for a long time.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

LE haven't shared any description of a vehicle.

I find it frustrating, considering other cases had vehicle descriptions shared with the public within weeks or months.

My hunch is C.R. 300 is so seldomly traveled during hours that most people are at work, few people would have remembered a vehicle at the CPS building that day.

Could the killer have moved a vehicle? Maybe. My hunch for some time was maybe BG parked at the CPS building, then moved the vehicle to the cemetery. Now I'm of the opinion that doesn't make sense, he would have needed to park a vehicle where, chances are, nobody or few other people would park, and people driving by wouldn't take notice of a non-descript vehicle.He had enough on his plate, he needed to simplify things as much as possible, despite the plan/fantasy being somewhat elaborate.

I keep going back to how often anyone was on the trails before the murders, plus you have to factor in it was a regular work day for most people.

Just thinking out loud...

JMO

What, if BG has had an accomplice, who stood to him because of their close bond, but hadn't to participate in the murders, only in driving the car from A to B to C, waiting for BG to return from his mission?
Would it be thinkable?
I think of M*ssy B., TX, in 2016, where a single (disguised) murderer was seen on Church surveillance, but 2 cars (mysteriously parking/driving) were seen on different surveilance, as if a get-away-driver played a certain role. (WS thread, closed, case unsolved).

 

[Cryptic]

What, if BG has had an accomplice, who stood to him because of their close bond, but hadn't to participate in the murders, only in driving the car from A to B to C, waiting for BG to return from his mission?
Would it be thinkable?

I think that this scenario is not only plausible, but a police press release appears to suggest that the two released sketches could be of two different individuals and that both of the individuals depicted are persons of interest.

This raises the possibility of two individuals being involved. I think the possible involvement of two individuals is more likely to support a targeted scenario.

With either a random or targeted scenario, both perpetrators would have needed to develop a high degree of trust in each other. The age difference between the two possible perpetrators could be twenty years or more. This age difference alone would appear to limit trust.

Age based limitations on the development of trust, however, could be over come by family ties. Likewise, statistically, the older individual is more likely to be the dominate participant.

In addition, in the case of a targeted scenario, the younger perpetrator would be statistically more likely to handle the communication between the perpetrators and the victims.

 

[mimimarge]

I've come to the conclusion that the senario that works best in my mind is LE had two options early on, to believe two "witnesses" or a much larger group of "witnesses" description of who they saw. That LE discounted the earliest description in favor of the larger pool of people contributing to a description turned out to be a mistake.

LE cannot now say the first sketch released is bogus because they would then have to explain why to the public. They don't want to release that information and will only remark that the killer never thought they'd change "strategy", they had right information early on and surprising the killer with new sketch was " very very important"(per ISP Carter).

LE was mislead into believing something they now know to be false. Eyewitness? Alibi? Circumstances of "evidence"? All of the above? This is AJMO.

Just a possibility... The BG was in disguise at the trails and was seen without the disguise earlier/later.

 

[Ozoner]

I think that this scenario is not only plausible, but a police press release appears to suggest that the two released sketches could be of two different individuals and that both of the individuals depicted are persons of interest.

This raises the possibility of two individuals being involved. I think the possible involvement of two individuals is more likely to support a targeted scenario.

With either a random or targeted scenario, both perpetrators would have needed to develop a high degree of trust in each other. The age difference between the two possible perpetrators could be twenty years or more. This age difference alone would appear to limit trust.

Age based limitations on the development of trust, however, could be over come by family ties. Likewise, statistically, the older individual is more likely to be the dominate participant.

In addition, in the case of a targeted scenario, the younger perpetrator would be statistically more likely to handle the communication between the perpetrators and the victims.

Just a possibility... The BG was in disguise at the trails and was seen without the disguise earlier/later.

We don't know whom the first sketch depicts. It may not even be someone seen on the trails that day. I think there's a very good chance that it actually depicts the man who was getting into confrontations with trail-goers on a previous day.
-
The younger sketch may be of the man who was seen doing something that "needed to be reported." What was he doing? Changing clothes? Masturbating? The language used was somewhat cryptic.

 

[Falling Down]

Just a possibility... The BG was in disguise at the trails and was seen without the disguise earlier/later.

Exactly my thoughts for most of the last 3+ years, as to any rational explanation about different or "conflicting" descriptions.

He's wearing a disguise of sorts on the bridge, per the clothing. Could be BG disguised himself in other ways, too, and at different times that day.

JMO

 

[St. Anthony2017]

Exactly my thoughts for most of the last 3+ years, as to any rational explanation about different or "conflicting" descriptions.

He's wearing a disguise of sorts on the bridge, per the clothing. Could be BG disguised himself in other ways, too, and at different times that day.

JMO

I think it’s possible. In some of the photos it looks like a bad wig to me.

 

[Falling Down]

I think it’s possible. In some of the photos it looks like a bad wig to me.

The 2017 sketch looks like a wig to me.

JMO

 

[Blue Amethyst]

Thank you so much for you're thoughts on this. It is absolutely true that the mind can forget things when faced with a tragedy of this magnitude. I remember wondering if my thoughts and memories were real or imagined when my daughter was abducted and found murdered. I suspect this has happened with the entire family of both girls. It's just too horrifying to be real. While we may be thinking about/identifying their inconsistencies, for them it may be a new (or improved) memory. No deceit involved.

It's terrifying to have a chunk of your memory missing due to trauma. It does terrible things to one's mental and physical health. When memories first begin to reappear, one may (again) question if they are real or imagined. Are we (subconsciously) so desperate for answers that we made ourselves think the thought(s)? Are we imagining there was a black SUV with window decals? As time goes on, we begin to start trusting our memories. We embrace what we know is real. We feel comfortable in sharing those memories with others- sometimes without even realizing it. We continue to heal, and regain what was lost.

It is my belief that this is what is happening with KG. (BP addresses KG's state of mind for the first year following the loss of her Sister in her YouTube interview with Tricia). I have no doubt she will continue to grow, and use her memories to help others. Maybe even her own Sister, by remembering something that was previously forgotten about that day.

So sorry for what you have been through. If I may ask, was there a conviction in your case and was it someone that you knew. Is it on Websleuths? Please don’t answer if you don’t want to. Hugs to you.

 

[JDough]

Just a possibility... The BG was in disguise at the trails and was seen without the disguise earlier/later.

Like you, I have often thought that BG was wearing a disguise. If so, this would explain why 1) LE "knows that voice- they've heard it before", and 2) If BG is local (as LE believes), it may be the reason no one recognizes him.

The younger sketch may be of the man who was seen doing something that "needed to be reported." What was he doing? Changing clothes? Masturbating? The language used was somewhat cryptic.

Your post reminds me of DC's comment on the DTH podcast when standing at the junction of the two trails (right in front of the Mary Gerad sign) "If they had only gone right instead of left". Was BG laying in wait for a victim to come down the trail to the left?

What did he mean by this? Was BG hiding in the tree line, and as you said exposing himself or masturbating? Did the witness see him earlier in the day and report? If I am not mistaken, this witness (who reported something they witnessed) helped to create the second sketch released. So terrifying to think about our young children being exposed to lewd conduct while taking a walk in the park.

 

[Cryptic]

We don't know whom the first sketch depicts. It may not even be someone seen on the trails that day. I think there's a very good chance that it actually depicts the man who was getting into confrontations with trail-goers on a previous day.
-
The younger sketch may be of the man who was seen doing something that "needed to be reported." What was he doing? Changing clothes? Masturbating? The language used was somewhat cryptic.

I agree with the ambiguous nature of the press releases regarding the individuals. Over the years, the press releases have appeared to vary from:

- Photo and original sketch of BG is accurate age wise and appear to depict a 40-55 year old white male

- The new sketch of BG showing a far younger white male perpetrator is accurate. But... BG may also be a blend of both sketches and ages.

- Young BG and old BG are possibly separate individuals, both are persons of interest in the murders.

- The perpetrator and young BG are separate individuals. Though young BG was doing something hmm.... "irregular" he is not thought of as the perpetrator.

 

[rosesfromangels]

I agree with the ambiguous nature of the press releases regarding the individuals. Over the years, the press releases have appeared to vary from:

- Photo and original sketch of BG is accurate age wise and appear to depict a 40-55 year old white male

- The new sketch of BG showing a far younger white male perpetrator is accurate. But... BG may also be a blend of both sketches and ages.

- Young BG and old BG are possibly separate individuals, both are persons of interest in the murders.

- The perpetrator and young BG are separate individuals. Though young BG was doing something hmm.... "irregular" he is not thought of as the perpetrator.

This is news to me! When was “Young BG ruled out as the Perp? I am behind on the thread. Wow, that’s big news!

 

[Andreee]

This is news to me! When was “Young BG ruled out as the Perp? I am behind on the thread. Wow, that’s big news!

Um, even though I sometimes forget which is which, I soon remember that the YOUNG sketch is the one who is fashioned after the perpetrator! Why are people saying otherwise?

 

[Cryptic]

This is news to me! When was “Young BG ruled out as the Perp? I am behind on the thread. Wow, that’s big news!

They have not ruled out a young BG.

Rather, some press releases have been vague and give the impression that a younger individual (who may, or may not be the young BG depiction?) was seen doing something that "should be reported" (possibly sexual of the uhmm "self love" variety?) at the bridge that day.

The release then evidently implies that though the individual is not actively thought to (or may?) be the perpetrator, the police are interested in talking to him.

In the end, some of the press releases can be interpreted a variety different ways regarding the possibility of two perpetrators verse one BG (older or younger, or blended).

Or, a possible seperate other younger person was doing something "irregular" or "creepy" but is seemingly not connected to the crime- but still needs to be spoken to.

 

[MistyWaters]

Um, even though I sometimes forget which is which, I soon remember that the YOUNG sketch is the one who is fashioned after the perpetrator! Why are people saying otherwise?

The question would be why is LE not unified in their messages to the general public. Is it because of the evolving investigation or caused by a Multi-Agency Task Force who does not see eye to eye. At the onset of this investigation LE stressed “a person of interest” is someone they’re interested in talking with but who isn’t necessarily a suspect. Might this indicate LE are now open to the possibility neither sketch is an accurate depiction of who the killer might be?.....seems so, according to Leazenby.

April 29/20 - Carrol County Comet/Sheriff Leazenby - BBM
“The Sheriff indicated the two sketches, which varied greatly from each other, were supplied by two different people near the scene on Monday, Feb. 13. Both images are of persons of interest in the investigation.”
Lots of tips, no arrest in 2017 double homicide | Carroll County Comet

Also from that link -
“If people have not heard information from an investigator or released by police, they can assume the information is not true,” Leazenby concluded...”

 

[sunshineray]

Just a possibility... The BG was in disguise at the trails and was seen without the disguise earlier/later.

Honestly I don't see anything in common between those two sketches. To me they look night and day. LE changed the weight range and the age range from OBG to NBG. One ISP officer, I cannot recall his name, commented something to the effect that those sketches represent two different people.

I guess your senario is possible but boy what a mess that would prove to be to prosecute.

 

[Andreee]

The question would be why is LE not unified in their messages to the general public. Is it because of the evolving investigation or caused by a Multi-Agency Task Force who does not see eye to eye. At the onset of this investigation LE stressed “a person of interest” is someone they’re interested in talking with but who isn’t necessarily a suspect. Might this indicate LE are now open to the possibility neither sketch is an accurate depiction of who the killer is the killer.....seems so, according to Leazenby.

April 29/20 - Carrol County Comet/Sheriff Leazenby - BBM
“The Sheriff indicated the two sketches, which varied greatly from each other, were supplied by two different people near the scene on Monday, Feb. 13. Both images are of persons of interest in the investigation.”
Lots of tips, no arrest in 2017 double homicide | Carroll County Comet

Also from that link -
“If people have not heard information from an investigator or released by police, they can assume the information is not true,” Leazenby concluded...”

Omg, confusion still reigns then! Okay then, so both images are of people that LE wants to talk to, is all I'm going by then! If there is no consensus among different LE entities. In fact, during one of their early press conferences (the one with mayor and others in background) can't recall date, anyways I noticed when the LE spokesman was talking, they were looking at each other and making faces at one another in the background which led to people commenting on that on the U/T channel underneath. Like, are they not all together on this?! At any rate, doesn't matter if someone like me is confused because I live in another country anyways lol.

 

[Charlot123]

I look at the video, not the sketches. He has quite a background but is not in CODIS. He is a narcissist and had the opportunity. He does have a gravelly voice and he is in the age bracket of the original sketch that first came out in 2017.

What if he has no background? And lived in Indiana, but not in Delphi? And moved after the killings for a very “normal”, routine, reason? That no one would think twice about?

Now, about DNA - I remember that the peak of DNA interests was probably in 2012-2017. And as to Gedmatch, it was the base for two groups, people working on their family trees, for whatever reasons, and genealogists, working at the trees for the clients (for the same reasons).

All our commercial companies had vast bases for people of European ancestry, so with not high-quality DNA and non-European, or mixed, ancestry, there honestly, truly, might be nothing in Gedmatch, and nothing in CODIS. As to testing itself, the guy’s parents might not be into it specifically because they are well off (no need for poor relatives to emerge on their doorstep), or just know their family trees. Or maybe, at the time of the peak for DNA collections, they lived in states like MD or NY that had somewhat more complicated laws, and later, when the laws became lax, they did not think of it.

Lastly, I am thinking, what if it is an immigrants’ kid? I am still remembering the huge list of the countries that 23@me or Ancestry did not serve.

If we walk away from the concept of LE “knowing” who it is, and imagine the easiest story.

- the guy used to live 2 hours away from Delphi
- his parents were born in another country, or he is an ethic mix, but has nothing to do with Pennsylvanian Germans.
- He left some DNA, but of a poor quality, patched, fragmented and matches something that doesn’t make sense unless you know his background
- parents never considered DNA testing at the peak of interest in it
- he has moved afterwards (graduated, or relocated for a totally normal reason)
- he looks average
- he has good natural ability to languages/accents and when living at Midwest, spoke like a Midwesterner
- he maybe had bronchitis/allergies during that time and spoke in a more raspy voice than usual
- he had a good reason to be angry/frustrated at that time, but it was something within the family, unrelated to a break
- he had no GF at that time, and later reconnected with someone when he moved away; the new person has not heard about Delphi

How typical would it be? I mean, LE hints at knowing, but what if they don’t? That they are not Sherlock Holmes we already know.

Am I the only one who at this point thinks that maybe LE has no clue about BG because BG is rather average, and doesn’t live in Delphi?

 

[rosesfromangels]

Well this is all clear as mud : )