Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #123

[Deleted member 102539]

That BG is just an average looking guy may be why we have some confusion on the sketches. If he lives in Indianapolis, Chicago or Louisville KY and I stood in line next to him at a coffee shop I probably wouldn't give him a second thought.

Depends. MOO

 

[JnRyan]

Does anyone think the BG could have been up in a deer stand with a clear view of the trail and the bridge so he knew when the right time was to strike? He could have been pretending to be bird watching or just taking scenic pictures but was really watching for a vulnerable victim/s.

That was one of the possibilities posed by Anthony Greeno in one of his reenactment YouTube videos as they supposedly found a tree stand nearby.

 

[layer]

I get depressed and have to step away from this thread periodically, so I was surprised to see Abby's mom saying that she viewed more of the video, and that she could hear Libby saying "Well the path ends here, so we can't go any farther."

I feel so bad for these families.

 

[minazoe]

omigosh that has to be so horrible, I can't even imagine the courage you would need just to hear it. breaks my heart , it really does. mOO

 

[sunshineray]

Maybe, but Leazenby doesn’t say anybody failed a poly, just they were administered on “some” which would include only those who volunteered. It’s equally possible polygraphs are asked of people providing incriminating tips and leads to aid in measuring the level of their integrity. Once a case becomes high profile, I’d imagine the small segment of society who thrive by forwarding malicious, false and misleading tips increases as well, especially when a large reward is involved.

Just my opinion, sketch #2 didn’t result in that “one good tip” much like sketch #1, so LE are left with no option but to begin backing away. Even if any of the witnesses indeed sighted the killer, the accuracy of sketches is well known to be questionable. As time passes, so does the value of a sketch of how someone might’ve appeared three or more years ago.

If the guilty party had been an exact match to either sketch and still lived in or near Delphi, this case would not require a high profile manhunt to seek out 50,000 tips involving a community of 3000 people. LE would’ve had the opportunity to question every single person who the suspect was known to be connected with including friends, wives, girlfriends, relatives, neighbours and associates. IMO

No the Sheriff doesn't state anyone failed nor did he say anyone passed polygraphs but he also must have volunteered that investigators want to protect the integrity of the information collected for prosecution. He could have just left it at not releasing information...period. To get specific like that leads me to believe LE questioned someone (s) that weren't being truthful. AJMO

 

[MistyWaters]

No the Sheriff doesn't state anyone failed nor did he say anyone passed polygraphs but he also must have volunteered that investigators want to protect the integrity of the information collected for prosecution. He could have just left it at not releasing information...period. To get specific like that leads me to believe LE questioned someone (s) that weren't being truthful. AJMO

Interestingly, a polygraph machine was on site by March 11, 2017 although I think the task force later moved into a different building.

“The old power company building in Delphi is investigators' command center. Volunteers man the front desk 24/7 while investigators sort through thousands of tips and conduct interviews in empty rooms, except for a table and some chairs.

Some of the questioning involves a lie detector machine.

"We actually have a polygraph chair set up in there," Perrine told WTHR....”
'Please, we need your help': Libby German's grandfather speaks

 

[Charlot123]

I've heard from members in the military that SPECOPS operators, such as those in the Army's Operational Det D (Delta) or the Navy's Special Warfare Development Group (SEAL Team Six) may be called upon to do surveillance in a foreign country. For this they find it advantageous to use individuals who don't stand out in a crowd. For example, a blonde haired man who is 6'6" may not be the ideal person walking around in Lebanon. Many of the SEAL Team Six I saw were not even six foot tall and with a beard and no military haircut, I would not pick them out in a crowd. That BG is just an average looking guy may be why we have some confusion on the sketches. If he lives in Indianapolis, Chicago or Louisville KY and I stood in line next to him at a coffee shop I probably wouldn't give him a second thought.

I haven’t spoken to Delta or a SEAL, but from my limited experience, it is easy to find a non-standing out person for any country, for everything, but one thing. The gaze. You don’t pay attention to people with soft gaze, any intensity draws attention, more so than the stature. Training for surveillance means one has to take in a lot of information, so how can you hide attentive, intense even, gaze? This is hard.

Only my opinion, from the of photos I have seen as I love history - people with widely set, smiling, soft eyes, who easily crack average-level jokes, sympathetic, charming, easy drinkers, generous, are usually specialists of a higher level.

 

[Charlot123]

The continued refusal by LE to reveal any further evidence is why I believe crime scene forensic evidence is weak, unfortunately. But they’re certainly not going to admit it.

If LE had mountains of evidence placing any one suspect at the crime scene including such things as DNA if a SA occurred, from a weapon left behind, victim fingernail scrapings or blood droplets on the ground possibly a known vehicle, shoeprints, etc and has so far been unsuccessful in identifying the culprit linked to it, then protecting the integrity of the investigation becomes less important because the evidence required to satisfy the threshold of criminal proceedings is already present.

But if they don’t have that, a suspect who has shared very specific knowledge not ever released to the public may become the strongest incriminating evidence there can ever be. This is what I think LE is hoping to gain in seeking that one good tip.

I sometimes think that if they release one of the signatures, it will be enough for “that” tip. But which one? That is the question.

 

[Tiger Stripes]

I haven’t spoken to Delta or a SEAL, but from my limited experience, it is easy to find a non-standing out person for any country, for everything, but one thing. The gaze. You don’t pay attention to people with soft gaze, any intensity draws attention, more so than the stature. Training for surveillance means one has to take in a lot of information, so how can you hide attentive, intense even, gaze? This is hard.

Only my opinion, from the of photos I have seen as I love history - people with widely set, smiling, soft eyes, who easily crack average-level jokes, sympathetic, charming, easy drinkers, generous, are usually specialists of a higher level.

Interesting analysis, @Charlot123!

 

[somequestions]

I get depressed and have to step away from this thread periodically, so I was surprised to see Abby's mom saying that she viewed more of the video, and that she could hear Libby saying "Well the path ends here, so we can't go any farther."

I feel so bad for these families.

This case always had that feeling at the beginning that it would probably be solved quickly. The sketches only reinforced that feeling again each time a new one was put out. But yet after over 3 years the case remains unsolved. The saying associated with this case (Today is the Day) almost seemed to foreshadow the time associated with this case.

Liberty German did the best she could to get the audio/video that she did. She had to put the phone away or else this person may have seen her recording and then try to get rid of the phone. I think she did the right thing even if the video is not that clear. Even though she did not give them a clear path to the killer, I think she pointed investigators in the right direction.

I think this case is going to end up as a case study for why you cannot take anything for granted in an investigation. Thousands of tips, audio, video, a local location, and a small town watching and looking for the bridge man. Yet the case remains unsolved.

I know with Abigail Williams birthday coming up on June 23rd, if I were a detective in this case I would be a little disappointed in the direction of the investigation up until now. Someday this case will hopefully be solved. This case is a little unique in that every day that passes makes it seem like it is going to take that much longer. But that is probably a reflection of how much it seemed like the case would be solved immediately at the beginning.

 

[Charlot123]

This is a What if..JMO
I think the OBG is the person who was hanging around the trails. He was confrontational and was even described wearing the blue jacket and blue jeans. I think he was investigated and possibly cleared.

So what if one of the young guys hanging around there is really YBG. Apparently it wouldn’t take much to get the same or similar blue jeans and jacket. Then if he was seen he would resemble the OBG if he kept his face hidden. YBG could commit the crime and let the blame fall on OBG.

Except someone did see his face and hence the sketch.

You know, it always comes to my mind that that blue jacket, of course, is long gone, no one, probably, identifies it with the person, but maybe, just maybe, BG favors color blue in general? Suits his eyes or complexion, or whatever he has. Or maybe he used to like blue before the murders, but not now, and this, too, is a change?

 

[JudgeJudi]

This is the first time I’ve posted for months due to ongoing family health problems. There’s no way I’ll be able to catch up so please excuse any doubling up.

Published today

Sheriff Leazenby:

The video is believed to be the perpetrator, or one of the perpetrators, of the crimes.

There is DNA from the crime scene but he refused to divulge from where it originated. There is “suggestive” evidence of fingerprints found at the crime scene. “This is not simple. This is not television. DNA can come from all sorts of places and fingerprints can be smudged and hard to identify.”

The investigation is not stalled. It has not been determined if there was one or more perpetrators. “We go back and forth on that”.

“Mistakes may have been made early on in the rush to get a resolution to this”. It could be that just the right question was not asked or a nerve was not touched by a question to help us figure out who did this.”

Evidence is being revisited to determine if there are more leads than were first thought.

The two sketches, which varied greatly from each other, were supplied by two different people near the scene on Feb. 13. Both images are of persons of interest in the investigation.

Further information and facts have not been released because investigators believe that by doing that, the case against the accused would become weaker.

Polygraphs have been administered on some who have been interviewed but no further details will be released.

 

[Cryptic]

I haven’t spoken to Delta or a SEAL, but from my limited experience, it is easy to find a non-standing out person for any country, for everything, but one thing. The gaze. You don’t pay attention to people with soft gaze, any intensity draws attention, more so than the stature. Training for surveillance means one has to take in a lot of information, so how can you hide attentive, intense even, gaze? This is hard.

I imagine that for a target to notice the gaze, one needs to notice the observer.

Thus, observers probably make themselves as inconspicuous as possible. Homeless maybe a good cover as a good number normally have intense gazes. Other good covers maybe say, a valet parking lot attendant normally watching for clients, vandals and smash and grab thieves. Thus, watching gazes from these people are less likely to raise alarm bells.

I also think that really in depth surveillance requires teams of observers. Each observer's amount of contact with the target is reduced, therefore less chance of the target noticing "the gaze". Likewise, the target maybe observed by two people simultaneously, with less need to gaze.

In the end, my bet is that top level surveillance takes a lot of observer skill and team resources. This is probably especially so if the target is an ex con.

With convicts, or anybody else, uneducated does not always mean unintelligent. Likewise, while in prison, they have little to do all day besides observe people, events and things. As a result, some ex cons can get extremely good at noticing small details, deviations or connections between events in and out of prison.

 

[JDough]

Nancy Grace crime stories podcast has new interview with Becky and Kelsi

Podcast Link:

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Title: A video, voice recording, & DNA, but NO SUSPECT in the murders of two teen girls in Delphi Indiana.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I imagine that for a target to notice the gaze, one needs to notice the observer.

Thus, observers probably make themselves as inconspicuous as possible. Homeless maybe a good cover as a good number normally have intense gazes. Other good covers maybe say, a valet parking lot attendant normally watching for clients, vandals and smash and grab thieves. Thus, watching gazes from these people are less likely to raise alarm bells.

I also think that really in depth surveillance requires teams of observers. Each observer's amount of contact with the target is reduced, therefore less chance of the target noticing "the gaze". Likewise, the target maybe observed by two people simultaneously, with less need to gaze.

In the end, my bet is that top level surveillance takes a lot of observer skill and team resources. This is probably especially so if the target is an ex con.

With convicts, or anybody else, uneducated does not always mean unintelligent. Likewise, while in prison, they have little to do all day besides observe people, events and things. As a result, some ex cons can get extremely good at noticing small details, deviations or connections between events in and out of prison.

This is interesting but I somehow missed the context and how this ties in with this case. Could somebody help me out here.

 

[AmandaSkis]

This is the first time I’ve posted for months due to ongoing family health problems. There’s no way I’ll be able to catch up so please excuse any doubling up.

Published today

Sheriff Leazenby:

The video is believed to be the perpetrator, or one of the perpetrators, of the crimes.

There is DNA from the crime scene but he refused to divulge from where it originated. There is “suggestive” evidence of fingerprints found at the crime scene. “This is not simple. This is not television. DNA can come from all sorts of places and fingerprints can be smudged and hard to identify.”

The investigation is not stalled. It has not been determined if there was one or more perpetrators. “We go back and forth on that”.

“Mistakes may have been made early on in the rush to get a resolution to this”. It could be that just the right question was not asked or a nerve was not touched by a question to help us figure out who did this.”

Evidence is being revisited to determine if there are more leads than were first thought.

The two sketches, which varied greatly from each other, were supplied by two different people near the scene on Feb. 13. Both images are of persons of interest in the investigation.

Further information and facts have not been released because investigators believe that by doing that, the case against the accused would become weaker.

Polygraphs have been administered on some who have been interviewed but no further details will be released.

The sheriff gives us a lot of info in that article from April 2020, even if he states it somewhat vaguely.

I would so LOVE to hear from someone with investigative experience, someone who could help us understand:

—DNA: what are some ways to transfer DNA? Blood, semen, saliva, hair. What else?

—Fingerprints: “Suggestive” evidence of fingerprints? I can’t even guess what that might include.

—How many perps? The sheriff acknowledges it might be more than one.

—Shock at who the perp is: Someone local. Well-known. Makes me think a teacher or a coach.

Anyone else have thoughts on the sheriff’s comments?

 

[JDough]

The sheriff gives us a lot of info in that article from April 2020, even if he states it somewhat vaguely.

I would so LOVE to hear from someone with investigative experience, someone who could help us understand:

—DNA: what are some ways to transfer DNA? Blood, semen, saliva, hair. What else?

—Fingerprints: “Suggestive” evidence of fingerprints? I can’t even guess what that might include.

—How many perps? The sheriff acknowledges it might be more than one.

—Shock at who the perp is: Someone local. Well-known. Makes me think a teacher or a coach.

Anyone else have thoughts on the sheriff’s comments?

@Kell1 are you able to help us out with the questions above (and below)? I believe you may have touched on a couple them previously, but questions still remain. Your thoughts on LE public statements to this point is an especially intriguing question I think many of us have. We've discussed (in great detail), how confusing and sometimes contradictory these statements are. Without training, it has been very difficult for us to understand the puzzle of unraveling LE's statements, body language, and actions. It's like a riddle, IMO.

<modsnip - quoted post was removed>

TIA for your assistance, @Kell1. Your expertise is so greatly appreciated.

 

[AmandaSkis]

I like this article on touch DNA because it includes examples of how much DNA might be left on various objects in a specified amount of time:

Touch DNA. What is it? Where is it? How much can be found? And, how can it impact my case? | Ryan Forensic

 

[sunshineray]

Interestingly, a polygraph machine was on site by March 11, 2017 although I think the task force later moved into a different building.

“The old power company building in Delphi is investigators' command center. Volunteers man the front desk 24/7 while investigators sort through thousands of tips and conduct interviews in empty rooms, except for a table and some chairs.

Some of the questioning involves a lie detector machine.

"We actually have a polygraph chair set up in there," Perrine told WTHR....”
'Please, we need your help': Libby German's grandfather speaks

Good article, thanks for posting. Besides the polygraph info there was something else in it that surprised me. It surprises only because it's been stated so many times in the media that the opposite was the case. BBM

"Police have not released how Abby and Libby died, but say the teens' immediate family members know the answer. Even without such details, the community is still trying to cope with the loss, too."

If that's accurate it could mean certain facts about the scene and murders could be out there. JMO

 

[Tiger Stripes]

This is interesting but I somehow missed the context and how this ties in with this case. Could somebody help me out here.

I *think*, @StarryStarryNight, that @JnRyan has recently posted something along *these* lines (this, pertaining to the physical appearance of potential suspects in this case):

This, from @JnRyan's original post, and respectfully SBM:

---> That BG is just an average looking guy may be why we have some confusion on the sketches. If he lives in Indianapolis, Chicago or Louisville KY and I stood in line next to him at a coffee shop I probably wouldn't give him a second thought. <---

--
Thus, @StarryStarryNight, there has been a brief discussion regarding what people "look like" (i. e., potential suspects), as well as several comments re: what Delta Force or Seal Team members look like (i. e., that they *don't* look like/stand out as if they're members of Special Ops forces) when they're observing others -- especially others who are potential suspects (hope this didn't make it *more* confusing...).