Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #123

[Betty P]

I was thinking about that the other day and realized that “signatures” could be very awful things done to the girls. I think if there was an easy little quirk to release, they would have. There are things that LE said that kind of contradict each other. I’m not good at verbatim, but I found it odd how disturbed they were by the condition of the girls, but they could guarantee that the public wasn’t in any danger. Is there a suspect already in custody that has been for other crimes, but cannot be positively linked to the girls?

Over the last few years following cases here, I've noticed LE aren't always accurate in claims that "the public isn't in any danger". I suppose mistakes are made or miscalculations, but there have been a number of case where, after arrest of the perp(s) you realize they were still in the community or general area and could have easily harmed someone else.

Maybe LE sometimes are looking at the wrong person initially, or they're reluctant to worry people or wish to protect the reputation of their community, but I seldom believe LE anymore when they make that public statement.

 

[Ozoner]

Over the last few years following cases here, I've noticed LE aren't always accurate in claims that "the public isn't in any danger". I suppose mistakes are made or miscalculations, but there have been a number of case where, after arrest of the perp(s) you realize they were still in the community or general area and could have easily harmed someone else.

Maybe LE sometimes are looking at the wrong person initially, or they're reluctant to worry people or wish to protect the reputation of their community, but I seldom believe LE anymore when they make that public statement.

Yes, "The public isn't in any danger" is just something LE always says in order to forestall a public panic. It's meaningless. It's routine. What else are they going to say? They're not going to say, "Everyone's in grave danger; get ahold of a large-caliber semi-automatic pistol any way you can, and empty your clip into anyone you don't recognize who comes within twenty feet of you."
-
Anyone who's trying to read significance into that statement hasn't followed very many cases.

 

[Wells]

I remember many threads back someone, apologies but I do not remember who, stated that YBG looked like any frat boy anywhere. With the recent talk of how nondescript he appears it resonated with me. I have often wondered about the two sketches. I didnt follow the case as often when we only had the OBG sketch but I did follow it. I too see OBG matching up with the man in the video. But I wonder in part if that is simply because the OBG sketch was released first and that it was I was "told" to see. If the YBG sketch had been released first, I likely would feel that sketch more closely resembled the man in the video.

 

[Kell1]

@Kell1 are you able to help us out with the questions above (and below)? I believe you may have touched on a couple them previously, but questions still remain. Your thoughts on LE public statements to this point is an especially intriguing question I think many of us have. We've discussed (in great detail), how confusing and sometimes contradictory these statements are. Without training, it has been very difficult for us to understand the puzzle of unraveling LE's statements, body language, and actions. It's like a riddle, IMO.



Because this information has not been revealed in MSM (to my knowledge), it is difficult to discuss on the threads. However, IF this may be a delaying factor in the case, having a basic understanding of what touch DNA is, and how a profile is obtained would be very helpful. Are investigators able to rule suspects in or out with only touch DNA? How would having only touch DNA affect the prosecution of an individual(s)?

TIA for your assistance, @Kell1. Your expertise is so greatly appreciated.

Ways to transfer DNA are limitless, it can be direct or indirect transfer, the sources however are limited to any biological material that we possess.

As listed above, the most common are Blood, Semen, saliva, or vaginal secretions, hair, skin, in some cases, feces, Urine is a very poor source, because the dilute and sparse nucleated cells, touch DNA is a relatively new source, but its been debated because lets say if someone sneezes or coughs in an area, it can contaminate the scene . Touch DNA was found in the Jon Benet Ramsey case, and it was discounted because it can literally come from anyone . This was the basis for the "intruder" theory.

-"suggestive evidence" sounds like they have what they think is fingerprints, but they may have been marred someway that made them difficult to use

-Multiple victims, means more than one offender is possible, there may be physical evidence to support it but they aren't letting on .

-In abduction murders of kids, the offender usually lives or works nearby, they operate in an area they feel safe, they are well aware that what they are going to do will draw attention, and there's some anxiety before and during, in some cases, they know fully that they are going to kill the victim, therefore they choose someplace they are familiar with. In this case, we have 2!, that would indicate someone extremely comfortable with the area where the girls were found, remember the spatial relationship of 200 feet from the murder scene to the body recovery site, he most likely killed the girls where they were found, especially with multiple victims. He knew to get them out of sight, off that trail, he knew where it was secluded, he knew he could get out of there unseen or without drawing suspicion.

That's why they feel its a local, because it almost always is .

-

 

[rosesfromangels]

If you are correct, Rose- I'm thinking the Fourth of July would be a great day for an arrest. LIBERTY and justice for all.

You and I are on exactly the same page. Let us pray it is so.

amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I don't know about the movies, but I read the Jason Bourne books. Yes, it's a work of fiction, but the point is he was called 'The Chameleon'. He could change his appearance like someone changing his shirt. He was of 'average' height, 'average' weight, could look heavier or thinner depending on clothing, could change his hair color, eye color (with contacts), spoke several languages. He was trained. The Jason Bourne character also had cosmetic surgery to make his appearance 'more average' and less stand out.
Maybe the killer reads/watches movies, television, books, etc. Maybe he has taught himself how 'to blend in'.
I wonder if he's sweating?

Maybe, he is a "prevented actor" so-to-say and it's easy for him, to show "the average guy", which in truth he isn't. On the contrary, he hates to be only "the average guy" in everyone's eyes, I believe. MOO

 

[MistyWaters]

Changes should lead to questions from the people seeing someone making these changes and those seeing the person should then ask 'why'?

Yes for sure, somebody changing their appearance or acting differently were features people were asked to watch out for.

Feb 22, 2017
“Any other behavior that might be considered suspicious, such as somebody acting differently since Feb. 13, that should be a red flag.
"Did (an) individual travel unexpectedly?" Massa said. "Did they change their appearance? Did they shave their beard, cut their hair or change the color of their hair? Did they change the way they dress?"

The FBI is also looking for anybody who may have changed their regular behavior after Feb. 13. He said to try and remember anybody who:

• Has a different sleep pattern now
• Started abusing drugs or alcohol when they wouldn't have beforehand
• Has become anxious or irritable
• Has followed this case and what the media is releasing with a sense that is "not normal"
• Has been having ongoing conversations about where they were on Feb. 13

Police said you shouldn't feel bad about reporting some odd behavior by somebody. If they're innocent, it will only take a few minutes of their time, and they'll never know you were the one who reported them.”
FBI seeks behavioral changes in Delphi case

 

[MistyWaters]

Over the last few years following cases here, I've noticed LE aren't always accurate in claims that "the public isn't in any danger". I suppose mistakes are made or miscalculations, but there have been a number of case where, after arrest of the perp(s) you realize they were still in the community or general area and could have easily harmed someone else.

Maybe LE sometimes are looking at the wrong person initially, or they're reluctant to worry people or wish to protect the reputation of their community, but I seldom believe LE anymore when they make that public statement.

I agree. If LE were to announce the public was in danger, some immediate action is required in order to ensure the safety of the community such as lock your doors, stay in your house, hide in your basement, stay away from a certain area etc. Instead in this case LE told people to be aware of their surroundings, to walk in groups, etc, actions which promote safety.

This topic arises in virtually every murder case, how can police say a community is safe after a murder has occurred.

It’s the job of LE to ensure safety - danger is present when an active threat is known. Otherwise I’m certain people in any community are smart enough to realize any unsolved murder case involves a murderer who is currently walking free and don’t require LE to spell out the fact that anyone capable of murder can be considered dangerous.....one of the reasons he’d be arrested if LE were able to identify the suspect, as in all unsolved murder cases everywhere. JMO

 

[Charlot123]

No Midwesterner would ever say "at Midwest." We would say, "in the Midwest." (Please don't take offense at this question, but is English a second language for you?)

I don’t take offense for an opportunity to learn, thank you.

Third. I used to study French, too, at school, and much later, German, but neither is important here, so they have fallen into disuse, worse than Monon High Bridge.

 

[Charlot123]

I read what you're saying, but I'm confused as to how it relates to these girls. I know of one guy that got away with rape for years, decades. I still keep track of him. He was never prosecuted, never caught that I am aware. Are you thinking this guy 'took a break' after killing the girls? I was thinking he may have taken a break but more out of fear of being recognized. Maybe he left the area, maybe temporarily, maybe for good. But if someone shows up sporting new beard, different hair color, different hair style, contact lenses/glasses, whatever changes in appearance. That should be a major clue.

This is the problem. I think it was so quick that for him, nothing has changed.

He somehow incorporated the killings into his routine, mentally, it was never a major event.

Repressed memories have been discussed here. I think he, too, would have knowingly suppressed the whole episode in his mind were it not for the interest of the public.

From this standpoint, the video is great. The video drags him to that day. It would have been so much better if we had billboards with the photo of the guy all over the country. Because my feeling is - he was not totally local, probably lived 1-2 hours away from Delphi, and has moved for the reason that is so typical, no one would even think of it as suspicious. As to knowing the place, anyone with the knack for hiking could soon get to know it.

From my observation, growing a beard and shaving one’s balding would have been more than enough for a major change in his looks.

I think I have already mentioned it - I have come across someone that let out a long beard and plaited the side of it. That plait drew all my attention. The color of his eyes, his face, are such a blur in my memory. Now if he shaves off the beard, I won’t recognize him.

(I honestly hope that they have the DNA because were he really keen on disguising himself, he could do something more radical.)

 

[Charlot123]

I'm no learned Midwestener, but I'm distrustful and my hinky sense is going off very fast sometimes. People around me would think, I'm nuts, when I have a reason for expressing one of my "sharp-eyed" ("sharp-felt") observations.

You are right: with the perp standing in a "keep-distance-row" in front of Starbucks for a grab-and-go, I wouldn't recognize him, if he is wearing a cap of some sort and if he behaves inconspicuously and relatively silent. If wearing no cap and maybe ie. a blazer, you can't be sure, I wouldn't recognize him. Okay, sunglasses might be an obstacle - I have to have a look at his eyes. Indeed, I'm sure, he wouldn't look at me one single time, so the chance would be minimal for seeing his eyes.
He is skimming this thread also, you think? He is ashamed, embarrassed not a bit to pursue his abnormal hobby?? - He seems to be grammatically and in terms of punctuation very much on the ball - so, he will have no enjoyment with reading some posts like mine. Maybe, he is tolerant.
Wonder, what he can't tolerate on certain female teenagers or women. The "thorn in his eye" - what exactly is it?

- Justice for Abby and Libby from Delphi, the Iowa cousins, the Camp Gladiator and some more. -

I think when he wants to kill, he wants to kill. However...

All depends on the age.

I think if he, indeed, is minimally religious and in the 40-50 group, he can not tolerate “modern” things. Behaviors that could hint at bisexuality, for example, tomboys, kids that are unruly.

If he is in 20-30 group, I think he’d be attracted to something. Maybe he has a sister or a girlfriend that vaguely resembles Abby.

 

[Charlot123]

Maybe, he is a "prevented actor" so-to-say and it's easy for him, to show "the average guy", which in truth he isn't. On the contrary, he hates to be only "the average guy" in everyone's eyes, I believe. MOO

I would bet this is 100% on the mark. He is probably very astute in his remarks, too (this is how he might stand out - a guy that is very average and “plays average” but is smarter than average, and can not conceal is).

 

[Ozoner]

I think when he wants to kill, he wants to kill. However...

All depends on age.

I think if he, indeed, is minimally religious and in the 40-50 group, he can not tolerate “modern” things. Behaviors that could hint at bisexuality, for example, tomboys, kids that are unruly.

If he is in 20-30 group, I think he’d be attracted to something. Maybe he has a sister or a girlfriend that vaguely resembles Abby.

As Kell1 indicated, the cops are playing the percentages when they say that BG is local. No non-local person should be ruled out. The detectives investigating Israel Keyes's various murders probably thought the perp was local, too.

 

[rosesfromangels]

FBI seeks behavioral changes in Delphi case

Respectfully snipped for focus and response.
I certainly understand the points made in the article.
However, I speculate the Perp(s) who slaughtered these beautiful children slithered away from the crime scene, went home and had a nice big meal. They might have even seemed in unusually elevated, good spirits. They slept like a baby that night.
Because, they don't have a conscious. Their moral compass malfunctions. They are irreparably, defective miscreants.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Trebor5591]

I listened to a new Nancy Grace "crime Stories" podcast about the Delphi Murders. Kelsi G. and Becky P were both guests, along with some crime investigation experts & reporters. Here are some things mentioned in the podcast:

- Kelsi has nightmares where she is with the girls on the bridge but somehow separated from them. She sees the murderer approaching, but she can not make out his face, she tries to go to the girls but she can barely move.
- Kelsi didn't see anyone else when she dropped the girls off at the trail that day
- Becky says the police have not told her or the family if the girls had been sexually assaulted
- Becky says when they were looking for the girls the first day, she asked AT&T for the last location where Libbys phone was pinged and AT&T would not provide that information to her
- The local sheriff Tobe L says there is a partial fingerprint and some DNA (how much and what kind is not said) of the perpetrator

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aH...ldWkLpCvJ6_MkMoDFk6HnKly9yNeSjlOW05tH0TA6jRGs

 

[Falling Down]

Good article, thanks for posting. Besides the polygraph info there was something else in it that surprised me. It surprises only because it's been stated so many times in the media that the opposite was the case. BBM

"Police have not released how Abby and Libby died, but say the teens' immediate family members know the answer. Even without such details, the community is still trying to cope with the loss, too."

If that's accurate it could mean certain facts about the scene and murders could be out there. JMO

I go off the premise that this is merely a media article, they need to get ad revenue, clicks, etc. So the information is ambiguous, at best, sometimes.

LE would never tell anyone not intimately involved in an investigation how someone died, before an arrest. Not in 2020 America.

JMO

 

[Ozoner]

I listened to a new Nancy Grace "crime Stories" podcast about the Delphi Murders. Kelsi G. and Becky P were both guests, along with some crime investigation experts & reporters. Here are some things mentioned in the podcast:

- Kelsi has nightmares where she is with the girls on the bridge but somehow separated from them. She sees the murderer approaching, but she can not make out his face, she tries to go to the girls but she can barely move.
- Kelsi didn't see anyone else when she dropped the girls off at the trail that day
- Becky says the police have not told her or the family if the girls had been sexually assaulted
- Becky says when they were looking for the girls the first day, she asked AT&T for the last location where Libbys phone was pinged and AT&T would not provide that information to her
- The local sheriff Tobe L says there is a partial fingerprint and some DNA (how much and what kind is not said) of the perpetrator

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aH...ldWkLpCvJ6_MkMoDFk6HnKly9yNeSjlOW05tH0TA6jRGs

BBM
-
Did Leazenby say that on camera, or was Nancy Grace quoting or paraphrasing him? I've noticed in other podcasts that Nancy is not always careful about quoting people word for word. I know Leazenby has said that investigators have DNA evidence, but I'd be surprised if he came right out and said it was from the perpetrator.

 

[Falling Down]

I've heard from members in the military that SPECOPS operators, such as those in the Army's Operational Det D (Delta) or the Navy's Special Warfare Development Group (SEAL Team Six) may be called upon to do surveillance in a foreign country. For this they find it advantageous to use individuals who don't stand out in a crowd. For example, a blonde haired man who is 6'6" may not be the ideal person walking around in Lebanon. Many of the SEAL Team Six I saw were not even six foot tall and with a beard and no military haircut, I would not pick them out in a crowd. That BG is just an average looking guy may be why we have some confusion on the sketches. If he lives in Indianapolis, Chicago or Louisville KY and I stood in line next to him at a coffee shop I probably wouldn't give him a second thought.

BG looks like he could be in a Rural King commercial.

I shop there a few times per year myself.

JMO

 

[JDough]

Ways to transfer DNA are limitless, it can be direct or indirect transfer, the sources however are limited to any biological material that we possess.

As listed above, the most common are Blood, Semen, saliva, or vaginal secretions, hair, skin, in some cases, feces, Urine is a very poor source, because the dilute and sparse nucleated cells, touch DNA is a relatively new source, but its been debated because lets say if someone sneezes or coughs in an area, it can contaminate the scene . Touch DNA was found in the Jon Benet Ramsey case, and it was discounted because it can literally come from anyone . This was the basis for the "intruder" theory.

-"suggestive evidence" sounds like they have what they think is fingerprints, but they may have been marred someway that made them difficult to use

-Multiple victims, means more than one offender is possible, there may be physical evidence to support it but they aren't letting on .

-In abduction murders of kids, the offender usually lives or works nearby, they operate in an area they feel safe, they are well aware that what they are going to do will draw attention, and there's some anxiety before and during, in some cases, they know fully that they are going to kill the victim, therefore they choose someplace they are familiar with. In this case, we have 2!, that would indicate someone extremely comfortable with the area where the girls were found, remember the spatial relationship of 200 feet from the murder scene to the body recovery site, he most likely killed the girls where they were found, especially with multiple victims. He knew to get them out of sight, off that trail, he knew where it was secluded, he knew he could get out of there unseen or without drawing suspicion.

That's why they feel its a local, because it almost always is .

-

Thank you!

 

[JDough]

I agree. If LE were to announce the public was in danger, some immediate action is required in order to ensure the safety of the community such as lock your doors, stay in your house, hide in your basement, stay away from a certain area etc. Instead in this case LE told people to be aware of their surroundings, to walk in groups, etc, actions which promote safety.

This topic arises in virtually every murder case, how can police say a community is safe after a murder has occurred.

It’s the job of LE to ensure safety - danger is present when an active threat is known. Otherwise I’m certain people in any community are smart enough to realize any unsolved murder case involves a murderer who is currently walking free and don’t require LE to spell out the fact that anyone capable of murder can be considered dangerous.....one of the reasons he’d be arrested if LE were able to identify the suspect, as in all unsolved murder cases everywhere. JMO

I have always wondered if some of these early statements from LE were because they (maybe) thought an arrest would be made quickly? "No need to worry, folks. We have a suspect that we will be taking into custody within the next few days", kind of mentality?