Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #123

[Kell1]

If you go back and listen to some of the interviews with investigators that took place in the first three months after the murders, they literally said this...expressed the exact thought you've written here. I'm thinking of one in particular with Sgt. Holeman where he said in the first two weeks they assumed it would be solved immediately and he couldn't believe it was two months on and it was still unsolved (though he still expressed optimism that it would be).

I think that local police generally have an idea of who the local "bad actors" are, and in this case it's my opinion that very early on some of the investigators were zeroed in on a particular sex offender from the Kokomo area who had an abduction/assault in his criminal history of an underage victim. I'm not going to put his initials here, though many of you who've been here from the beginning can guess who I'm referring to. I even think that the original sketch we saw may have been somewhat influenced by LE leaning in this direction. However, IMO this "good candidate" was eventually ruled out (perhaps by DNA, perhaps other things didn't fit) and they had to start over. I will say that if you read the details of the crime he was convicted of, and went to jail for, you couldn't NOT look at him seriously for the Delphi case. All MOO.

You have to remember this may not even be a case of sexual homicide, though I think the overwhelming gut response is that it is , and I wouldn't be any different in that aspect .

Unless its released that they were sexually assaulted, all we know is that the 2 girls were killed, how, and why are left to the imagination.

If this was an abduction murder for sexual purposes (which it may be, and probably is) then the individual you are talking about above is a great example of the type of person usually responsible

Though he was ruled out as a suspect, for whatever reason, I can say with a very high level of confidence that though hes not responsible , the individual you are looking for would not be all that different than the man you speak of .


This is again all speculative because of what we don't know .

 

[Deleted member 102539]

This makes him smart in my eyes, and it is sad that he used this potential against two scared teenagers.

^^ This, unfortunately.

 

[Tiger Stripes]

I read what you're saying, but I'm confused as to how it relates to these girls. I know of one guy that got away with rape for years, decades. I still keep track of him. He was never prosecuted, never caught that I am aware. Are you thinking this guy 'took a break' after killing the girls? I was thinking he may have taken a break but more out of fear of being recognized. Maybe he left the area, maybe temporarily, maybe for good. But if someone shows up sporting new beard, different hair color, different hair style, contact lenses/glasses, whatever changes in appearance. That should be a major clue.

MOO is simply "out-of-the-box", in that I *don't* believe that the Delphi killer has left any DNA (of any variety) in a rape kit from pre-Abby and Libby. (Note: I am *not* saying to ignore/do nothing with the countless rape kits across the country; that was *not* my point!)

--
ETA: I don't *doubt* that some criminals do take a day/week/month to do a "personal makeover" (i. e., perhaps changing hair color/style, switching between contacts/glasses, etc.). The Delphi killer is so brazen (yes, that's the word) that he freely circulates here, there, wherever (including in and out of Delphi) as himself with nary a care (after all, he's an "untouchable" -- all JMOO).

Oh -- and he scoffs to read that some think he would be caught *alive* in our lifetimes.

Arrogant?

Unbelievably so.

(But...to those few who know him well, he is the *picture* of a perfect gentleman; thus, his even being *considered* as a potential POI seems a ridiculous impossibility. Imagine being LE, having to deal with a character like that...)

 

[ogls]

I am surprised that DNA has not linked anyone yet. So many of us think it's a local person. And they have asked locals for DNA. I can't imagine that anyone would refuse. I'd love to see the list of people who have not submitted DNA and do not have any family members who have done so. I bet it's a short list.

Hi! A few days ago, I seen this mentioned in another thread. I see you all been involved for 3 years, you all have many details and I wonder what they are? I have crazy ideas about this that's evolved over several days of crazy writing and thoughts. Trying to shorten crazy is hard

I believe LE can catch BG based on FAMILY DNA and other records. BG has done this before, I consider him serial killer, multiple at least hey Mods.

Familiar with location, has ties, is transient, blends in well comfy. He's low key under radar, keeps to self. First I thought he'd park in walmart, but no, nearby BG would park in cemetary that is nearby location of bodies.

BG is fam w/area and at least a week in there, has to be spotted on cams from markets, etc. using restroom? Somebody had to see him but not realize it.

BG dressed for the elements, hikin boots, jeans, fanny pack w/stuff, hooded sweatshirt, outer jacket, cap, facial hair (time to grow over the period of being in the area looking for "perfect victim"). BG had to of given creeps to others, supposedly, kids/teens frequent there in lil spots.

2 murders of humans, of 2 girls is sickB, it's risky too, he had to of tried before, then found these 2 as the "perfect ones".

BG had to of had his spot preplanned, across the river, if there were dogs? Some where sheltered, if a chopper was flown? camouflage, experienced camper, duct tape for silence? gun for control?

Il, Indy, Mi, Oh, from peoria, more like champaign, to michigan city, gary, toledo, lima. BG had to of had tickets/citations nearby. Transient mixed with coming back to Indy to register vehicle? Who's registered gun owners? early - 50s at time in photo- like 53.

Sees the girls, follows, sees opportunity, they get creeped out, start recording/documenting, but not enough to dial 911, they didn't think this kind of danger, is this the time in photo? he's reaching to take safety off gun, imo, needs to be ready to point. Confronts girls, points more at weaker one, to leverage her friend, fanny pack zip ties/duct tape, walks to end of path, don't thinkn down hill, but he points in that direction they go and across the river, not going to talk about what I think happened at preplanned spot.

Goes to cemetary where he parked his car and leaves. I'm scared n disgusted with my thoughts.

 

[Tiger Stripes]

No Midwesterner would ever say "at Midwest." We would say, "in the Midwest." (Please don't take offense at this question, but is English a second language for you?)

Hey there, @Ozoner, @Charlot123 is a *polyglot* (and may very well be our own WS Delta Force or SEAL team member). Love that we have so many interesting, talented, insightful members here!

 

[mimimarge]

I agree with this, except for the distance.

LE and other keep saying "a half mile", I've even heard a mile from the bridge. This confused the daylights out of me and many other people sleuthing the case early on.

The orange line in the image below indicates the distance/path involved from the SE end of the bridge to the CS. It's approximately 650 feet.

I think they zig-zagged from the SE corner of the bridge to the CS so the distance was not a straight line. Plus the distance of the hill itself.

 

[mimimarge]

Hi! A few days ago, I seen this mentioned in another thread. I see you all been involved for 3 years, you all have many details and I wonder what they are? I have crazy ideas about this that's evolved over several days of crazy writing and thoughts. Trying to shorten crazy is hard

I believe LE can catch BG based on FAMILY DNA and other records. BG has done this before, I consider him serial killer, multiple at least hey Mods.

Familiar with location, has ties, is transient, blends in well comfy. He's low key under radar, keeps to self. First I thought he'd park in walmart, but no, nearby BG would park in cemetary that is nearby location of bodies.

BG is fam w/area and at least a week in there, has to be spotted on cams from markets, etc. using restroom? Somebody had to see him but not realize it.

BG dressed for the elements, hikin boots, jeans, fanny pack w/stuff, hooded sweatshirt, outer jacket, cap, facial hair (time to grow over the period of being in the area looking for "perfect victim"). BG had to of given creeps to others, supposedly, kids/teens frequent there in lil spots.

2 murders of humans, of 2 girls is sickB, it's risky too, he had to of tried before, then found these 2 as the "perfect ones".

BG had to of had his spot preplanned, across the river, if there were dogs? Some where sheltered, if a chopper was flown? camouflage, experienced camper, duct tape for silence? gun for control?

Il, Indy, Mi, Oh, from peoria, more like champaign, to michigan city, gary, toledo, lima. BG had to of had tickets/citations nearby. Transient mixed with coming back to Indy to register vehicle? Who's registered gun owners? early - 50s at time in photo- like 53.

Sees the girls, follows, sees opportunity, they get creeped out, start recording/documenting, but not enough to dial 911, they didn't think this kind of danger, is this the time in photo? he's reaching to take safety off gun, imo, needs to be ready to point. Confronts girls, points more at weaker one, to leverage her friend, fanny pack zip ties/duct tape, walks to end of path, don't thinkn down hill, but he points in that direction they go and across the river, not going to talk about what I think happened at preplanned spot.

Goes to cemetary where he parked his car and leaves. I'm scared n disgusted with my thoughts.

You got me thinking. He parks by the cemetery and makes a circuitous route to freedom bridge on foot. Then comes down trail like he parked at freedom bridge parking lot. Thinking out loud.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Now people are talking like it's been established that he was wearing glasses, which isn't the case. I don't see any glasses in the video of BG, and neither of the witness-generated sketches includes glasses..

Respectfully snipped for focus and response.
*THank you* Ozoner. LE has *not* said anything about glasses, nor do the sketches suggest this. Please, lets not confuse people. To do so unwittingly (although innocently), aids and abets the criminal(s).

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[rosesfromangels]

....duplicate. WS hiccup : )

 

[CluelessWonder]

Thanks to Ozoner for getting me thinking about things in a new way.

One thing that came to mind is that the girls may have communicated with someone by CB. Sure, it's old-fashioned. But CBs are still used by truckers, I believe. And people in rural areas may still use them. I wonder if they had access to one at home or in a family member's or friend's vehicle.

 

[Marzipan]

Ive never seen any agency do that .

Especially an agency so concerned about loosing the case in court that they are sitting on a bunch of evidence.

These cases, are tough on agencies like the FBI, a small department like Delphi that rarely sees 1 homicide let alone 2 at the same time is a tall task.

I do not believe they botched this case, at all, I think they took no chances, and brought in the FBI, which almost certainly is coaching them in this .

Now I feel this case is solvable, but again, they are sitting on info that most larger depts would most likely let out .

So whay are they ? because they aren't used to these kind of cases, this would be difficult to deal with in cny city in the US, they are doing their best , but they don't want to see a killer walk free because they didnt do their due diligence, that's why it may almost seem "amateur" with it, because due to what they deal with on a regular basis .... They are amateur.

But I commend them on how they are handling this case, I just know in a large Dept that sees homicides regularly, most likely more wouldve, been made known.

@Kell1 Could you please add your thoughts on why they haven’t released a shoe size or other shoe information? They must have that. I’m a broken record on wanting this and not seeing how it couldn’t be more helpful than problematic. It’s probably the only thing I ever post about! I’d love your thoughts...and then my friends I will let it go.

 

[Yemelyan]

You have to remember this may not even be a case of sexual homicide, though I think the overwhelming gut response is that it is , and I wouldn't be any different in that aspect .

Unless its released that they were sexually assaulted, all we know is that the 2 girls were killed, how, and why are left to the imagination.

If this was an abduction murder for sexual purposes (which it may be, and probably is) then the individual you are talking about above is a great example of the type of person usually responsible

Though he was ruled out as a suspect, for whatever reason, I can say with a very high level of confidence that though hes not responsible , the individual you are looking for would not be all that different than the man you speak of .


This is again all speculative because of what we don't know .

I agree with you there...this is all speculative and we don't know, but IMO, sexual gratification was at the heart of it. It's the only thing that fits for me, I can't get behind the revenge theories or the "they saw him cooking meth" theories or "they giggled and he snapped." Even if he didn't "technically" sexually assault them, IMO whatever he did that day was sexual *to him*. I look at the statistics of these types of crimes and the fact that the first thing LE did was go after the type of individuals I mentioned in my post, and then I think about their clothes in the creek and that's just the only conclusion I personally can come to.

I would love to know how they ruled out that specific individual we are talking about, but of course, we aren't entitled to know. Like you, I think when the identity of BG is known, it will be a person with very similar attributes.

 

[Vivyinsect]

Till now, only one type of intelligence is measurable, and it is academic one. Harvard is working at tests measuring socio-emotional intelligence, and the work is slow. And then, consider the ability to use one’s intelligence to the maximum that is also difficult to measure.

So far, BG is overplaying everyone. Maybe there is something else on his side, but ultimately, he must have factored everything in and predicted the reaction to his crime, too. This makes him smart in my eyes, and it is sad that he used this potential against two scared teenagers.

Yes, You are correct. It just makes me so mad that someone could be sitting there feeling smug about getting away with murder. I would love to say to their face, “you aren’t special, you just took advantage of a situation.” I get all “mama bear” mad and think...why don’t you try to start *advertiser censored* with me! I am confident that this person will be caught one day and we’ll find out how much was just dumb luck.

 

[Ozoner]

I agree with you there...this is all speculative and we don't know, but IMO, sexual gratification was at the heart of it. It's the only thing that fits for me, I can't get behind the revenge theories or the "they saw him cooking meth" theories or "they giggled and he snapped." Even if he didn't "technically" sexually assault them, IMO whatever he did that day was sexual *to him*. I look at the statistics of these types of crimes and the fact that the first thing LE did was go after the type of individuals I mentioned in my post, and then I think about their clothes in the creek and that's just the only conclusion I personally can come to.

I would love to know how they ruled out that specific individual we are talking about, but of course, we aren't entitled to know. Like you, I think when the identity of BG is known, it will be a person with very similar attributes.

I'm not sure which offender you're referring to.
-
Some offenders may have been ruled out based on height, but I can't help but wonder how reliable the height estimate for BG is.
-
If the height estimate is based in part on the length of his stride from footprints found near the crime scene, it may be that he was reducing his stride—taking shorter steps than usual—in order to match the pace of the victims.
-
As for the video evidence, he may have been slouching.

 

[sunshineray]

Hi! A few days ago, I seen this mentioned in another thread. I see you all been involved for 3 years, you all have many details and I wonder what they are? I have crazy ideas about this that's evolved over several days of crazy writing and thoughts. Trying to shorten crazy is hard

I believe LE can catch BG based on FAMILY DNA and other records. BG has done this before, I consider him serial killer, multiple at least hey Mods.

Familiar with location, has ties, is transient, blends in well comfy. He's low key under radar, keeps to self. First I thought he'd park in walmart, but no, nearby BG would park in cemetary that is nearby location of bodies.

BG is fam w/area and at least a week in there, has to be spotted on cams from markets, etc. using restroom? Somebody had to see him but not realize it.

BG dressed for the elements, hikin boots, jeans, fanny pack w/stuff, hooded sweatshirt, outer jacket, cap, facial hair (time to grow over the period of being in the area looking for "perfect victim"). BG had to of given creeps to others, supposedly, kids/teens frequent there in lil spots.

2 murders of humans, of 2 girls is sickB, it's risky too, he had to of tried before, then found these 2 as the "perfect ones".

BG had to of had his spot preplanned, across the river, if there were dogs? Some where sheltered, if a chopper was flown? camouflage, experienced camper, duct tape for silence? gun for control?

Il, Indy, Mi, Oh, from peoria, more like champaign, to michigan city, gary, toledo, lima. BG had to of had tickets/citations nearby. Transient mixed with coming back to Indy to register vehicle? Who's registered gun owners? early - 50s at time in photo- like 53.

Sees the girls, follows, sees opportunity, they get creeped out, start recording/documenting, but not enough to dial 911, they didn't think this kind of danger, is this the time in photo? he's reaching to take safety off gun, imo, needs to be ready to point. Confronts girls, points more at weaker one, to leverage her friend, fanny pack zip ties/duct tape, walks to end of path, don't thinkn down hill, but he points in that direction they go and across the river, not going to talk about what I think happened at preplanned spot.

Goes to cemetary where he parked his car and leaves. I'm scared n disgusted with my thoughts.

You bring up a point I really hadn't thought on.

"BG had to of had his spot preplanned, across the river, if there were dogs?"

3 retired FBI had mentioned in a podcast that they thought BG had a "lair" set up to bring his victims. RL's property abuts the trail system land. If BG picked this spot ahead of time, he must have known if RL had dogs that roamed property or were kept close to the house.

Anyone know if RL had any dogs? I've heard horses but they don't really spook much if they're by their shelter.

 

[chaz]

You bring up a point I really hadn't thought on.

"BG had to of had his spot preplanned, across the river, if there were dogs?"

3 retired FBI had mentioned in a podcast that they thought BG had a "lair" set up to bring his victims. RL's property abuts the trail system land. If BG picked this spot ahead of time, he must have known if RL had dogs that roamed property or were kept close to the house.

Anyone know if RL had any dogs? I've heard horses but they don't really spook much if they're by their shelter.

I believe he has a small dog (there is one in this video).

 

[MistyWaters]

A death certificate can be issued without the cause or manner of death listed. A death certificate does one thing: prove that a person is no longer living. The reason a person is no longer living (MOD/COD) can be listed as undetermined, pending, deferred, etc. It does not have to state a specific reason.

For example; my daughter's cause of death is listed as "deferred", and the manner of death is listed as "homicide". This may happen when the autopsy report is sealed, and/or an investigation is pending. These terms are a legally accepted cause or manner of death. The information can be amended at a later date by the medical examiner's office.

Just to conclude the discussion about whether or not the immediate family has been informed of how the girls died, it was not my opinion. It began with this quote below -

“Police have not released how Abby and Libby died, but say the teens' immediate family members know the answer. Even without such details, the community is still trying to cope with the loss, too...”
'Please, we need your help': Libby German's grandfather speaks

 

[MistyWaters]

You bring up a point I really hadn't thought on.

"BG had to of had his spot preplanned, across the river, if there were dogs?"

3 retired FBI had mentioned in a podcast that they thought BG had a "lair" set up to bring his victims. RL's property abuts the trail system land. If BG picked this spot ahead of time, he must have known if RL had dogs that roamed property or were kept close to the house.

Anyone know if RL had any dogs? I've heard horses but they don't really spook much if they're by their shelter.

If my memory is correct, RLs parcel of land consisted of 40 acres and his house was located in the far, opposite corner from the end of the bridge. The treed land also rose steeply upward from the river and where the bodies were found...even though at one point RL referred to the area were the bodies were found as “his backyard”. WS members have posted maps here in the past which also indicate there were other dwellings closer in distance to the crime scene than RLs place.

I think it’s likely the killer was familiar with the area or at the least had recently walked it in advance a few times prior to that fateful day. It seems the retired FBI talking-heads presume the killer was a stranger passing through with no knowledge of the surroundings whatsoever.

 

[JnRyan]

Yes, You are correct. It just makes me so mad that someone could be sitting there feeling smug about getting away with murder. I would love to say to their face, “you aren’t special, you just took advantage of a situation.” I get all “mama bear” mad and think...why don’t you try to start **** with me! I am confident that this person will be caught one day and we’ll find out how much was just dumb luck.

I sometimes sit and consider that this killer really put a lot of planning into committing these murders and he is probably a very smart guy. Then I stop and think, if he was so smart then how did he let himself get caught on video and audio. Yeah, one day he is going to be sitting in a prison cell and his cell mate is going to say, "Yeah, you got caught on video...it happens to the smartest of us." To him I say, keep running you dumb coward, each day that passes is one day closer to your arrest.

 

[rosesfromangels]

if he was so smart then how did he let himself get caught on video and audio.... To him I say, keep running you dumb coward, each day that passes is one day closer to your arrest.

Snipped and abbreviated for focus and commentary response.
*Exactly* This is no criminal master mind. He just cornered the children in a remote area without detection. He's likely too dumb to be scared. But he should be....real scared. What a loser.

Amateur opinion and speculation