Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #123

[JnRyan]

He had to have known, unless he'd been living under a rock for years, that everyone has a cell phone and utilizes having a camera/video recorder with them at all times. He had to of noticed Libby taking Abby's picture or scenery shots that day if he was following them along the trail.

Do you think he was not attuned to how the data game all works? Maybe he thought he destroyed Libby's phone not knowing most phone's are set to back up data to the cloud automatically?

I still wonder why and how LE found her phone at all.

I thought about that too until lead ISP investigator, 1Sgt Holeman, was asked if the killer knew about the cell phone and the possibility of a video. He stated that in his opinion the killer was not aware of it. He wouldn't say why he thought that, however.

 

[RIP Meagan + Johnny]

Re: RL owning dogs

I’m pretty sure RL had a dog with him during one of the video interviews after the murder. Let me see if I can find it.

Edit: not finding it, but some videos that are attached to articles are no longer accessible.

~RIP M+J

 

[ogls]

You bring up a point I really hadn't thought on.

"BG had to of had his spot preplanned, across the river, if there were dogs?"

3 retired FBI had mentioned in a podcast that they thought BG had a "lair" set up to bring his victims. RL's property abuts the trail system land. If BG picked this spot ahead of time, he must have known if RL had dogs that roamed property or were kept close to the house.

Anyone know if RL had any dogs? I've heard horses but they don't really spook much if they're by their shelter.

You guys got so many great points. I kept coming back to Delphi while doing this and that the cemetary has be. I thought about him getting dropped off, someone would tell/know, or parking nearby, it would be noticed. BUT, in the cemetary there's hardly anyone. I'm sorry as kids, at least us american kids, we hung out there at time skippin school because there isn't anyone. NOW I'm stopping myself to add this: since there are kids there/trail, maybe some were near/in cemetary??? Maybe thinks they will get in trouble? Anyone ping friends of theirs?

Creepy but yeah I'd agree, a spot- I got the feeling Lovely Bones when I started reading up on this. Well hidden and planned. As in that movie, you wouldn't know about the bunker. Same with the under ground bunkers in war, we had no idea they would come from below/Tet strike-Art of War taught me a lil.

I saw 2 white dog in a previous video looked like terrier and those are lil snappers. I wonder if either dog received an injury? How does the owner keep them?

The "lair" should be by the creek, within walking distance at least if you have a lair. He wouldn't use a building that's not absolute control-absolute control is in your bunker. I'd be flipping over trees and using sticks to poke the ground. Maybe some type of echo radar? would give an indentation mark, I think, to find a frickin "lair"?

I'd say, hunting knife and gun (can I speculate that?) because those are common for hunting/camping. I will not outright say I believe those to be used in this ahem. But, if I were to subdue 2 people esp fit teen, they would be afraid of bullets than possibly getting a branch/rock to hit me. I'd point at the little one, to control the bigger threat. Tell em keep on walking.

BG had to of planned, the outfit is enough for me. Time of day, when park would close, not many people going in that direction. The girls thought they would run into someone at least. Should of tried 911 but instead recorded in case others could help.

BG isn't scared of being recorded, he covered up enough to not be recognized. He probably doesn't have a criminal record to worry about. Had to of left dna somewhere, but not worried, as long as he stays low.

So, he must maintain a job. Has to be a job that allows travel, do your dirt and not around long enough to get in trouble. But there's gotta be something, ticket/citation/something.

BG is bow-legged. I think an interview said, he's a teacher/his command, I think probably was/is retired Gym teacher. Now he's doing sales? or trucking??

Does his crime with his car parked in that cemetary, then off to home and off to work on the road. Not missing a beat, but LE would. I can't think this guy lives in his moms basement-I think he has a family. Edit2: yeah, he lives around there, probably was at that LE press release too or at least watching it

He is a coward, he creeps and waits for people in open places where we feel safe. He's old tho, I'm worried he'll die before they get him. I feel bad for any guy who looks like him near edit: me-stink eye hard.

Edit3: Low key, not bars/trouble, church/like knights of columbus/goodfellows type group, probably even played Santa Claus or Kenny Rodgers (don't ask IDK), brunette wife, at least 1 son, maybe 2, 1 in college 1 to graduate high school? Took his son out to trail to scope it out without suspicion?
Yep I'm reaching Edit4: SUPER REACH-I'd post on social media about my outing with my dad. Geotag search of images within the week prior to this event?

 

[ogls]

I thought about that too until lead ISP investigator, 1Sgt Holeman, was asked if the killer knew about the cell phone and the possibility of a video. He stated that in his opinion the killer was not aware of it. He wouldn't say why he thought that, however.

WOW AND OMG there is a LOT more like probably everything on there -where is this said please?

 

[JDough]

He had to have known, unless he'd been living under a rock for years, that everyone has a cell phone and utilizes having a camera/video recorder with them at all times. He had to of noticed Libby taking Abby's picture or scenery shots that day if he was following them along the trail.

Do you think he was not attuned to how the data game all works? Maybe he thought he destroyed Libby's phone not knowing most phone's are set to back up data to the cloud automatically?

I still wonder why and how LE found her phone at all.

Hi @sunshineray, I'm not sure if this is the information you are looking for, and I could be wrong, but I believe the audio and video may have come directly from Libby's phone?

ISP: More audio recovered from slain Delphi teen's phone

[...] Sgt. Holeman tells us investigators recovered more audio from Libby’s phone, which was found with the girls at the crime scene. [...]

Like you, I am not certain if BG did not know Libby had a phone, notice he was being recorded, thought that by damaging or destroying the phone it may not be recoverable (or retrievable from iCloud), or he was in a hurry to leave the crime scene and couldn't find it? It will definitely be interesting to see why he left incriminating evidence at the crime scene.

 

[JDough]

Just to conclude the discussion about whether or not the immediate family has been informed of how the girls died, it was not my opinion. It began with this quote below -

“Police have not released how Abby and Libby died, but say the teens' immediate family members know the answer. Even without such details, the community is still trying to cope with the loss, too...”
'Please, we need your help': Libby German's grandfather speaks

My sincere apologies. I thought I was replying to the post below regarding death certificate information. Wasn't disputing the article posted. Just trying to provide additional information. Sorry for the confusion.

Wouldn’t the immediate family receive a death certificate which records the cause of death, if not the full autopsy report from the coroner? That’s not issued by police. JMO whether or not they’re cleared by LE is not directly connected to the fact their family member is deceased and a death certificate represents the confirmation.

Otherwise how would anyone related to a murder victim involving an unsolved homicide case go about settling the estate, collecting insurance or applying for other death benefits, etc?

 

[ogls]

I wondered how you could park in the cemetary and not be nervous/of getting noticed. Found a video on youtube that does the drive in the cemetary and shows where you can be hidden parked above where the girls were located as well. IDK if I can post a link.

 

[JnRyan]

WOW AND OMG there is a LOT more like probably everything on there -where is this said please?

Hard to find as it is in a Facebook post. About 1:40 into the video.
The Delphi Murders: An HLN Investigation

 

[Falling Down]

I wondered how you could park in the cemetary and not be nervous/of getting noticed. Found a video on youtube that does the drive in the cemetary and shows where you can be hidden parked above where the girls were located as well. IDK if I can post a link.

I was convinced the cemetery had to be the escape for BG, and I drove it when I was out there.

Now that I've thought more about it in the last year or so, and taking the CPS building stuff into consideration after that was brought up last year at the PC, I think BG parking at the cemetery would be less low-profile for him, vs. the CPS building. That may seem a bit counter-intuitive, but I think people driving by a non-descript vehicle would be even less-inclined to remember details about it than one they parked near to.

JMO

 

[somequestions]

He had to have known, unless he'd been living under a rock for years, that everyone has a cell phone and utilizes having a camera/video recorder with them at all times. He had to of noticed Libby taking Abby's picture or scenery shots that day if he was following them along the trail.

Do you think he was not attuned to how the data game all works? Maybe he thought he destroyed Libby's phone not knowing most phone's are set to back up data to the cloud automatically?

I still wonder why and how LE found her phone at all.

I think it really depends on whether or not he actually tried to destroy Libby's phone? I have an interesting take on it that is a different interpretation of what it might mean. So here is my possible deduction concerning Liberty German's phone.

What it suggests to me is that this man on the bridge was not following or stalking Abby and Libby. The reason is that if he had been watching them on the bridge he would have seen Libby using her cell phone. I think he did not know he was being audio/video recorded. I do not think Libby started recording because she thought this man was watching them. I think it was a movement he made towards Abby that got Libby's attention.

Until the facts are stated regarding whether or not the killer tried to destroy Libby's phone, that is what I think. It would not surprise me if the killer never even touched Libby's phone.

 

[sunshineray]

IMO, BG had at least some knowledge of the 'activity' on those private properties along the creek.

The one neighbor, the only one who would have had a clear line-of-sight from their house/property to where the girls and BG would have crossed the creek, was out-of-town that day and normally lives out-of-state during that time of year.

Any dogs he had up by his house, which is close to C.R. 300, would not be aware of activity down in the gorge. I do believe BG took this into consideration, making sure pets and horses would not be down in the gorge.

I understand people do take horses down there, periodically. Plus RL boards horses for people, anyway, so it stands to reason most of his 40 acres are used for horseback riding.

JMO

I didn't realize he boarded horses. So people could have been out riding throughout RL's property, especially on a warmer than normal day. Why pick a spot you know could have riders on a nice day? Was the killer careful and planned or was he just spur of the moment and lucky?

 

[Deleted member 102539]

BG isn't scared of being recorded, IMO, yes, not in the least.
he covered up enough to not be recognized. IMO, yes, special outfits (constantly changing) for special missions.
He probably doesn't have a criminal record to worry about. IMO, yes, it seems.
Had to of left dna somewhere, but not worried, as long as he stays low. IMO, yes.

So, he must maintain a job. IMO, yes, and he does probably most of the time.
Has to be a job that allows travel, IMO, yes, absolutely. Crossing borders even, perhaps.
do your dirt and not around long enough to get in trouble. IMO, yes. Take the exit and take over the part in your "real" life again, minutes (hours) later.
But there's gotta be something, ticket/citation/something. IMO, yes, of course. Probably confusingly scattered across multiple databases.

BG is bow-legged. IMO, no. Maybe, it's the trouser, which is looking like that.
I think an interview said, he's a teacher/his command, I think probably was/is retired Gym teacher. IMO, no.
Now he's doing sales? IMO, yes. Before, during and after Delphi.
or trucking?? IMO, rather not.

Opinion in red by me.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Re: RL owning dogs

I’m pretty sure RL had a dog with him during one of the video interviews after the murder. Let me see if I can find it.

Edit: not finding it, but some videos that are attached to articles are no longer accessible.

~RIP M+J

When RL was showing the "pristine" crime scene, I think, there was a little dog like a Terrier (?) in the picture (vague remembering).

 

[Awsi Dooger]

In these type of cases, the offender is overwhelmingly usually a local in the area for a legitimate reason, this is different than a serial killer who preys on adults like Keys.

What do you mean "in these type of cases"?

Sorry but that would drive me nuts. In my realm it would properly drive everyone nuts. You are overplaying the result to absurd degree. It is a classic example of what I have always emphasized, that law enforcement has zero training in probability.

He didn't go out there that day to kill two teenage girls from Delphi. The victims happened to be two teenaged girls from Delphi.

Once a fixation from the result is removed, then clarity floods in from all directions. Delphi just happens to be the closest small city to that isolated bridge trail adjacent to the greatest getaway road of all time. Therefore Delphi became the plurality favorite as home city of the victim(s). But only the plurality. If Abby and Libby had skipped the visit then the victim could have been Cheyenne, an adult from Monticello.

 

[Falling Down]

What do you mean "in these type of cases"?

Sorry but that would drive me nuts. In my realm it would properly drive everyone nuts. You are overplaying the result to absurd degree. It is a classic example of what I have always emphasized, that law enforcement has zero training in probability.

He didn't go out there that day to kill two teenage girls from Delphi. The victims happened to be two teenaged girls from Delphi.

Once a fixation from the result is removed, then clarity floods in from all directions. Delphi just happens to be the closest small city to that isolated bridge trail adjacent to the greatest getaway road of all time. Therefore Delphi became the plurality favorite as home city of the victim(s). But only the plurality. If Abby and Libby had skipped the visit then the victim could have been Cheyenne, an adult from Monticello.

I agree.

Furthermore, I believe that this killer 'scouted' other public and private (but with public access, as in this case), areas, before choosing that one.

I keep emphasizing I think the construction of the highway had a huge impact on this case.

Figured I would jump in here with a comment.

JMO

 

[Awsi Dooger]

I agree with this, except for the distance.

LE and other keep saying "a half mile", I've even heard a mile from the bridge. This confused the daylights out of me and many other people sleuthing the case early on.

The orange line in the image below indicates the distance/path involved from the SE end of the bridge to the CS. It's approximately 650 feet.

I can't take anyone seriously when they use that half mile reference. It is not sloppy. It is never paying attention.

As you indicated, on a straight line it is less than 200 yards. I have seen sharp online sources who measured it at 170 yards. When I stood in the middle of the creek I turned to my right and was amazed at how close it is. Due to the zigzagging it is longer than 200 yards to get there. However, part of that zigzagging is straight downhill. That tends to happen in a hurry. This is hardly slogging uphill like Johannes Klaebo. They would have been across the creek within a few minutes.

Besides, as I have emphasized several times, across the creek was light years the most logical choice. And it wouldn't have required more than one reconnaissance visit to figure that out. You can't do it at the end of the bridge. given the two homes very close on the same level. You can't do it immediately down the hill given the prominence of the gravel access road that slices through the area. You can't defeat the isolated aspect by marching them back across the bridge, or back underneath the bridge.

So what so you have left? Either in the creek itself, or across the creek. Again that is not exactly a coin flip situation. That cold rushing water might have a tendency to complicate matters. But 20 yards across now you've got an isolated area with plenty of tree cover and that is not visible from either the foot of the bridge or virtually anywhere else. You certainly don't worry about anyone hiking down the slope behind you.

Let's put it this way: An aspiring killer who targeted that bridge would flunk all levels of his profession if he didn't choose that area across the creek.

 

[Awsi Dooger]

I was convinced the cemetery had to be the escape for BG, and I drove it when I was out there.

Now that I've thought more about it in the last year or so, and taking the CPS building stuff into consideration after that was brought up last year at the PC, I think BG parking at the cemetery would be less low-profile for him, vs. the CPS building. That may seem a bit counter-intuitive, but I think people driving by a non-descript vehicle would be even less-inclined to remember details about it than one they parked near to.

JMO

I agree with this 100%. I've always believed that escape through the back way toward the cemetery was easily the most logical. I did not take the short drive to the cemetery, which I now regret. However, I know I have a tendency to push matters. I was worried if I got over there I'd probably be tempted to traipse down toward the bodies location. It would have been 50/50.

I don't think it requires mental images of the cemetery area to grasp the fundamental basics: Bridge Guy knows that this is going to take a while. At absolute minimum he has to be prepared for an hour. Now ask yourself how often cars are parked inside a cemetery for a full hour or more? And especially when it is a small roadside cemetery with locals potentially driving past in either direction. Parking a car there can only be attributed to a cemetery visit. There isn't excuse to visit an adjacent home or business, etc. If a car is sitting there for several hours in mid afternoon yet nobody ever sees someone sitting alongside a headstone, that is great potential to be stand out and be remembered...quickly mentioned to law enforcement.

Bridge Guy knows he can't avoid some risks. Parking at the cemetery would have been a silly risk.

Contrast to parking near the abandoned building. There are several things going on there, from the nearby State Road 25 to the Anderson buildings to Freedom Bridge area to the abandoned building itself. The presence of a vehicle can be rationalized in many ways, to the point it won't stand out.

However, the associated risks are the longer walk back to that area after the murders, and the presence of surveillance cameras on the Andersons buildings not far from the abandoned building. Bridge Guy had to weigh several aspects prior to this crime. Gray Hughes did a video in late October 2019 in which he showed the locations of two cameras on those buildings. I left on my trip a week prior to that video being posted. But I was already curious about the same thing, to the point I drove over there and looked at the specific nearby building. It was smack across from the abandoned building area but not tight to County Road 300. Maybe 50-75 yards removed.

If Bridge Guy did park in that area I think there's a good chance they have faraway video from that camera. It may be the reason that Doug Carter said they have a good idea of the beginning and the end, but not the middle.

I have always been amazed that none of the interviewers ever bother to ask Carter or Leazenby or Ives if law enforcement has video/pictures of Bridge Guy from a source other than Libby's phone. If that question has been posed, it has not been posed often enough. It should be a regular situation of make them respond again.

 

[Falling Down]

I agree with this 100%. I've always believed that escape through the back way toward the cemetery was easily the most logical. I did not take the short drive to the cemetery, which I now regret. However, I know I have a tendency to push matters. I was worried if I got over there I'd probably be tempted to traipse down toward the bodies location. It would have been 50/50.

I don't think it requires mental images of the cemetery area to grasp the fundamental basics: Bridge Guy knows that this is going to take a while. At absolute minimum he has to be prepared for an hour. Now ask yourself how often cars are parked inside a cemetery for a full hour or more? And especially when it is a small roadside cemetery with locals potentially driving past in either direction. Parking a car there can only be attributed to a cemetery visit. There isn't excuse to visit an adjacent home or business, etc. If a car is sitting there for several hours in mid afternoon yet nobody ever sees someone sitting alongside a headstone, that is great potential to be stand out and be remembered...quickly mentioned to law enforcement.

Bridge Guy knows he can't avoid some risks. Parking at the cemetery would have been a silly risk.

Contrast to parking near the abandoned building. There are several things going on there, from the nearby State Road 25 to the Anderson buildings to Freedom Bridge area to the abandoned building itself. The presence of a vehicle can be rationalized in many ways, to the point it won't stand out.

However, the associated risks are the longer walk back to that area after the murders, and the presence of surveillance cameras on the Andersons buildings not far from the abandoned building. Bridge Guy had to weigh several aspects prior to this crime. Gray Hughes did a video in late October 2019 in which he showed the locations of two cameras on those buildings. I left on my trip a week prior to that video being posted. But I was already curious about the same thing, to the point I drove over there and looked at the specific nearby building. It was smack across from the abandoned building area but not tight to County Road 300. Maybe 50-75 yards removed.

If Bridge Guy did park in that area I think there's a good chance they have faraway video from that camera. It may be the reason that Doug Carter said they have a good idea of the beginning and the end, but not the middle.

I have always been amazed that none of the interviewers ever bother to ask Carter or Leazenby or Ives if law enforcement has video/pictures of Bridge Guy from a source other than Libby's phone. If that question has been posed, it has not been posed often enough. It should be a regular situation of make them respond again.

^^^^All of this. Bravo.

I've tried to come up with valid, rational reasons why Andersons' cameras might not have been turned on and recording that day (trying to choose my words carefully, here). First and foremost, they were "closed". I was there on a weekend the following August, and they were "closed". Meaning there was nothing scheduled, they have an erratic open/close/open/close schedule which centers around various variables:

1. Corporate scheduling.

2. Harvest times, which vary year-round.

3. Norfolk Southern drop-offs and pick-ups of grain and perhaps liquid container cars.

4. Corporate and private farm grain drop-offs.

5. Etc.

Could be they have various cameras on only at certain times. It's a huge complex, and has been there for many years.

Andersons schedules for all of their terminal facilities are on their website.

Early on, I'd thought well, yeah, maybe there is a connection to the Indiana Packers plant. I don't believe the IP plant has any connection to the case, and besides, Andersons is right across the road from where this all happened. BG had to have taken the schedule there into consideration, in fact it would have been critical to him pulling this off with little attention given to him.

Why did Supt. Carter bring up the now-razed CPS building at last year's PC? Could it be another 'not showing their hand' type of deal? I believe last year's PC was mainly about rattling BG's cage, like "hey, we know you want to know what we know, but we're gonna tease you, too, BG. We know where you parked, but we're not saying any more at this point.". I believe there is more that they know about a vehicle parked there, they're not going to show their hand, not just yet.

Right now I believe this is a cat-and-mouse game LE is playing with BG.

I believe he arrived from IN 25, and left the same way, but then which direction on 25 is anyone's guess. Taking that route would have taken him past those cameras.

It took me a while to wrap my head around him walking all the way back up the main trail, and now presumably to the building near the trail head by the Freedom Bridge. I just struggled with that, thinking why would he go through all that trouble?

Well he would have looked like a typical trail user that time of year, even after the murders, except maybe that he may have been using some type of bag of some sort on the way out of there. If I had passed him, I may have taken note of his being there, but would have thought well maybe he has a camera or something along those lines.

People go to trails to enjoy themselves and relax, mostly. They're not thinking they should have their guard up for threats lurking about.

I believe BG is comfortable in his own skin, and was perfectly comfortable in that environment by Delphi that afternoon. Which explains his walking on the main trail after the murders.

He went through an awful lot of trouble to hang out there for some time, force two victims off the end of the MHB, force them across an outdoor space, across a cold creek, and then to the CS for the murders. He's in perfectly good physical condition, and that combined with his relative comfort and mental state means he could navigate his way back out of there, and slip away without people being any the wiser. Not much more trouble than he'd already been through that afternoon.

All the while looking like a fairly youthful cast member for a Rural King commercial.

Edit:

Thanks for bringing up DC's statement about 'beginning and end', which, again, would make one wonder what, specifically, he's talking about. Perhaps it is their timeline.

JMO

 

[ogls]

I'm a stupid girl, I have to change some things I believe about BG attire and profession. Then, I'm going to sit on it.

BG should normally wear a suit and tie or other uniform -jeans for "casual day". I will believe he ditched his clothing. People who know BG wouldn't recogninze the bridge guy in the photo because "BG doesn't wear those types of clothes".

BG looks too perfect too new, he fits right in. When I have a bit of cash in travel, I dress really down, crap jeans, jacked shirt-leave me be. I'm going to apply this to BG, he doesn't wear "causal" clothes.

Everything else stands, including Kenny Rodgers.

The locations I want, esp Michigan City and include Lafayette. I also want to say a job (prof/maintence-doesn't require fingerprints on file like w/kids) with a (green plant, because IDK if I can say the name?) Community College Tech school.

BG isn't afraid to be recognized on the trail, if he was a local teacher someone would notice him, he doesn't wear those casual clothes or have facial hair, DOES WEAR GLASSES.

 

[Ozoner]

I thought about that too until lead ISP investigator, 1Sgt Holeman, was asked if the killer knew about the cell phone and the possibility of a video. He stated that in his opinion the killer was not aware of it. He wouldn't say why he thought that, however.

Psycho McMoron thought he was being stealthy. It never occurred to him that he had aroused Libby's suspicions from many yards away. If he saw her using the phone, he assumed she was taking selfies. He left the phone at the scene of the crime because he didn't want to get caught with anything that would connect him to the crime and because he knew the movements of a cell phone could be tracked.