Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #123

[Yemelyan]

Stranger abductions certainly are rare. Abducting two random juveniles at the same time is rare, it's happened maybe 15 times since 1974, according to records I've come across. Now out of those 30 juveniles abducted I don't know how many were killed.

The Delphi case is extremely rare, and the circumstances of it are unique, as in where and how it went down.

JMO

The interesting thing is that it happened twice in Iowa in about a two year period, and even THOSE were not related: Police: Klunder didn't kidnap Evansdale cousins

Could it be that the selection of two victims at once is more related to factors relative to ease of abduction in the moment and less to do with a specific fantasy involving two victims? I'd guess so.

 

[Wells]

I am still catching up here, but I see alot of discussion on whether or not the killer was 'local' and thought it would be helpful to add this info to this thread.

IMO, you don't need to be 'local' to become very familiar with a town, even if you only visit once a year.

Delphi has an annual celebration every August called the 'Old Settlers Celebration'. It takes place over several days and over the years, it has become a carnival with Vendors, rides, musical concerts and town tours. This will be the 165th year that this celebration takes place.

Some of the tours involve a community member 'driving tourists on the county’s replica of a traincar used on inter-urban rail routes that ran through Delphi many decades ago.'

Old Settlers festival marks its 157th year.

I would be shocked if the trail system and the Monon High Bridge wasn't mentioned during one of these tours and I would love to have been on one of these tours prior to February 2017 to see what info was given.

From personal experience, my husband and I take our children to an annual event like the Delphi one that takes place many, many miles from our home in a town that we are extremely familiar with but only visit once a year.

We would never be considered 'locals' at that event. Some of the Vendors that work at the event are not local as well, but they go every single year to work at the event.

Just some food for thought.

JMO

Any idea if there are recent videos of that festival that exist?

 

[Wells]

The possible connection was mentioned as coincidental very early on but I’ve noticed no further mention since then.

Evansdale, Indiana double-homicide links 'coincidental,' Indiana State Police say
“Indiana State Police say similarities between the double-slaying of two teenage girls three weeks ago and the unsolved 2012 murder of two Evansdale, Iowa, girls are "coincidental" at this point, but investigators are "not closed" to the idea of a connection...

......Sgt. John Perrine, a spokesman for Indiana State Police, said the similarities amount to the fact that in both cases two young girls were killed in a rural area, on a trail, on what happened to be the 13th day of the month.

"We don’t have any evidence that leads us to believe these two cases are connected," Perrine said. "A lot of people would hope we can solve both of them."...”

It's not just on the 13th. The dates the crimes were committed were completely switched as we have discussed before. 71312 and 21317. I hope admin let's this stand. I am NOT talking about numerology. I am talking about a date that might be significant to an individual.

 

[Wells]

Has anyone checked the Delpi PD social media page posts to see if there are an unusual number of likes or comments from one individual? If he is taunting LE that might be one way.

 

[Charlot123]

RSBM

Hi @Charlot123- based on statements made at the 2019 PC (please see below), do you believe LE has gone back to the original information released? I'll admit, the back-and-forth information is certainly confusing at times. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this- I truly enjoy reading your posts, and have learned a great deal from you!

[...] "We’re releasing additional portions of the audio recording from that day. Please keep in mind the person talking is one person and is the person on the bridge with the girls. This is NOT two different people speaking- please listen to it very, very carefully". [...]

"The video shows the suspect walking on the bridge". [...]

[...] "The result of the new information and intelligence over time leads us to believe the sketch, which you will see shortly, IS the person responsible for the murders of these two little girls". [...]

DELPHI PRESS CONFERENCE TRANSCRIPT (2019) - CrimeLights

I remember even “who did it?” from DC (I interpreted it as “which one?”

I think the information from the witnesses, and maybe from the crime scene, indicated certain involvement of two people, and the PC just sent the message that they went with “the younger BG” theory. Or at least it looks so. But maybe there were 5 “younger-older BG” couples still considered at that time.

My real impression from that PC. Before, everything went its way. The case was still new, the police was somehow progressing, or at least slowly digging something out, one show hinted at maybe sending the DNA to Parabon. Everything went its way.

And then, shortly before the PC, something must have happened, and it was shell-shocking to the LE. I can’t even guess what it was. Maybe some DNA that they did not expect, or a tip, or something else. It is not that they ruled some old pervs out, it was someone that they had to rule in.

I think what they meant was, big cross on OBG, we are starting anew.

And I don’t think it was about the name of the perp. It could have even been, “the signature in Delphi murders matches signature in case X”. Who knows?

I think LE shared this general information with the families, as their faces looked equally stunned. And the odd speech of DC could also be explained by his shock.

It's not just on the 13th. The dates the crimes were committed were completely switched as we have discussed before. 71312 and 21317. I hope admin let's this stand. I am NOT talking about numerology. I am talking about a date that might be significant to an individual.

Clearly rules out a European, or anyone, except for possibly Canadian. (“According to wikipedia, the only countries that use the MM/DD/YYYY system are the US, the Philippines, Palau, Canada, and Micronesia.”).

Or, the person might be obsessed with prime numbers.

ETA: yes, even 2 is an even prime number. It could be that simple. And then, Liberty, Liber Abacus...who knows how crazy geniuses think, and why do they do stuff?

 

[Falling Down]

In recent times some folks have asked about RL's dog. This image is from an interview he did with RTV6 in the days after the murders, a cameraman is down the hill, RL's dog is on a trail which leads to the area LE taped off. The reporter took this image and uploaded it to Twitter.

<modsnip: Image removed due to no link. ALL images require a link to the source>

 

[ScumbagTrav]

RSBM

Hi @Charlot123- based on statements made at the 2019 PC (please see below), do you believe LE has gone back to the original information released? I'll admit, the back-and-forth information is certainly confusing at times. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this- I truly enjoy reading your posts, and have learned a great deal from you!

[...] "We’re releasing additional portions of the audio recording from that day. Please keep in mind the person talking is one person and is the person on the bridge with the girls. This is NOT two different people speaking- please listen to it very, very carefully". [...]

"The video shows the suspect walking on the bridge". [...]

[...] "The result of the new information and intelligence over time leads us to believe the sketch, which you will see shortly, IS the person responsible for the murders of these two little girls". [...]

DELPHI PRESS CONFERENCE TRANSCRIPT (2019) - CrimeLights

I know you weren't asking me, just wanted to comment. Based on the quotes you pulled, I have thought since April 2019 that they were sure it was one person.

But it's also the PC that DC gave the wrong date, botched the abandoned vehicle line (LE has to issue a Press Release to correct what DC messed up), got overly emotional... even saying to (presumably to the German's) that we he takes his last breath on earth he will be thinking about them...um...what? I bet DC's family feels special.

Anyhow, I always clung to the quote you did. But read a little further....another officer steps up and says:

"I just unveiled a person that we believe is responsible for the murder of these two little girls."

A person. Not THE person. And this isn't the guy who botched other aspects of the PC that day.

Thoughts?

 

[bradfordsleuth]

Any idea if there are recent videos of that festival that exist?

I did not come across more than a couple of clips in my search.

I think the most recent one that has a msm interview is the 42 second clip I posted from August 2016.

I am sure all of us who watched that clip looked for a person wearing that familiar outfit in the crowd, out of habit.


JMO

 

[JnRyan]

As extensive as this investigation appears to be I wonder if LE pulled surveillance video from nearby Delphi businesses if this guy stopped for gas or get something to eat. Of course, if this guy went there with murder in mind the trail was likely his only stop in the area. I never heard any mention of this in the media. Also, the feeling - or at least the feeling I got after the photo/audio was released - may have been that this case is going to be solved fairly quick with what LE found at the scene. If LE waited too long some outdated surveillance systems may not have the video from that day.

 

[Maplesyrup]

The interesting thing is that it happened twice in Iowa in about a two year period, and even THOSE were not related: Police: Klunder didn't kidnap Evansdale cousins

Could it be that the selection of two victims at once is more related to factors relative to ease of abduction in the moment and less to do with a specific fantasy involving two victims? I'd guess so.

Or it could be to do with the killer wanting one victim to watch what he does to the other victim to see their response. These are nasty creatures who commit these crimes. Their brains are wired differently than ours which is why we can't imagine what drives their murderous intent.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Could it be so that there, indeed, were two, and while one was hiking, visiting a friend, praying, whatever he did, the younger one committed the crimes, and left something belonging to the older one? Some items, some “signatures”, all pointing at the other one? In a hurry to incriminate, out of pure hatred?

Maybe, something like that. But I don't think, out of hate for the older one there were some different signs, but to create a sly TWIST, which caused the investigators to become confused and lose their track. They recognized the TWIST, then they were stuck. MOO

 

[Deleted member 102539]

This is a great question.

I often wonder what BG was 'counting on' regarding the aftermath.

I believe he paid close attention to the search efforts, either via the media out of Indianapolis and/or using scanners that scan LE and first responder channels. I believe he's close enough to Delphi and Deer Creek Twp. that he was able to keep tabs on the search efforts, or lives somewhere close enough to have Indy media outlets on his TV.

There was an Amber Alert that night out of Gary, so that took away some from the attention the search got from Indy channels. But I do know at least two channels out of Indy covered it that night on the 11PM news, and one covered it on their 10PM broadcast, in fact that was the clip which showed a reporter being shown the two SnapChat images Libby had uploaded, by a searcher who had them on his phone.

I think BG was watching all of this.

JMO

bbm
... and watching SM and registering, how fast it unfolded. MOO

 

[Deleted member 102539]

ISP Carter did specify at the April 2019 PC...

"Please keep in mind the person talking is one person and is the person on the bridge with the girls. This is NOT two different people speaking- please listen to it very, very carefully."

.... what doesn't mean, there isn't possibly a second perp, which is "hiding" and not seen in Libby's video and not heard of in Libby's audio.

 

[Ozoner]

.... what doesn't mean, there isn't possibly a second perp, which is "hiding" and not seen in Libby's video and not heard of in Libby's audio.

Very illogical. The most difficult part of this crime would have been gaining control of the girls; one perp would not have tried to do it alone if he had a helper nearby. That would have been the time to use the helper.

 

[Justice101]

still following....

 

[MistyWaters]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

... LE hasn’t ruled out more than one suspect may be involved - however even if there were two suspects, as illustrated by the two very different sketches, both men cannot be the one man featured in the released photo/video on the bridge, who spoke the words “guys....down the hill” and who is the suspect LE hope to be identified by somebody “who knows this person”.

Rather than both sketches being tied into one theory, it’s equally possible one or both witnesses saw somebody but later recalled the facial features incorrectly, or was mistaken about the time or date of the sighting, or they observed an entirely innocent man who was near the trails that day who chose not to step forward for reasons anywhere from undesirable involvement with LE to wrongful blame for the murders.

I think it’s the right thing for Leazenby to distance the significance of the sketches to a POI. Sketches are not photographs.

 

[JDough]

I thought the information below might be helpful for those who may not be familiar distinguishing the difference between a Signature and Modus Operandi (MO):

RSBM- more at link

Sometimes it’s confusing for people to differentiate between a criminal’s signature versus the criminal’s modus operandi (MO) when they commit a specific crime. Are they the same? No, they are distinctly different because one feeds on emotional needs, while the other is a procedure. Modus operandi is the method that is used to commit the crime and signature behavior is what helps to serve the criminal’s emotional and psychological needs.

Here are a few examples of a criminal’s MO:

• The type of restraints used on the victim, wound patterns, and type of fiber of the restraints.
• Type of weapon used, such as knife, blunt object, or gun.
• Tape found on victim that was used to bind hands and cover mouth.
• Tools used to gain entry to victim’s home.
• Attack could be from when the victim exits their vehicle or walks through a dark parking garage.
• Time of day that the offender chooses to commit the crime, such as nighttime or early morning.
• Lack of fingerprints that would indicate the offender used gloves.

Here are a few examples of criminal signatures:

• Level of injury to the victim, minimal or excessive.
• Specific location or sequence to the criminal act.
• Ejaculation, urination, and/or defecation at the crime scene.
• Specific type of weapon used.
• Personal items taken from victim.
• Specific type of victim targeted that refers to age, race, occupation, or other physical characteristics.
• Anything specifically left at the crime scene, such as a note or object.

An easy way to remember the difference is that a criminal’s MO refers to the way the crime is committed and the signature is what is beyond that it takes to commit the specific crime.

Offender’s Signature vs. Modus Operandi

 

[somequestions]

True, LE hasn’t ruled out more than one suspect may be involved - however even if there were two suspects, as illustrated by the two very different sketches, both men cannot be the one man featured in the released photo/video on the bridge, who spoke the words “guys....down the hill” and who is the suspect LE hope to be identified by somebody “who knows this person”.

Rather than both sketches being tied into one theory, it’s equally possible one or both witnesses saw somebody but later recalled the facial features incorrectly, or was mistaken about the time or date of the sighting, or they observed an entirely innocent man who was near the trails that day who chose not to step forward for reasons anywhere from undesirable involvement with LE to wrongful blame for the murders.

I think it’s the right thing for Leazenby to distance the significance of the sketches to a POI. Sketches are not photographs.

Or the sketches are two different people seen by two different witnesses at two different places in the Monon High Bridge Trail area on February 13, 2017. In my opinion, the sketches are simply people LE was not able to clear on February 13, 2017. LE wants to find them to rule them out. I know a lot of people probably disagree.

I think there is so much emphasis on what police say and put out to the public that the irony in this case is it could be helping the killer escape detection. Then the only way to solve the case is to hope that someone comes along that disregards both sketches and looks solely at Liberty German's video when providing a tip. I would never have submitted a tip in this case if it had been based solely on the LE press conferences and sketches.

Let's assume LE arrests a suspect in this case. Let's also assume hypothetically that the killer is from Montana and is in their mid 50's. This person's connection to Delphi, Indiana might be for traveling for work or visiting a relative. If this case gets solved and the solution is something like what I wrote, I think many people will still be in denial. In my opinion, they will not want to believe that this is the person who killed Abigail Williams and Liberty German.

 

[yelodoggie]

Does anyone know if there was any DNA collected at the scene? Or if John Dale Miller (The killer of April Tinsley) was ever on the radar for the delphi murders?

 

[BNA]

Very illogical. The most difficult part of this crime would have been gaining control of the girls; one perp would not have tried to do it alone if he had a helper nearby. That would have been the time to use the helper.

Consider that he may have punched or slapped one or both of them as his first acts of this crime. That might cause compliance with his instructions.