Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #124

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Many good points there. Recently on Reddit a poster criticized me while emphasizing, "Everybody knows it's a target-rich area."

I didn't respond but I was laughing while reading it. Somehow people envision Monon High as a park with female joggers and dog walkers and waving to friends amidst dependable traffic especially of certain demographics. Meanwhile it's a trail on the outskirts of a very small town. The single most likely occupancy is zero. That doesn't soar to certainty of plentiful targets on a snow day. That is a bizarre adjustment, after the fact. Adjustments are ridiculously popular. When I lived in Las Vegas all I had to do was calmly wager toward normalcy while everyone else was projecting to the subjective extreme in either direction. It is amazing how well that works.

DeAngelo could pick two targets because he had logically high confidence level that is what a suburban home would hold, especially in that era of earlier marriages, and after doing reconnaissance. Bridge Guy can't do reconnaissance, other than the layout. Otherwise the population of a trail is extraordinarily random. He would have to expose himself to fish smell guest status if he showed up day after day at the same trail looking for exactly his preference and exactly how many.

Frankly the analysis of this case would make a heck of a lot more sense to me if we didn't know anything about Abby and Libby's morning. We could pretend they absolutely knew they would be at the bridge that afternoon. We could pretend certainly they had arranged for a secret meeting. Snapchat on the bridge will be a blast. Instead we have multiple and consistent reports from Kelsi and Becky toward how mundane and random it was. Kelsi said yes and not no.

It was random for Bridge Guy also. It doesn't even make a heck of a lot of sense to park your car there, if he did park near the abandoned building. There's a camera on the Anderson building smack across County Road 300. That's probably how law enforcement became aware of the car in the first place.

Bridge Guy didn't get scared of that faraway camera because he expected it to be just another example of visiting a trail while well prepared, but nothing going to click.

Some have thought that bridge guy's big mid-section indicates that he brought a kill kit with him. The idea that he would come with a kill kit indirectly means that he was preparing to harm someone out on the Monon High Bridge trail. It is obvious the bridge guy seemed to have some type of weapon to commit murder, but that does not mean he had it to kill people. Maybe he was preparing to kill two kids that day and maybe he wasn't. And even though the Monon High Bridge trail looks to only be known by locals, maybe bridge guy was local or maybe he was from some state far away from Delphi, Indiana.

I think it is human nature to want answers. People do not want to think that they or their kids could randomly go to a trail like that and be part of such a terrible crime. So they need to find a reason. Or they want to believe that if it had not been Abby and Libby that it would have been someone else's kids that would have been harmed. In my opinion, there is no truth to any of that. They are a victim of circumstance, like flipping a coin, and that is all there is to it. But do not tell that to a lot of people. I know this because I have gotten into arguments about it. Other people have a different viewpoint.

There are killers that do plan who have brought kill kits. Israel Keyes left kill kits around the country to commit his crimes. The point is that it is best to look at any case individually. I am using that case as just one example.

This case is not that case. People need to remember that.
 
<modsnip: quoted post was removed>

Many good points there. Recently on Reddit a poster criticized me while emphasizing, "Everybody knows it's a target-rich area."

I didn't respond but I was laughing while reading it. Somehow people envision Monon High as a park with female joggers and dog walkers and waving to friends amidst dependable traffic especially of certain demographics. Meanwhile it's a trail on the outskirts of a very small town. The single most likely occupancy is zero. That doesn't soar to certainty of plentiful targets on a snow day. That is a bizarre adjustment, after the fact. Adjustments are ridiculously popular. When I lived in Las Vegas all I had to do was calmly wager toward normalcy while everyone else was projecting to the subjective extreme in either direction. It is amazing how well that works.

DeAngelo could pick two targets because he had logically high confidence level that is what a suburban home would hold, especially in that era of earlier marriages, and after doing reconnaissance. Bridge Guy can't do reconnaissance, other than the layout. Otherwise the population of a trail is extraordinarily random. He would have to expose himself to fish smell guest status if he showed up day after day at the same trail looking for exactly his preference and exactly how many.

Frankly the analysis of this case would make a heck of a lot more sense to me if we didn't know anything about Abby and Libby's morning. We could pretend they absolutely knew they would be at the bridge that afternoon. We could pretend certainly they had arranged for a secret meeting. Snapchat on the bridge will be a blast. Instead we have multiple and consistent reports from Kelsi and Becky toward how mundane and random it was. Kelsi said yes and not no.

It was random for Bridge Guy also. It doesn't even make a heck of a lot of sense to park your car there, if he did park near the abandoned building. There's a camera on the Anderson building smack across County Road 300. That's probably how law enforcement became aware of the car in the first place.

Bridge Guy didn't get scared of that faraway camera because he expected it to be just another example of visiting a trail while well prepared, but nothing going to click.

A lot of us can relate to these girls, at that age.

I would have done the same thing on such a relatively mild Winter day, and in fact did the same thing or something similar while in HS, and wish I'd known about it by the 7th or 8th grade. We had a public park to have fun in which was a huge railroad property many years ago, but was abandoned around 1974 and later turned into a city park.

I never once felt afraid or threatened there, and often times me and my buddies encountered no one else in the woods, or at least no 'parent-aged' adults.

Back then I didn't know that one of our own local serial killers had killed there, and left the body to rot under a scrap sheet of drywall or plywood. I didn't know until more recent years that's where he'd killed and left a victim.

He regularly fished right there, he obviously felt comfortable along the gorge where he had many fishing spots. He left his victims at his fishing spots or close to them.

Killers have interests and hobbies just like the rest of us, seemingly normal lives, most of them.

For BG to be there on that day, hanging out, waiting for a victim or victims to come along, just doesn't strike me as anything involving some grand conspiracy. Premeditation and planning, yes. Luring? No.

That and this whole notion that this is some large and well-known public park with lots of visitors is pure fantasy. It's a relatively small area we're working with, virtually all of it on private properties.

I keep going back to the earliest interviews with locals, much of it linked here in the first few or 4 or 5 threads about this case, people right in town knew a bridge was out there, somewhere, but had never been to it, and couldn't tell you how to get to it. The bridge is maybe 1.5 miles from where they were standing.

JMO
 
I think any of us who have followed a case that struck us to the core, have felt just like you have. However, keep in mind that there's finding out who committed a murder, and then there's proving it in a court of law, and any of the verified attorneys here will tell you those can be two very different things.

I'm not one of those who believes LE know who did it and are waiting to act, but I do think they are being very careful and deliberate with their actions and from the beginning have had the endgame - successful prosecution - in mind. So I'm okay with waiting even another year if it means this offender eventually gets what he deserves with no chance to wiggle free.

I'm in the "less would have been more", camp. Too much erroneous info early on, they should have release the video and sketch #2 (which really is an early sketch, may be the earliest), like a week or so after the murders. Month, tops.

Instead, we got Sketch #1, and people going crazy here and in other forums, social media, etc., and trying to associate random comments LE made with all kinds of crazy stuff.

I agree with your post. Let LE do their jobs, I mean the case has been difficult enough for them, good grief I can't imagine all the inane crud and weird tips they've gotten in the last 3+ years. It makes an arrest that much more remote. It will happen, I just hate to see what I think are hurdles being thrown up in front of them by people, obstacles best left out so they don't have a mess to muddle through.

JMO
 
A lot of us can relate to these girls, at that age.

I would have done the same thing on such a relatively mild Winter day, and in fact did the same thing or something similar while in HS, and wish I'd known about it by the 7th or 8th grade. We had a public park to have fun in which was a huge railroad property many years ago, but was abandoned around 1974 and later turned into a city park.

I never once felt afraid or threatened there, and often times me and my buddies encountered no one else in the woods, or at least no 'parent-aged' adults.

Back then I didn't know that one of our own local serial killers had killed there, and left the body to rot under a scrap sheet of drywall or plywood. I didn't know until more recent years that's where he'd killed and left a victim.

He regularly fished right there, he obviously felt comfortable along the gorge where he had many fishing spots. He left his victims at his fishing spots or close to them.

Killers have interests and hobbies just like the rest of us, seemingly normal lives, most of them.

For BG to be there on that day, hanging out, waiting for a victim or victims to come along, just doesn't strike me as anything involving some grand conspiracy. Premeditation and planning, yes. Luring? No.

That and this whole notion that this is some large and well-known public park with lots of visitors is pure fantasy. It's a relatively small area we're working with, virtually all of it on private properties.

I keep going back to the earliest interviews with locals, much of it linked here in the first few or 4 or 5 threads about this case, people right in town knew a bridge was out there, somewhere, but had never been to it, and couldn't tell you how to get to it. The bridge is maybe 1.5 miles from where they were standing.

JMO
Well said, when I was in 7th, 8th grade or high school, I had an area where I went over the levee and traveled through some trails along the river. At the time it was an adventure. I see crimes like this now and wonder, "What was I thinking!?!?!?"
 
Some have thought that bridge guy's big mid-section indicates that he brought a kill kit with him. The idea that he would come with a kill kit indirectly means that he was preparing to harm someone out on the Monon High Bridge trail. It is obvious the bridge guy seemed to have some type of weapon to commit murder, but that does not mean he had it to kill people. Maybe he was preparing to kill two kids that day and maybe he wasn't. And even though the Monon High Bridge trail looks to only be known by locals, maybe bridge guy was local or maybe he was from some state far away from Delphi, Indiana.

I think it is human nature to want answers. People do not want to think that they or their kids could randomly go to a trail like that and be part of such a terrible crime. So they need to find a reason. Or they want to believe that if it had not been Abby and Libby that it would have been someone else's kids that would have been harmed. In my opinion, there is no truth to any of that. They are a victim of circumstance, like flipping a coin, and that is all there is to it. But do not tell that to a lot of people. I know this because I have gotten into arguments about it. Other people have a different viewpoint.

There are killers that do plan who have brought kill kits. Israel Keyes left kill kits around the country to commit his crimes. The point is that it is best to look at any case individually. I am using that case as just one example.

This case is not that case. People need to remember that.

People want to believe there's some huge, grand conspiracy at work, here. There isn't.

Far as Keyes is concerned, his killing career is a perfect example of a killer with relatively random victims. Like BG, he had his killing spots already picked out. Earlier in his killing career, he killed in large public parks, finding victims in out-of-the-way spots.

Big difference between that, where Keyes even admitted during questioning that he killed people earlier on that he figured would not be found, and there wouldn't be any big news or fuss made about them missing. They were missing, and never found.

BG wanted the victims in this case to be found, but long after he vanished from the immediate area. Hours later, in this case almost a full day after he first stalked the girls. He gets off on that thrill, the public's and the families' horror of realizing that two girls who had gone missing and were believed to not be in danger, were found murdered on someone's land not much more than 600 feet/200 meters from the bridge where they'd gone missing.

Keyes didn't want his earlier victims to be found or even reported about in the news. BG gets off on his victims being in the news, on Websleuths, on Reddit, on SM, etc. The horror is not only what he did, but the aftermath. That and BG killed juveniles. The public is infatuated with the crimes, almost 3.5 years later. BG loves that.

I believe there's way more to that or those aspects to his crimes, than conjuring up some big story on what may have happened that day.

JMO
 
Still waiting for some movement - or rather public movement - on the case. No PC at the 3 year mark. Bits and pieces here and there, but not much from LE. That's not to imply LE is not doing anything because I believe they are giving it their best effort. Of course, a POI or a suspect would be nice. I'm concerned that at some point the budget folks in the state capital are going to turn to the superintendent and say 'what have you done lately?' Money talks. And then they turn it all over to the sheriff with an ISP person to be updated every now and then. We've seen this in the Heidi Childs/David Metzler murders here in VA where we have a task force. On paper, but not full time.
 
People want to believe there's some huge, grand conspiracy at work, here. There isn't.

Far as Keyes is concerned, his killing career is a perfect example of a killer with relatively random victims. Like BG, he had his killing spots already picked out. Earlier in his killing career, he killed in large public parks, finding victims in out-of-the-way spots.

Big difference between that, where Keyes even admitted during questioning that he killed people earlier on that he figured would not be found, and there wouldn't be any big news or fuss made about them missing. They were missing, and never found.

BG wanted the victims in this case to be found, but long after he vanished from the immediate area. Hours later, in this case almost a full day after he first stalked the girls. He gets off on that thrill, the public's and the families' horror of realizing that two girls who had gone missing and were believed to not be in danger, were found murdered on someone's land not much more than 600 feet/200 meters from the bridge where they'd gone missing.

Keyes didn't want his earlier victims to be found or even reported about in the news. BG gets off on his victims being in the news, on Websleuths, on Reddit, on SM, etc. The horror is not only what he did, but the aftermath. That and BG killed juveniles. The public is infatuated with the crimes, almost 3.5 years later. BG loves that.

I believe there's way more to that or those aspects to his crimes, than conjuring up some big story on what may have happened that day.

JMO

I do not know what the bridge guy thinks about his crimes. I have not really thought about what he may or may not think about his crimes. In my opinion, he is another criminal.

I do think about the victims sometimes. Since I think it would be hard to kill two people simultaneously, I wonder if one girl saw the other one being murdered?

I also wonder about Liberty German's phone. If I remember correctly I thought there was a cell phone tower nearby. The reason I think about this is that once they did figure out what was about to happen to them, it was kind of surprising Liberty German did not try to call 911?

So I wondered about the answers to those questions even though I know they are not really important to solving the case.
 
If the audio reveals a ruse like this (which I think is possible) then this will be so critical for LE to hold back. They will be able to use this info during interrogation to a great advantage, I would think. Can you imagine BG being asked suddenly in an interview, "now if we get a warrant for your house or car, are we going to find a badge or handcuffs, anything like that?" Imagine being LE and being able to see his unsuspecting reaction, since the information was kept completely out of the public?
Maybe, BG is prepared very well not only for his crimes, but also for questions, LE might have some day in the future (or have had already in February/March 2017). Consuming most of the SM probably and equipped with extraordinary good memory, he might have a list in his mind (or on paper) with all the cliffs, that he will have to circumnavigate. He wouldn't stumble over ridiculous (in his mind!) questions re "badge", "handcuffs" or something other. All MOO of course.
I would like to know, if BG is a sk, how often he got interviewed by police in the past and got away ......
 
We are all kinda staggering through a huge desert of no information right now. The first three years about every six months something or someone would pop up to light up the board, but it’s been a long time since anything new really happened. A very large desert. I’ve noticed my posts after three years have become a bit cynical and critical and I apologize for that. I’ll work on it.
I do think that when LE does finally make an arrest we will be less shocked at who it is and more shocked at how mundane it occurred. We’ve all spun up some pretty complex scenarios but I have a feeling it will end up as just some guy who saw an opportunity, took a chance, killed two young girls, and almost got a way with it.
 
We are all kinda staggering through a huge desert of no information right now. The first three years about every six months something or someone would pop up to light up the board, but it’s been a long time since anything new really happened. A very large desert. I’ve noticed my posts after three years have become a bit cynical and critical and I apologize for that. I’ll work on it.
I do think that when LE does finally make an arrest we will be less shocked at who it is and more shocked at how mundane it occurred. We’ve all spun up some pretty complex scenarios but I have a feeling it will end up as just some guy who saw an opportunity, took a chance, killed two young girls, and almost got a way with it.
When you start to hear less and less of substance from LE it is tough NOT become cynical. I find myself moving that way. This guy is out there somewhere and LE just hasn't moved in his direction. Yet.
 
Agreed. If they knew him they would have said, “Oh, no, there’s creepy X from X, etc.”.

When I first heard the audio of “down the hill” I assumed he’d pulled a gun on them and was acting like a criminal, and they had obeyed out of sheer terror.

With the addition of “Guys” and with speculation that he may NOT have been commanding them, and had initially tried to appear NON-criminal, it seems possible he may have presented a fake badge and said, “Guys, no one is allowed on this bridge; it’s unsafe and you’ve got to leave immediately, here follow me down the hill.” or similar.....I just wish he’d be arrested and all the information would be released.
Whoops, just saw that StarryStarrynight said almost identical in her post.:eek: Didn’t mean to copy - had not even read it - YIKES!
bbm red

I would like to know, why LE thought, this single word "guys" was sooo very important to have been added to "dth". In BG's "hiding-in-plain-sight-life", does he use this term often, permanently? (Unfortunately, there are people, who do also.) Is it the manner, BG does speak the term, the "s" at the end, the possibly accent? Both of these reasons? - Oh, being a fly on the wall .....
 
Maybe, BG is prepared very well not only for his crimes, but also for questions, LE might have some day in the future (or have had already in February/March 2017). Consuming most of the SM probably and equipped with extraordinary good memory, he might have a list in his mind (or on paper) with all the cliffs, that he will have to circumnavigate. He wouldn't stumble over ridiculous (in his mind!) questions re "badge", "handcuffs" or something other. All MOO of course.
I would like to know, if BG is a sk, how often he got interviewed by police in the past and got away ......

Maybe.

I think having glib and prepared answers would tell investigators experienced in interrogation something too, if that was the case.

I don't think he's an intellectual giant, though. IMO
 
This is why I lose SO much sleep. My mind just won’t shut off in trying to help. I want so badly to see these girl’s families get the answers to what happened on that day.

Yes, the same happens to me. Some days I think they were targeted, and at other times, I feel the murders were random.

bbm red

I would like to know, why LE thought, this single word "guys" was sooo very important to have been added to "dth". In BG's "hiding-in-plain-sight-life", does he use this term often, permanently? (Unfortunately, there are people, who do also.) Is it the manner, BG does speak the term, the "s" at the end, the possibly accent? Both of these reasons? - Oh, being a fly on the wall .....

Interesting thinking. I have often heard, “you guys”, from the 30-20es group. It doesn’t sound very educated, nor very polite, to me, except when used in that age group. I think with younger kids, it is not that popular, and with older people, there is a hint of familiarity in “guys”, or “you guys”. So...millennials? Maybe early Gen Z?

About the accent. I tend to soften the consonants; Eastern Europeans do it. (Also, bilingual kids whose parents spoke exclusively mother tongue to them may have unusual pronunciation. Not an accent, and not everyone hears it).

Another reason to soften some consonants would be incorrect bite.
 
Well said, when I was in 7th, 8th grade or high school, I had an area where I went over the levee and traveled through some trails along the river. At the time it was an adventure. I see crimes like this now and wonder, "What was I thinking!?!?!?"

Only a few years ago, I would walk my dog along deserted river beds, through bush land, quiet beaches.
However, after recent cases, I walk around the block, avoiding people.
 
Yes, the same happens to me. Some days I think they were targeted, and at other times, I feel the murders were random.



Interesting thinking. I have often heard, “you guys”, from the 30-20es group. It doesn’t sound very educated, nor very polite, to me, except when used in that age group. I think with younger kids, it is not that popular, and with older people, there is a hint of familiarity in “guys”, or “you guys”. So...millennials? Maybe early Gen Z?

About the accent. I tend to soften the consonants; Eastern Europeans do it. (Also, bilingual kids whose parents spoke exclusively mother tongue to them may have unusual pronunciation. Not an accent, and not everyone hears it).

Another reason to soften some consonants would be incorrect bite.
Saying "guys" to address both male and females was already common by the early 80s (and probably earlier). I'm in my 40s; I never heard it from people of my grandparents generation, but I routinely hear it from people my age. It's used constantly by people in their thirties.

As for the z sound at the end of "guys," I'm not sure I can hear the s sound that people are talking about, but a gap in one's front teeth could make a person whistle his z's.
 
Still waiting for some movement - or rather public movement - on the case. No PC at the 3 year mark. Bits and pieces here and there, but not much from LE. That's not to imply LE is not doing anything because I believe they are giving it their best effort. Of course, a POI or a suspect would be nice. I'm concerned that at some point the budget folks in the state capital are going to turn to the superintendent and say 'what have you done lately?' Money talks. And then they turn it all over to the sheriff with an ISP person to be updated every now and then. We've seen this in the Heidi Childs/David Metzler murders here in VA where we have a task force. On paper, but not full time.
Well, there is going to be a new Indiana Attorney General. Maybe that will generate some movement.
 
bbm red

I would like to know, why LE thought, this single word "guys" was sooo very important to have been added to "dth". In BG's "hiding-in-plain-sight-life", does he use this term often, permanently? (Unfortunately, there are people, who do also.) Is it the manner, BG does speak the term, the "s" at the end, the possibly accent? Both of these reasons? - Oh, being a fly on the wall .....
I hadn't really thought about that, but it's a good point; why would that small addition be seen as important enough to include? I know that back in the 70's it was much more common in the upper Midwest than in the South to call females "guys", but it seems to be much more widespread these days. I didn't notice anything unusual about the way he pronounced it, but that may just be because it's common where I've spent my time (mainly Wisconsin and Minnesota). Now I may have to go back and listen to it a few more times to see if I can come up with a good reason for choosing that to add. Thanks. (and MOO)
 
I've been following along for quite some time. I can latch on to the idea that BG had no prior connection to these girls, no specific reason to kill, no motive other than pure evil, no trap set, no luring, that he's just another killer, saw the opportunity, took advantage of it.

For me, I'm fairly certain BG had pretty good knowledge of that trail, the bridge, and the surrounding wooded area, including the creek, the final area of the crime scene, and his escape route. There almost surely was planning on his part.

Two? If BG was seeking a victim, if he had been there before seeking a random victim, was it the thrill of the challenge in murdering two? Was the risk part of his fantasy? Would an adult murder NOT been part of his plan?

Did he act alone?

Is there an definitive proof, has LE ever actually stated he, and the girls, crossed the creek that day?

BUT..... I also have this part of me that says this murderer had some kind of prior contact with at least one of the girls. Some motive, other than pure serial killer murderous intent. If indeed he has such familiarity with the trail, the bridge, the town, might he not have familiarity with some of the residents too?

The problem with this 'prior contact' theory for me is this. HOW would he have known THESE two girls would be at the bridge that day? Might an accomplice close to the girls have tipped him off? Might he have had some foreknowledge?

Or truly, was it just a murderer, a serial killer, lying in wait, in a familiar spot, for the right opportunity?
 
bbm red

I would like to know, why LE thought, this single word "guys" was sooo very important to have been added to "dth". In BG's "hiding-in-plain-sight-life", does he use this term often, permanently? (Unfortunately, there are people, who do also.) Is it the manner, BG does speak the term, the "s" at the end, the possibly accent? Both of these reasons? - Oh, being a fly on the wall .....
And what made them release that bit later, rather than at the beginning?
 
Is there an definitive proof, has LE ever actually stated he, and the girls, crossed the creek that day?

BUT..... I also have this part of me that says this murderer had some kind of prior contact with at least one of the girls. Some motive, other than pure serial killer murderous intent. If indeed he has such familiarity with the trail, the bridge, the town, might he not have familiarity with some of the residents too?

The problem with this 'prior contact' theory for me is this. HOW would he have known THESE two girls would be at the bridge that day? Might an accomplice close to the girls have tipped him off? Might he have had some foreknowledge?

Or truly, was it just a murderer, a serial killer, lying in wait, in a familiar spot, for the right opportunity?

I snipped your post down to the two questions/points I have info about.

I feel like there was at least one interview with LE where the creek crossing was talked about like it was fact. I'm going to try to find where I saw it to see if that's true.

One of the problems with the prior contact theories, especially those that involve BG "arranging" a meetup with the girls at the trails, is that these were 13 and 14 year olds with NO driver's licenses and no autonomy to ensure that they could get there on any specific day or time without significant help from the adults in their lives.

People who think that there are too many pieces to fall into place to suggest that this was an opportunistic murder, overlook that there are just as many random moving parts that would have to fall into place perfectly to get the girls to the trails to meet someone on schedule. (That Becky agrees they can go, Kelsi agrees to drive them, etc). IMO
 
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