Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #124

[layer]

Police also won't say if they know how the girls were killed in the Evansdale murders, or if they have DNA.

The Evansdale girls were found so long after they went missing that I doubt there is much, if any, forensic evidence; possibly not even a solid cause of death. I think a case can be made that withholding info from the public is demonstrably ineffective considering that no one has ever been charged. Then again, a relatively large amount is known about the murder of JonBenet and it never helped.

I guess I'm just tired of waiting for justice for these girls.

 

[Yemelyan]

The Evansdale girls were found so long after they went missing that I doubt there is much, if any, forensic evidence; possibly not even a solid cause of death. I think a case can be made that withholding info from the public is demonstrably ineffective considering that no one has ever been charged. Then again, a relatively large amount is known about the murder of JonBenet and it never helped.

I guess I'm just tired of waiting for justice for these girls.

I mentioned Evansdale as it's frequently discussed here in comparison with the Delphi murders, not because it's the only other case where police withheld info.

If you Google "police withheld cause of death" you will see literally dozens of news articles about cases, many relatively unknown, where police employed this strategy. Just do a little digging and you'll see that many of them are now solved. I think that because we often hear details after crimes are adjudicated, we forget that information was initially withheld pending the active investigation. It's a common investigative strategy and to me, as in the Hannah Graham case, it doesn't seem linked to how much forensic evidence police have.

I want it solved too but there's a reason we have the saying about the wheels of justice turning slowly. Unfortunately.

 

[sunshineray]

Does anyone seriously think that BG may have a very high standing in the community? I don't mean like just a well known businessman and such, I mean like a very well know and powerfully connected man.

Someone who knows the law, knows county and state management, is truly very much ingrained in the Delphi and surrounding communities by birth and actions.

Someone, to borrow Sheriff Leazenby's words, that it will shock the community when their identity is revealed.

Someone, to borrow ISP Carter's sentiments, who's family will be appalled by their actions because their life and work and committing child murders are polar opposites.

I'm really interested to know if whether posters here think it's possible or probably not likely that BG is an extraordinary presence in this area of Indiana? TIA

I'm grappling with it and can't decide but it seems with the photographic and audio evidence not making a difference, it could mean there's a powerful and intimidating person involved.

I'll tell you one thing after doing a lot of reading lately, I never realized just how much very rural Americans have become less small town and have more and more disgustingly big city (so I thought to call them) vices.

 

[Yemelyan]

Very good post. I totally understand not releasing exact cause of death. But why do they need to hide info from the perpetrator about basic things like footprint, shoe size, left/right handedness, etc.? Maybe your post helps explain that a little, but I'm not sure.
.

Snipped to highlight your question.

I'm not LE but here's what I think. These are all just things LE might know about a given crime, not Delphi in particular:

1. Release the fact that shoe prints were found and what type of shoe. Benefit: maybe someone who knows him can affirm he owns shoes like this. Downside: maybe he gets rid of his shoes when he didn't think to do it before. Now he knows LE will be asking about this in an an interview.

2. Release the fact that touch DNA was left behind. Benefit: Maybe the public feels more confident the case will be solved? Downside: now perp and defense attorney have time to come up with a plausible reason why it was there.

3. Release the fact that the perp did some kind of postmortem signature behavior, like posing or removing items (trophies) from the crime scene. Benefit: public knows we are dealing with a real sicko. Maybe tip the oddest person you know? Downside: zero element of surprise in an interrogation. "If we get a warrant for your house right now, are we going to find....?" No chance to observe a suspect's true reaction to this question.

I already posted about this a few days ago so I won't re-hash it in detail, but you can have all the forensic evidence in the world and if it doesn't link the name of a suspect, it doesn't help you "solve" the case.

I posted a quote from a LE handbook on investigation of child abduction murders and it said that the value of forensic evidence for stranger abduction/murders was allowing police to elicit confessions through the interrogation process.

So they aren't "weeding out false confessions" from people who want to insert themselves into the crime (the John Mark Karrs of the world) so much as verifying the potential suspects that they need to lean on that much harder. It helps find the people that seem to know a little more than they should, or who have taken some actions that seem based on knowledge that wasn't released.

 

[Marzipan]

Does anyone seriously think that BG may have a very high standing in the community? I don't mean like just a well known businessman and such, I mean like a very well know and powerfully connected man.

Someone who knows the law, knows county and state management, is truly very much ingrained in the Delphi and surrounding communities by birth and actions.

Someone, to borrow Sheriff Leazenby's words, that it will shock the community when their identity is revealed.

Someone, to borrow ISP Carter's sentiments, who's family will be appalled by their actions because their life and work and committing child murders are polar opposites.

I'm really interested to know if whether posters here think it's possible or probably not likely that BG is an extraordinary presence in this area of Indiana? TIA

I'm grappling with it and can't decide but it seems with the photographic and audio evidence not making a difference, it could mean there's a powerful and intimidating person involved.

I'll tell you one thing after doing a lot of reading lately, I never realized just how much very rural Americans have become less small town and have more and more disgustingly big city (so I thought to call them) vices.

I never thought so before but I’ve been seeing reasons to think that more lately. I’m grappling, as you say.
I’ve pulled together a whole scenario in my head, with powerful people, but then I read again about some known lowlife and know they aren’t out. There is one known criminal initials GK that looks frighteningly like video. And I also haven’t let go of others either.

 

[carbuff]

At this point, nothing would surprise me.

Shocked and horrified, perhaps, but not really surprised.

 

[K.jill]

Can anyone suggest the best media, tv show or podcast or you tube to catch give someone new to the case background and info?

 

[layer]

I would suggest the "Down The Hill" podcast.

 

[moonlessnight]

I expected an arrest long before now. Is it likely it's a cop and that's why no arrest when they have audio, video, a sketch, probable DNA, and tens of thousands of tips?

 

[ReadySet]

No, I don't think it is a powerful or prominent man.
I think some -not saying anyone here, but "out there,"- want to think that is the case; it is more exciting or dramatic or intriguing to think so. But I think some are going to be surprised and even disappointed, because they have built this up in their minds.

JMO

Does anyone seriously think that BG may have a very high standing in the community? I don't mean like just a well known businessman and such, I mean like a very well know and powerfully connected man.

Someone who knows the law, knows county and state management, is truly very much ingrained in the Delphi and surrounding communities by birth and actions.

Someone, to borrow Sheriff Leazenby's words, that it will shock the community when their identity is revealed.

Someone, to borrow ISP Carter's sentiments, who's family will be appalled by their actions because their life and work and committing child murders are polar opposites.

I'm really interested to know if whether posters here think it's possible or probably not likely that BG is an extraordinary presence in this area of Indiana? TIA

I'm grappling with it and can't decide but it seems with the photographic and audio evidence not making a difference, it could mean there's a powerful and intimidating person involved.

I'll tell you one thing after doing a lot of reading lately, I never realized just how much very rural Americans have become less small town and have more and more disgustingly big city (so I thought to call them) vices.

 

[cujenn81]

I would suggest the "Down The Hill" podcast.

I second this.
Scene of the Crime: Delphi is another good one.

 

[Charlot123]

Does anyone seriously think that BG may have a very high standing in the community? I don't mean like just a well known businessman and such, I mean like a very well know and powerfully connected man.

Someone who knows the law, knows county and state management, is truly very much ingrained in the Delphi and surrounding communities by birth and actions.

Someone, to borrow Sheriff Leazenby's words, that it will shock the community when their identity is revealed.

Someone, to borrow ISP Carter's sentiments, who's family will be appalled by their actions because their life and work and committing child murders are polar opposites.

I'm really interested to know if whether posters here think it's possible or probably not likely that BG is an extraordinary presence in this area of Indiana? TIA

I'm grappling with it and can't decide but it seems with the photographic and audio evidence not making a difference, it could mean there's a powerful and intimidating person involved.

I'll tell you one thing after doing a lot of reading lately, I never realized just how much very rural Americans have become less small town and have more and more disgustingly big city (so I thought to call them) vices.

If I remember, what TL said about the community being shocked was at the very beginning. ("Shocked" might be interpreted either way. An outstanding pillar of the community or a village fool). Perhaps that person is not even a POI now.

Sometimes I think it is a person of importance, weight, money and vindictiveness. Hence DC and other LE might feel the need to tread carefully.

Sometimes I think such a man would never risk approaching the girls himself, he'd delegate the job to a hired hand.

But occasionally I think this person is someone different. Respected, but not for his money or standing. Rather, for some truly important values. Like, a hard worker. Or, good with animals. Or, clean and sober. Or, a good husband and father. Or, being a good farmer.

Why would such a person need to kill? Maybe because something has been eroding him for a long time? Or true mental illness? Or protecting someone (own son)?

I think that if I found out that a rich man of high standing was a killer, I'd not be shocked. I have read too many books about the corrupting effects of money and power.

Who would shock me, though? A doctor who delivered a lot of babies, or a vet taking good care of animals. Or a person who donated his kidney. Someone really worthy of respect.

 

[pearl]

I do not think the killer is a man who wields power in and around the Delphi community. IMO, if this happens to be the case, breaking an alibi would be key in solving the crime. I think if this killer were to be a "powerful" local person, it would be harder for a successful alibi to be established. The absence from a normal routine would be more noticeable with a locally well known person especially with a daylight afternoon murder. The more visible and active a person is, the more visible would be an absence from routine at that time. LE has repeatedly said they are one tip away. My thinking that the killer is not a locally powerful person is that he would find it hard to establish a workable alibi especially after the several years of intense scrutiny. I believe the killer could just as well be a well respected local man but not necessarily a powerful one. He could just as well be a transient. As for the killer being in law enforcement, I think there would have been an arrest already. The outrage of LE to these particular murders is evident. I think the killer will surprise us because he is so "normal" as to be unnoticed for being out of his routine at the time of the murders. I also think someone knows who did this. I think if the killer was a powerful local person, several people would have to know for the alibi to be effective. I just do not see this being the case. The more people being involved in an alibi makes it harder to be successful.

 

[Justice101]

I mentioned Evansdale as it's frequently discussed here in comparison with the Delphi murders, not because it's the only other case where police withheld info.

If you Google "police withheld cause of death" you will see literally dozens of news articles about cases, many relatively unknown, where police employed this strategy. Just do a little digging and you'll see that many of them are now solved. I think that because we often hear details after crimes are adjudicated, we forget that information was initially withheld pending the active investigation. It's a common investigative strategy and to me, as in the Hannah Graham case, it doesn't seem linked to how much forensic evidence police have.

I want it solved too but there's a reason we have the saying about the wheels of justice turning slowly. Unfortunately.

Hannah Graham case you are correct. However, wasn't the body completely gone due to the months that had passed plus buzzards, etc.? So maybe cause of death could not be known. The good thing that LE did with respect to that case (and the rape in Fairfax and Morgan Harrington), was that the early sketch was DEAD-ON representation of Jesse Matthew. But even with the sketch being perfect match, he was not identified for over 2 years.. and that was only when he struck again (Hannah Graham) and he was on video walking behind her and was seen at a bar.

Maybe I tend to give LE too much credit, but it seems to me that in general, they know a lot more than we do.. and they release only things that they think will help them. Releasing shoe size for example, would get you thousands of useless tips. They obviously don't have anything unique that would narrow down significantly who this guy is.

 

[helenann2k]

I know this isn’t how proper police procedure works, but I would love it if the case was given to an experienced cold case detective. One who wasn’t there from the beginning, and could re-set the investigation as if it were new. My opinion is that with the best intentions, LE were following the wrong path and need a fresh set of eyes. Because I cannot believe that with a video clip and audio clip, BG hasn’t been recognized already. I think the tip is in their possession but might have been dismissed somehow. And again MOO, I think the sketches are useless because they are so different. Toss the sketches, focus on the video.

 

[Yemelyan]

Hannah Graham case you are correct. However, wasn't the body completely gone due to the months that had passed plus buzzards, etc.? So maybe cause of death could not be known. The good thing that LE did with respect to that case (and the rape in Fairfax and Morgan Harrington), was that the early sketch was DEAD-ON representation of Jesse Matthew. But even with the sketch being perfect match, he was not identified for over 2 years.. and that was only when he struck again (Hannah Graham) and he was on video walking behind her and was seen at a bar.

Maybe I tend to give LE too much credit, but it seems to me that in general, they know a lot more than we do.. and they release only things that they think will help them. Releasing shoe size for example, would get you thousands of useless tips. They obviously don't have anything unique that would finger this guy.

They are definitely not going to release anything that will generate thousands of useless tips, I agree, especially if it's the type of case that's already generated many thousands of useless ones already.

Hannah Graham's remains were skeletonized and due to how they found her clothes etc at the scene they knew it was homicidal violence, they weren't able to say with 100% certainty the etiology, you are correct. But what they didn't say until after they caught him was details about it (or that they were believed it to be strangulation/suffocation but were not sure). One thing they definitely knew was that her nasal bones had been fractured right around the moment of her death. But there was no reason to let potential suspects know what LE was or wasn't able to determine, it gives them way too much power when being interviewed. Instead LE just said they weren't releasing info at all pending the active investigation. Because JM was arrested and pled, lots of details are available now.

 

[Justice101]

They are definitely not going to release anything that will generate thousands of useless tips, I agree, especially if it's the type of case that's already generated many thousands of useless ones already.

Hannah Graham's remains were skeletonized and due to how they found her clothes etc at the scene they knew it was homicidal violence, they weren't able to say with 100% certainty the etiology, you are correct. But what they didn't say until after they caught him was details about it (or that they were believed it to be strangulation/suffocation but were not sure). There is no reason to let potential suspects know LE wasn't able to determine that, it gives them way too much power when being interviewed. Instead LE just said they weren't releasing info at all pending the active investigation. Because JM was arrested and pled, lots of details are available now.

Was his plea agreement dependent on Matthew telling all the details?

 

[Yemelyan]

Was his plea agreement dependent on Matthew telling all the details?

No idea, I haven't read much about the case from his perspective. Like, I don't recall reading anything such as "JM then said he left her pants inside out." Those details that came out later weren't presented as being from his narrative, but rather what LE found. IMO

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I do not think the killer is a man who wields power in and around the Delphi community. IMO, if this happens to be the case, breaking an alibi would be key in solving the crime. I think if this killer were to be a "powerful" local person, it would be harder for a successful alibi to be established. The absence from a normal routine would be more noticeable with a locally well known person especially with a daylight afternoon murder. The more visible and active a person is, the more visible would be an absence from routine at that time. LE has repeatedly said they are one tip away. My thinking that the killer is not a locally powerful person is that he would find it hard to establish a workable alibi especially after the several years of intense scrutiny. I believe the killer could just as well be a well respected local man but not necessarily a powerful one. He could just as well be a transient. As for the killer being in law enforcement, I think there would have been an arrest already. The outrage of LE to these particular murders is evident. I think the killer will surprise us because he is so "normal" as to be unnoticed for being out of his routine at the time of the murders. I also think someone knows who did this. I think if the killer was a powerful local person, several people would have to know for the alibi to be effective. I just do not see this being the case. The more people being involved in an alibi makes it harder to be successful.

Merriam-Webster
English Language Learners Definition of powerful
: having the ability to control or influence people or things
: having a strong effect on someone or something
: having or producing a lot of physical strength or force

Alibi: What, if it had been credible in 2017, being just "on the road" from point A appt. to point B appt. for max. 1,5 hours, with a little power nap on the roadside somewhere? Done. (IF the murder happened as fast as LE said.)
MOO

 

[pearl]

Merriam-Webster
English Language Learners Definition of powerful
: having the ability to control or influence people or things
: having a strong effect on someone or something
: having or producing a lot of physical strength or force

Alibi: What, if it had been credible in 2017, being just "on the road" from point A appt. to point B appt. for max. 1,5 hours, with a little power nap on the roadside somewhere? Done. (IF the murder happened as fast as LE said.)
MOO[/
If he had to travel 15 hours total to commit this crime, he would not be considered local. IMO, a 15 hour time frame for a powerful person to commit this crime would be a notable absence to account for. More than one other person would know a powerful person has been out of touch for that long.