Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #124

[Yemelyan]

Do you think it's possible that there was any organizational planning involved with BG or it was just a happenstance that the girl's were there and were chosen?

I think he fantasized extensively about what he might do to a victim on an isolated trail, so in that sense his actions were "planned." But I think it was happenstance that he chose Abby and Libby that day...his choice had more to do with their exact location on the bridge than anything else about them (including their age) IMO.

I think BG is the type of person who gets a lot of satisfaction out of fantasizing about and re-living his crimes. He probably started out with the idea of cornering a female victim and probably scouted many different trails or other isolated spots, thinking about how he would do it. I think he likely had the idea that he would do this, how he would do it, for many months and February 13th just so happened to be the day it came together.

 

[Charlot123]

bbm
Do you think, he has female siblings or is, who he is, because he has not?

good question. Theoretically, having a mother whom he respected, a father who loved and respected the mother, and a female sibling who is loved and protected in the family, should work against such behaviors. But blended families, where he grew up without female siblings and suddenly his life became swamped by grownup, loud, teenage girls, should rather contribute into him being who he is. Then expect some odd behaviors, stealing blended siblings’ underwear and other creepiness. But it is not carved in stone.

 

[Charlot123]

Double post

 

[Charlot123]

I haven't made it here for a while, but I had a thought I wanted to share. In the beginning, I was fairly sure there were two people involved, but after LE said there was only one, I believed that for a couple years. Now I'm starting to lean back toward there being a second one. My reasons are: LE believes the guy is local because he appears to have known the area. They believe the man on the bridge and in the sketch/es was at least partially responsible for the deaths. In spite of being presumed local, no locals seem to recognize him. My reasoning is that all of the statements are more-or-less true, but the reason no locals seem to know him is that the man caught on camera isn't a local, but he was with someone else who is/was. If that were the case, the local person may not look anything at all like the man in the video or in the sketch, and the man on the bridge could have stayed with that person for a day or more and then left discretely when it felt safe. I have no idea if there is a second person involved, but it does seem likely to me. MOO

I think there were two involved.

About recognizing him - why do we assume that they knew everyone in Delphi?

we live on a long street. For almost 20 years. In the beginning, people would organize a get-together once a year, so we knew some of them. Now? Hardly anyone. People moved, and the new ones are more closed. So if I met someone from my street, I might not recognize the person. The street that takes off from mine at an angle? Never in life! My husband knows more people, he walks on the street, but still, too few.
Now consider that I am not a young girl, and take in different age groups. Young girls would pay attention to cute kids and their parents, maybe, and that is all.
I can imagine BG living there and A&L, paying no attention to him, ever. Imagine RL (whom i don’t suspect, but view as the victim). Old man, drinking. Would Abby or Libby ever pay attention to him? Nada.
There was a person I knew from other place, and she once invited me and husband to her house, and I found out that she lived in a new one behind us! I knew her for two years, but never saw in the neighborhood.

ETA: several changes. We don't live in a metropolis, to me it looks like a perfect "village", but our city is rather densely populated. A farmer's area has more land around, I assume.

In any small townlet, I'd expect people to know each other as "parents" from kids' schools. But Libby and Abby were middle-schoolers. They probably knew cute boys from HS, but what if boys were not cute or not athletic? They might have never noticed them, or their parents. Church is the place where people go to in their neighborhood. But they attended youth groups. Unless they were very religious, they might have never known adults from Church. And if the person lives somewhere in Logansport, close but not precisely Delphi, and is an average-looking adult, there is a high chance that they would not know him.

 

[Confusion]

I think there were two involved.

About recognizing him - why do we assume that they knew everyone in Delphi?

we live on a long street. For almost 20 years. In the beginning, people would organize a get-together once a year, so we knew some of them. Now? Hardly anyone. People moved, and the new ones are more closed. So if I met someone from my street, I might not recognize the person. The street that takes off from mine at an angle? Never in life! My husband knows more people, he walks on the street, but still, too few.
Now consider that I am not a young girl, and take in different age groups. Young girls would pay attention to cute kids and their parents, maybe, and that is all.
I can imagine BG living there and A&L, paying no attention to him, ever. Imagine RL (whom i don’t suspect, but view as the victim). Old man, drinking. Would Abby or Libby ever pay attention to him? Nada.
There was a person I knew from other place, and she once invited me and husband to her house, and I found out that she lived in a new one behind us! I knew her for two years, but never saw in the neighborhood.

BBM
Since it was my post that you quoted, I'll give my opinion on that. I don't assume that they would have known him or even thought he looked familiar if he was local, but I would expect at least one person to recognize him. Most people have neighbors, mail carriers, friends, co-workers, etc. who know them, and probably have people working in grocery stores, gas stations, bars, etc. who would recognize them by face, even if not by name. The sketches aren't necessarily that close to his real looks, and the video isn't real clear. If I saw a sketch that looked a lot like my neighbor and was told he was wanted for a local crime, I'd most likely call. If I saw that picture and was told he was wanted for a crime even in one of the neighboring states, I might think it reminds me of him or I might not even see the similarity. I hope that makes sense.

 

[Charlot123]

I think he fantasized extensively about what he might do to a victim on an isolated trail, so in that sense his actions were "planned." But I think it was happenstance that he chose Abby and Libby that day...his choice had more to do with their exact location on the bridge than anything else about them (including their age) IMO.

I think BG is the type of person who gets a lot of satisfaction out of fantasizing about and re-living his crimes. He probably started out with the idea of cornering a female victim and probably scouted many different trails or other isolated spots, thinking about how he would do it. I think he likely had the idea that he would do this, how he would do it, for many months and February 13th just so happened to be the day it came together.

Yes. Fantasized. Imaginary world. Expect one parent who has a social communication disorder and is distant. The BG, however, is not JP, he is social enough, or has a social job that allows him to blend in. But "imaginary world" comes from one of the parents. This might be a clue.

 

[Charlot123]

DBM.

What do you think he collects, weapons, spy gadgets, or *advertiser censored*? Or all three? The thing on his wrist looks either like a "spy watch" I saw on Amazon, or a stylish med bracelet.

 

[Charlot123]

BBM
Since it was my post that you quoted, I'll give my opinion on that. I don't assume that they would have known him or even thought he looked familiar if he was local, but I would expect at least one person to recognize him. Most people have neighbors, mail carriers, friends, co-workers, etc. who know them, and probably have people working in grocery stores, gas stations, bars, etc. who would recognize them by face, even if not by name. The sketches aren't necessarily that close to his real looks, and the video isn't real clear. If I saw a sketch that looked a lot like my neighbor and was told he was wanted for a local crime, I'd most likely call. If I saw that picture and was told he was wanted for a crime even in one of the neighboring states, I might think it reminds me of him or I might not even see the similarity. I hope that makes sense.

Yes... And sometimes I think, there might be an abandoned, abused, woman, living in a different place, whose abuser took off and disappeared. She is too happy to have him out of her life, hopes that he is dead, and never watches crime because of PTSD. She'd recognize him in a second, but for this, he has been shown on national TV, on several channels, Fox, CNN, several others.

Why don't TV channels do it for such cases pro bono?

 

[Yemelyan]

In any small townlet, I'd expect people to know each other as "parents" from kids' schools. But Libby and Abby were middle-schoolers. They probably knew cute boys from HS, but what if boys were not cute or not athletic? They might have never noticed them, or their parents. Church is the place where people go to in their neighborhood. But they attended youth groups. Unless they were very religious, they might have never known adults from Church. And if the person lives somewhere in Logansport, close but not precisely Delphi, and is an average-looking adult, there is a high chance that they would not know him.

SBM. I bolded the part you wrote about youth groups. I grew up in a rural, church-going area similar to Delphi. I can tell you that going to youth groups does NOT mean that they did not also attend regular church with adults. In fact, if they only attended youth groups and never the congregational part of church, that would be highly atypical.

A typical Protestant/evangelical church in an area like this has the following format: Sunday morning - Congregational service attended by all ages, Bible School (when both children and adults break out in smaller groups by age to study the Bible - in some churches this occurs before the main service and in some after but it's not typical to only attend one or the other). Sunday evening - prayer service. Another weeknight - youth groups and adult Bible studies meet. In my experience it would be VERY rare to attend a youth group and nothing else. They would have been very familiar with adult males in their congregation IMO.

 

[Ravenmoon]

I have been at this (the case of Abby and Libby) for more than 3 years.
I have seen the very few solid facts available to the public.
I have seen rumors that are absurd.
I have read questionable accusations.
I have seen a handful that are curios, but interesting.
I have developed my own theories that , in my mind, lead to someone in particular.
I cannot post any rumors here, it would be against the rules .
What I do want to share is this-
I believe the girls were posed and this is one of BG's signatures.
I also believe that they were posed to mimic literary characters , characters from Shakespeare to be more specific.
I cannot support my theory here, but it ties to my POI.
Anyone else have anything to contribute?
Anyone else possibly have another theory regarding signatures?
AMOO MOO JMO

 

[I wonder]

My gut feeling has always been that BG is someone who used to live in Delphi, or more likely had extended family there, grandparents for example, that he visited regularly. I feel he had a hard time whilst in Delphi. He may have been bullied, or had his heart broken or just have felt very alone wuth no friends. It's a cliche, but I think he spent a lot of time at the trails as a child, possibly sad and angry watching other people with family and friends and possibly, over time fantasising of hurting people he saw.

His family then moved a long way away and visiting was reduced or even stopped. Perhaps his parents divorced and it was his dad with the relatives in Delphi, so he lost touch with them. Then, perhaps he got a job which involved travelling. One day he realised he wasn't a million miles away and had some free time, so thought he'd pop back. He drove to his grandparents house, parked outside and saw people he recognised. The same thing happened in Delphi, he recognised people, but no-one recognised him. They all looked happy and he was a nobody.

It brought back all the hurt. He went home, his life isn't how he wants it to be and the hurt turns into anger, then rage. I think his life today has followed a similar path. I think he's likely to be divorced and estranged from his family including his daughters, who are possibly a similar age to Libby and Abby.

He remembered hiding in the bushes on the trail, by the river, thinking about holding people under the water, hurting and/or killing them in some other way. Then work takes him near Delphi again. He starts planning. He wants to hurt someone, undoubtedly female, he's I don't think he's bothered who. He knows what he'll do and when. He gets to the trail and prepares the spot where he'll hurt someone. He watches the bridge from there.

He sees Libby and Abby and waits for them to cross back over the bridge, but they are taking too long. He feels a combination of overwhelming excitement mixed with a terror of being caught. So he follows them across the bridge, I doubt he wanted to do this as he's very visible up there. He didn't want to cross the creek, but needs to coming from this route. If he'd planned on crossing the creek, I think he'd have worn different trousers. Those jeans would show if he'd got wet.

As for the staging, the signature, I think he killed out of hate and rage. I think the girls were probably posed to look humiliated. I am completely guessing, but maybe with clothes missing and their intimate areas exposed. I think I've read that it is rumoured that one had her face covered with leaves. If the face was covered and her body exposed, that enhances the humiliation. Complete strangers would find them and see them in this way. Photos would be taken of them etc. The humiliation would be huge. Perhaps it was staged with what he sees as silly girl things. Possibly flowers or pretty stones, all to emphasise how weak they are/were. If it is true that one had more injuries than the other, that could have been for a specific reason, she looked like someone who has humiliated and rejected him, or she could have tried to fight or run. He was really angry with her.

I'm only guessing obviously, but this is what I think may have happened. JMOO MOO AMOO

 

[rosesfromangels]

Here is a list of all the truck stops close to/surrounding Delphi. It appears the closest is to the Monon High Bridge is at the Circle K in Lafayette, a 23 minute drive according to Google maps. We can only pray that LE checked the logs at these truck stops and questioned the drivers? Truck Stops With Parking in Delphi, IN | 24 Hour Find Truck Service ®

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[katsrfun]

I think there were two involved.

About recognizing him - why do we assume that they knew everyone in Delphi?

we live on a long street. For almost 20 years. In the beginning, people would organize a get-together once a year, so we knew some of them. Now? Hardly anyone. People moved, and the new ones are more closed. So if I met someone from my street, I might not recognize the person. The street that takes off from mine at an angle? Never in life! My husband knows more people, he walks on the street, but still, too few.
Now consider that I am not a young girl, and take in different age groups. Young girls would pay attention to cute kids and their parents, maybe, and that is all.
I can imagine BG living there and A&L, paying no attention to him, ever. Imagine RL (whom i don’t suspect, but view as the victim). Old man, drinking. Would Abby or Libby ever pay attention to him? Nada.
There was a person I knew from other place, and she once invited me and husband to her house, and I found out that she lived in a new one behind us! I knew her for two years, but never saw in the neighborhood.

ETA: several changes. We don't live in a metropolis, to me it looks like a perfect "village", but our city is rather densely populated. A farmer's area has more land around, I assume.

In any small townlet, I'd expect people to know each other as "parents" from kids' schools. But Libby and Abby were middle-schoolers. They probably knew cute boys from HS, but what if boys were not cute or not athletic? They might have never noticed them, or their parents. Church is the place where people go to in their neighborhood. But they attended youth groups. Unless they were very religious, they might have never known adults from Church. And if the person lives somewhere in Logansport, close but not precisely Delphi, and is an average-looking adult, there is a high chance that they would not know him.

Interesting to note, we live in a very small town, which has grown some over the years. My husband is a real estate broker and I work in the medical field. When I was younger I frequented the bars. No matter where I go, I almost NEVER see anyone I know or recognize. I often mention this to friends, who work in various fields, and they have the same reaction. How can we never see or recognize anyone we know. My husband and I have both lived here for over 30 years. I am sure in that small town, not everyone recognizes a person. He could be hiding in plain site and no one realizes it is him. Sort of OT, but my opinion of why he has not been recognized. Thanks, Katt

 

[Charlot123]

I have been at this (the case of Abby and Libby) for more than 3 years.
I have seen the very few solid facts available to the public.
I have seen rumors that are absurd.
I have read questionable accusations.
I have seen a handful that are curios, but interesting.
I have developed my own theories that , in my mind, lead to someone in particular.
I cannot post any rumors here, it would be against the rules .
What I do want to share is this-
I believe the girls were posed and this is one of BG's signatures.
I also believe that they were posed to mimic literary characters , characters from Shakespeare to be more specific.
I cannot support my theory here, but it ties to my POI.
Anyone else have anything to contribute?
Anyone else possibly have another theory regarding signatures?
AMOO MOO JMO

I understand it is your opinion, product of your imagination, not a rumor.

Like a while ago, I was thinking they were posed to resemble a Medieval icon from a German museum. Two different saints.

But for my idea, they needed some clothes that would at least bear resemblance to the persons, so I soon dropped it.

About Shakespeare...do you, in your imagination, think they would be instantly recognizable? Or would they look like Shakespearean heroes only to the murderer?

In other words, is it a message to the world, or only to satisfy own need?

I saw a movie about something similar. In that case, it was both.

If the “signatures” are specific poses, then, no one has seen something similar, but he might have killed before, with different “signatures”, and the next one will be different, too. So searching for specific signatures would be useless. They are not simply signatures (that are from the realm of OCD-autistic traits), they are, rather, messages, from another mental cluster.

And do you think he was looking for them, or for some “material”, and they fit?

 

[Charlot123]

SBM. I bolded the part you wrote about youth groups. I grew up in a rural, church-going area similar to Delphi. I can tell you that going to youth groups does NOT mean that they did not also attend regular church with adults. In fact, if they only attended youth groups and never the congregational part of church, that would be highly atypical.

A typical Protestant/evangelical church in an area like this has the following format: Sunday morning - Congregational service attended by all ages, Bible School (when both children and adults break out in smaller groups by age to study the Bible - in some churches this occurs before the main service and in some after but it's not typical to only attend one or the other). Sunday evening - prayer service. Another weeknight - youth groups and adult Bible studies meet. In my experience it would be VERY rare to attend a youth group and nothing else. They would have been very familiar with adult males in their congregation IMO.

Thanks for explaining how it is in a Protestant church. I took my kid to a church for a while. I barely remember people from the church, but then, it was a huge congregation.

But the girls attended different churches. And although I think the guy feels some odd connection to church (I think he needed to drive them through water to “baptize”, “purify” before death, and something in the signatures must have resembled church themes...the same St. Valentine, who was never the patron of love, but a martyr, or some other martyr - St. Maurice? - a soldier whose day is February 13th), maybe he went to another church? He probably had a car.

Or, he went to the same as one of them, and chose the victim, but the girl paid no attention to him. It would be more likely the case of the larger congregation. Also, keep in mind that they probably attended more regularly as tweens, not as teenagers.

But imagine this, he goes to church, and observes a child with braids or golden locks, then a tween. He is a pedophile but suppresses it, and tells himself that he admires their purity. And in a year, they grow, and stop being interested in church, and start dating some nasty boys. In his eyes, they fall from the pedestal, and he is so angry...

 

[Marzipan]

I understand it is your opinion, product of your imagination, not a rumor.

Like a while ago, I was thinking they were posed to resemble a Medieval icon from a German museum. Two different saints.

But for my idea, they needed some clothes that would at least bear resemblance to the persons, so I soon dropped it.

About Shakespeare...do you, in your imagination, think they would be instantly recognizable? Or would they look like Shakespearean heroes only to the murderer?

In other words, is it a message to the world, or only to satisfy own need?

I saw a movie about something similar. In that case, it was both.

If the “signatures” are specific poses, then, no one has seen something similar, but he might have killed before, with different “signatures”, and the next one will be different, too. So searching for specific signatures would be useless. They are not simply signatures (that are from the realm of OCD-autistic traits), they are, rather, messages, from another mental cluster.

And do you think he was looking for them, or for some “material”, and they fit?

@Charlot123 im so grateful you came up with some good questions on the post you were responding too—and without asking for anything that wouldn’t be possible to answer here. I am very curious about this idea. Shakespeare? Literary figures? I wanted to ask for more but didn’t know where to start. It is so hard to know what is imagination and what is rooted in something about a person’s POI. Your questions probe without judging or needing to know the why of it. Thank you.

 

[sunshineray]

Interesting you bring up these good points.

Seems to me a lot of "wannabe" types perpetrate certain types of crimes. People who either wish they had a military or LE background, or both, but they either can't or couldn't get into one or both, or were forced out for psych reasons.

Once in a while LE or military or ex-military folks (think IK) perpetrate what I'd call more organized "fantasy" crimes like what happened with A&L.

At the end of the day, I think these people are sociopaths and severe sadists.

JMO

That's what I was thinking about, a group in that area that are very sadistic and controlling and doing illegal things when it comes to women. I wonder if BG isn't part of a "community" of like-minded and organized deviants. Whomever he is, I don't think it's just luck that he's evaded arrest.

 

[sunshineray]

BBM
Since it was my post that you quoted, I'll give my opinion on that. I don't assume that they would have known him or even thought he looked familiar if he was local, but I would expect at least one person to recognize him. Most people have neighbors, mail carriers, friends, co-workers, etc. who know them, and probably have people working in grocery stores, gas stations, bars, etc. who would recognize them by face, even if not by name. The sketches aren't necessarily that close to his real looks, and the video isn't real clear. If I saw a sketch that looked a lot like my neighbor and was told he was wanted for a local crime, I'd most likely call. If I saw that picture and was told he was wanted for a crime even in one of the neighboring states, I might think it reminds me of him or I might not even see the similarity. I hope that makes sense.

Funny how Sheriff Leazenby said at one point he knows that voice but can't place who it belongs to...quite the statement, IMO

 

[Charlot123]

So I went to spy center and saw voice activated recorder. I don’t see the watch, so I am continuing to Google, but I wonder if he did take a film, and the device had no GPS? I am posting it here because I think he did have earphones

Mini Wrist Band Voice Activated Recorder

Here

video recording glasses

Zetronix Online store

Or something like this...

https://www.amazon.com/Mliyam-1080P...d=1593920986&sprefix=spy+cameras+watch&sr=8-3

He had to have a camera on him, maybe masked as a watch?

 

[JnRyan]

I just finished both seasons of "Mindhunter". I read the book by John Douglas years ago and forgotten about several things in the book so the show was a refresher of sorts. One of things that pops up in the show and the book and that is some serial killers like Ed Kemper revisit the crime scene and if the crime scene is too hot because of publicity or LE then they fall back on souvenirs taken from the victims. I wonder if this killer has gone back to the trail or the cemetery. Or the town even. I considered sometime back that the 'New Direction' might have been due to his returning to the area around the trails and recognized by someone who was also there the day of the murders. We've never heard if this killer kept a souvenir or souvenirs from the victims. Part of his signature or MO if so?