Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #126

[Betty P]

$250,000 is certainly life changing money and a strong incentive unless by tipping what you know you go to jail or are in fear of losing your life itself.

Also, people who are in denial about it. Have seen it happen before in communities where people think no one in their town would ever do anything like that.

 

[Jax49]

Former boss says Nations had changing temper

This may have already been posted as most of you are way ahead of me on this case but I just wanted to link it here and see what everyone else thought of this possibility. I've looked at the pictures and I don't really see the resemblance but I could be wrong.

LE didn't clear him, but they did say they were no longer care about him. IMO, that's as close as they'll come to clearing anyone until an arrest is made.

Daniel Nations no longer a major concern in Delphi murders

"As you all know, we went out to Colorado and we spent a little bit of time with him [DN], and he's not a person we care a whole lot about at this time," Superintendent Douglas Carter

Daniel Nations, once considered person of interest in Delphi murders, jailed in Johnson County | Fox 59

ISP has since said they’re no longer actively investigating Nations as a person of interest in the case.

 

[JnRyan]

I also hope scene contamination doesn't have a part in this. I wonder if the the coldness overnight had a play in DNA degradation. It was the middle of February. I know around here, east coast, at that time of year the frost more times than not sets in for at least a 6-8 hour period overnight. Does that help to destroy DNA?

This info from a DNA forensic consultant provides some info on that - longer than I would have thought, although I can't see where the studies cited duplicated what we have here. The part about touch DNA is interesting as they may not always be DNA transferred as it depends on material touched, how long and how recently the person washed their hands among other factors. I thought the possibility of secondary or transfer touch DNA to be interesting. When asked if they had the killer's DNA, ISP 1st Sgt Holeman has stated that almost every crime scene will yield DNA and that touch DNA is a powerful forensic item. But that reply doesn't address the question of whether or not LE has the KILLER'S DNA. I'll bet LE has collected DNA and it is either less than a usable profile or they have unidentified DNA which they can't say one way or another that it belongs to the killer.
Touch DNA. What is it? Where is it? How much can be found? And, how can it impact my case? | Ryan Forensic

 

[Charlot123]

I should probably just Google this myself, but does anyone have the list of stipulations, the "fine print" that determines how the monetary reward will/may be awarded?

I can't recall an instance where someone who simply called in the "right tip" was handed a check in a timely manner.

The reward contingencies may read like an end user license agreement. Imo

I remember situation with one of the cases when some people, probably lured by big reward, came forward with some (IMO, important) information. They ended up being castigated by the community for not reporting on it sooner, thereby preventing the tragedy.

Now, I don’t know the details of the real situation, and why, indeed they didn’t act on it (was it fear? Unwillingness to meddle in a criminal act? Professional ethics?), but bottom line is, they ended up not only without money, but with bad reputation.

While I think IRL they didn’t report because of some professional loyalty, or maybe the person’s relatives were from LE themselves, or the accused came from the family of influence. Anyhow, since their information was important, I think this part was handled badly.

BTW, “fear” would be my first answer as to why no tip in Delphi case. So maybe LE is not convincing enough when they talk about protection.

 

[stattlich1]

Ives said: 'Even though at the crime scene there was a lot of physical evidence of one sort of another which would lead logically to one person or another, it never led to one particular person.

I still think the killer arranged the CS to appear as though someone else committed the crime, and that sent LE down a wrong path, then 2 years later LE changes course as they realized they were duped. MOO

Former prosecutor in unsolved Delphi murders of two teens says they had signature elements | Daily Mail Online

 

[sunshineray]

This info from a DNA forensic consultant provides some info on that - longer than I would have thought, although I can't see where the studies cited duplicated what we have here. The part about touch DNA is interesting as they may not always be DNA transferred as it depends on material touched, how long and how recently the person washed their hands among other factors. I thought the possibility of secondary or transfer touch DNA to be interesting. When asked if they had the killer's DNA, ISP 1st Sgt Holeman has stated that almost every crime scene will yield DNA and that touch DNA is a powerful forensic item. But that reply doesn't address the question of whether or not LE has the KILLER'S DNA. I'll bet LE has collected DNA and it is either less than a usable profile or they have unidentified DNA which they can't say one way or another that it belongs to the killer.
Touch DNA. What is it? Where is it? How much can be found? And, how can it impact my case? | Ryan Forensic

Fascinating read, thanks for posting it! It seems heat and humidity are the worst culprits in degrading DNA left behind at an outdoor scene, barring of course rain.

The whole touch DNA seems to be a real crap shoot. Some people are better cell (natual and automatic skin exfoliation type of thing) shedders than others but even they can have days where they don't shed much. If a person's not a sweater, that can effect the amount of DNA left on touched objects or people. Fabrics are not the greatest for collecting touch DNA, especially if they are smooth or if the person touching has clean hands.

Lots of information in that piece and it was eye opening to just how random good DNA can be at a crime scene, especially if there's not sexual assault.

 

[MistyWaters]

Okay, that's what I was looking for: the "fine print" about who MAY receive some of the money. In other words, there's a chance that a valuable tip about the case may NOT result in payment for the tipster.

My interpretation is "we'll be the judge of that." Is that a valid interpretation? Not sure who has the final say. A committee?

Not the strongest call to action for tipsters I've seen, imo. Depending on their motivation, of course.

Sometimes, imo, there's also a general timeline for dispersing the funds, like within "x" number of days following the arrestee's conviction for the murder, etc.

Regardless, I often think that the real value of an announcement of a big possible payday is in its ability to generate publicity. It could also work and as a morale boost for the families of the victims and a way for the law enforcement community to show support. imo

Yes I agree the interpretation is “we’ll be the judge of that”.

But should each person behind each of these three hypothetical and different scenarios receive the full reward?

1 “I saw on TV an arrest of a guy for SA and maybe he’s the Delphi killer.”....and the suspect was already on police radar.

2. “I just found a box hidden in the attic by X with bloody clothes, a gun and a lot of news print about the Delphi murders. I thought you should know.” This possible suspect was entirely unknown to police without the tip.

3. Scenario - LE focus on a possible suspect who’s a close friend of the killer although he had absolutely no involvement in the murders but early on his friend bragged to him about it. But more than 3 years later when LE question him, he suddenly panics as he fears he may get wrongfully accused so he spills the goods on his friend to save his own derrière. (This can be a LE tactic, coming down hard on the weakest link within a group.)

 

[Tiger Stripes]

This has been one of my theories. It's a wild one, I know, but hey, nobody's solved this crime yet have they?

If the girls had knowledge of some crime of a rich and powerful man who stood to lose all?

I don't know about you folks, but it's my belief that politicians, government officials, clergy, big shots from any walk of life, are surely capable of such atrocities. And to add, I can imagine even folks of lesser means wanting to save themselves in the face of certain ruin.

MOO

Can't "like" this post enough, @stattlich1! Have believed your hypothesis to be the exact nature of this case since the spring of 2017... especially the last paragraph of your post.

Continuing to pray for justice for Abby and Libby. May God continue to comfort their families, and may there be forward movement in this case soon, whether that is accomplished via bringing back the FBI's expertise, or perhaps by means of a more out-of-the-box solution... (will leave that to Websleuthers' individual creative imaginations).

 

[Blueberry2720]

Former boss says Nations had changing temper

This may have already been posted as most of you are way ahead of me on this case but I just wanted to link it here and see what everyone else thought of this possibility. I've looked at the pictures and I don't really see the resemblance but I could be wrong.

Is this pic from the article supposedly Nations? If so, what is with his lower right leg - it looks crooked - something is odd.

 

[Blueberry2720]

Someone mentioned this to me and it made me wonder too . .What if the money put up for the reward was done so by someone directly connected to the murder in an attempt to hide/cover their connection/knowledge?

Just food for thought.

 

[Charlot123]

I’m not an attorney but I highly doubt the Delphi investigators have legal authority to grant immunity to tipsters. What would be the unique significance in this case as opposed to every other unsolved murder case in the USA where somebody with outstanding warrants might also be reluctant to deal with police?

Does anyone want police to pick and choose when they turn the other cheek to perpetrators of prior crime in order to solve more recent higher prioritized crimes? Probably not, especially the victims impacted by any of those prior crimes. JMO

But imagine this, there were two people involved, or one is involved, and the other one knows, and is the weak link? He has no prior criminal history and is somewhat naive.. He feels shame, guilt, whatnot. But the other one, who is smarter, and more criminally experienced, calmly explains that LE has nothing on them, that it is a totally cold case, "unless you open your stinking mouth", and then he explains what the other one might get. And the other one is silent, but he can still talk. (I sometimes wonder that "the change" DC spoke about is simple depression, not change in looks or situation.)

In this case, this weak link might need to be reassured, because he has been brainwashed by the true killer, and was explained that if he sings, he'd be a fool?

 

[stattlich1]

But imagine this, there were two people involved, or one is involved, and the other one knows, and is the weak link? He has no prior criminal history and is somewhat naive.. He feels shame, guilt, whatnot. But the other one, who is smarter, and more criminally experienced, calmly explains that LE has nothing on them, that it is a totally cold case, "unless you open your stinking mouth", and then he explains what the other one might get. And the other one is silent, but he can still talk. (I sometimes wonder that "the change" DC spoke about is simple depression, not change in looks or situation.)

In this case, this weak link might need to be reassured, because he has been brainwashed by the true killer, and was explained that if he sings, he'd be a fool?

Indeed, I've been down this thought process before

Father/Son? Friends? Hi IQ/Low IQ? Husband/Wife?

But why? Why is always my question here. Why would a killer bring a second party in to the mix?

Then there's the change in the killer that was referenced earlier. Depression? A move away from the region? Change of appearance?

 

[Yemelyan]

Indeed, I've been down this thought process before

Father/Son? Friends? Hi IQ/Low IQ? Husband/Wife?

But why? Why is always my question here. Why would a killer bring a second party in to the mix?

Then there's the change in the killer that was referenced earlier. Depression? A move away from the region? Change of appearance?

Why would a killer bring a second party into the mix? This has been studied for serial killers, anyway, though Delphi may not be this. Here's an article which explains it in lay terms: Partners in Crime

The short answer is that people who do this are typically in a dominance/subservience relationship where each person is deriving some critical need from the relationship that validates them. However, despite the dominant partner/submissive partner dynamic, they are often people who would have been individually dangerous on their own anyway.

Some experts say up to 20% of serial killings are perpetrated by "teams," usually duos.

As to your second question, psychological profilers would say that offenders who murder often have a serious trigger in their lives, a crisis if you will, that precipitated their decision to move forward and act on their fantasy. This is often things like financial problems, problems with family members, other legal problems. Then after the crime, many perpetrators will change in significant ways...increased drug or alcohol use is common, mental problems, the sudden decision to change location/move away, etc.

 

[MistyWaters]

But imagine this, there were two people involved, or one is involved, and the other one knows, and is the weak link? He has no prior criminal history and is somewhat naive.. He feels shame, guilt, whatnot. But the other one, who is smarter, and more criminally experienced, calmly explains that LE has nothing on them, that it is a totally cold case, "unless you open your stinking mouth", and then he explains what the other one might get. And the other one is silent, but he can still talk. (I sometimes wonder that "the change" DC spoke about is simple depression, not change in looks or situation.)

In this case, this weak link might need to be reassured, because he has been brainwashed by the true killer, and was explained that if he sings, he'd be a fool?

If LE believe they know who’s guilty, an appeal for a tip to solve the case by holding a public PC is the most ineffective means of crime solving. If an arrest has not taken place in the first few months following a murder, I’d bet every criminal knows LE holding public PCs is the absolute last resort of desperation regardless of how dramatic is the tone of the speaker.

Instead if LE had a lead they’d interview any POIs individually including anyone associated and that’s where any reasoning and/or reassurances would take place. But at the end of the day individual culpability is for the Court to decide.

This reminds me of a notorious case in Canada where one is given a reduced sentence in exchange for testimony against the other, but later it was revealed they were all hoodwinked.
Karla Homolka - Wikipedia

 

[MistyWaters]

Someone mentioned this to me and it made me wonder too . .What if the money put up for the reward was done so by someone directly connected to the murder in an attempt to hide/cover their connection/knowledge?

Just food for thought.

If I were an investigator I’d sure take a good look at that donor list of the reward money. Something similar happened just recently in another case, there’s also a thread here on WS. It’s also a good example of a perp who looks quite a bit older than his actual age.

https://www.toronto.com/news-story/...y-woman-also-donated-to-her-********-account/

Canada -Woman, 50, found critically injured & assaulted, Whitby,Ont, 29 July 2020

 

[Deleted member 102539]

If I were an investigator I’d sure take a good look at that donor list of the reward money. Something similar happened just recently in another case, there’s also a thread here on WS. It’s also a good example of a perp who looks quite a bit older than his actual age.

https://www.toronto.com/news-story/...y-woman-also-donated-to-her-********-account/

Canada -Woman, 50, found critically injured & assaulted, Whitby,Ont, 29 July 2020

I just got a big error warning with the link; maybe it's because of EU, but the usual warnings are more harmless.
Copied the information from the original thread:
Anthony D**ron-Fr*ncis donated $300 (with the following mention)
"Its so horrible what happened! I pray she makes a full recovery!"

Such a hypocrite! IMO

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Yesterday I viewed a movie again. A woman got abducted and stuffed into a van. She struggled desparately and lost one of her shoes, before the van drove away. I remembered, it was not the first time, an abduction by car was shown with a struggeling victim, losing one shoe. Abby/Libby came to mind immediately ......

 

[minazoe]

Please don't sleuth Daniel N. He is not a suspect, at least the last I heard, not of interest...I think he's a no no..but we did talk about him and his leg in great length in the past.

now I will shut my mouth! ;o). mOO

 

[Justice101]

Still following....

 

[Kittybunny]

Former boss says Nations had changing temper

This may have already been posted as most of you are way ahead of me on this case but I just wanted to link it here and see what everyone else thought of this possibility. I've looked at the pictures and I don't really see the resemblance but I could be wrong.

He was discussed in great length in the threads around the time of this article. I know that LE has said they're no longer interested in him, but he remains at the top of my personal list for a number of reasons, including familiarity with the area, comfortable in the outdoors, resemblance to sketch, propensity for violence. Without something specific to tie him to the crime, I guess they can't really pursue anything further. But yeah, right there with you.