Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #126

[Charlot123]

What, if a smart killer studied crime for years, reading, talking to experts, consuming videos, only for his goal to become the undisputed no. 1 in serial killing, by doing all these typical things differently.

Yes, but then he still wants to be known, in some way, right? He can’t just keep a score, he wants to be appreciated. How would he boast about his crimes? What do you think?

It's probably due to the fact that prior to DNA LE didn't have to build as strong of a case to push through convictions for crimes people may or may not have committed. Also, there was probably less oversight into methods of interrogation and how often confessions were coerced and then used to convict people.

IMO it remains common for an experienced interrogator to be able to coerce a false confession from the right type of suspect which is why in the Delphi case LE keep mentioning they are trying to avoid letting too many details about the crime trickle out.

I don’t know... their strategy obviously doesn’t work. Maybe they don’t let out the details to avoid accusations in unprofessionalism. I don’t know any longer. I fail to understand their thinking. Whatever the original idea was, it backfired. I also doubt anyone would confide in these cases. I think that if anyone steps out with a confession, he needs to be protected from the locals, all parents of other Delphi kids, in a big way. Can you imagine how the inhabitants of that tiny place feel about the guy?

 

[Charlot123]

bbm
This, IMO.

but if chess, or online strategy games, there are scores. Do profilers keep it in mind, that he could be an online chess player, or a strategy game player, with rather a high score?

While I find long videos of GH boring, he clearly has the brain that could analyze younger people. It would be interesting to ask him, what kind of strategy games could hone up these skills, for example.

There are two studies that I would like to see performed.

The first one is the prevalence of undiagnosed ADHD among these parents who forget kids in cars.

The other one is the link between scores on strategy games and being successful in crimes.

These people don’t live in vacuum. They might even be psychotic, but (remembering Columbine), being a talented gamer disciplines their psychosis, so to say. It is also about planning.

And this is something I never read about. Except for raw IQ scores, I never saw any paper showing the planning skills of the SKs. I only know Ted Bundy liked pool. ((

This guy may be living in a trailer, but online he is somehow known, and not necessarily in a bad way.

 

[minazoe]

I agree, I think he may have some nerd aspects..two way radio, police scanners, eavesdropping devices, camera surveillance, video games, ( could this open area down the hill be similar to a game landscape?) ..paranoia, recording apparatus, cameras with various lenses for stalking, guns, kill kits etc... maybe just some of these but I agree...doesn't mean he is necessarily good at the games though...he may not be, but still can be obsessed with certain games. I think his big obsession is probably *advertiser censored* and he would spend a great deal of time looking at *advertiser censored* and planning his murders. mOO

 

[Charlot123]

.

I feel he was way too organized to be hearing and acting on voices..also so nonchalant..I think most killings like A &L are sexual in nature. Interesting theory though. mOO

I agree. If one acts on voices, he’d be apt to suddenly attack his GF, his accountant, his doctor, his lawyer, anyone sitting in front of him. Not to plan who in Delphi will be at home and who won’t.

Just because a person have mental problems, it doesn't mean that they can't also be organized and analytical when needed, Nobel Laureate and matematician John Nash is a good example. John Forbes Nash Jr. - Wikipedia.
Haven't you seen the film "A Beautiful Mind" about his life, then I can recommend it.

Only Nash was also autistic, and I don’t know whether he had separate combination of both autism and some form of schizoaffective disorder, or his hallucinations were the function of his brain development. His science was probably autism-, not psychosis-based. MOO. I loved the film.

 

[Charlot123]

I agree, I think he may have some nerd aspects..two way radio, police scanners, eavesdropping devices, camera surveillance, video games, ( could this open area down the hill be similar to a game landscape?) ..paranoia, recording apparatus, cameras with various lenses for stalking, guns, kill kits etc... maybe just some of these but I agree...doesn't mean he is necessarily good at the games though...he may not be, but still can be obsessed with certain games. I think his big obsession is probably *advertiser censored* and he would spend a great deal of time looking at *advertiser censored* and planning his murders. mOO

*advertiser censored* is ubiquitous, but some kinds of *advertiser censored*, I think. Ask Zimbardo, his assistant Nikita once spent 100+ hours watching *advertiser censored*. (“The demise of guys” is the name of the book). They might understand something about that part of BG’s person.

Delphi killer is good in all games that need assessment of the opponent’s skills. He definitely evaluated local LE correctly. MOO.

In a way, he is playing against the whole Inet community, us, and winning. Think of this.

 

[minazoe]

he doesn't have to do much, as likely he was disguised. he just needs a low profile. it seems likely he will re-offend and maybe he already has... somewhere else.. maybe he is in planning stages..or afraid he will be caught. maybe he went to Alaska...police have a lot of evidence..he cant afford any DNA to surface.
FBI needs to come back in... mOO

 

[Ozoner]

This is a very interesting article, but this particular stat is fascinating. You would think these numbers would be reversed with all the advances in forensics and scientific testing and of course DNA. I wonder why the big drop. Is it because the nature of the crimes themselves has changed?
Is it due to changes in police investigative techniques?

My first guess would be that cops back then weren't too scrupulous about reading people their Miranda rights.

You also have many, many murders now that are gang or drug related, which are difficult to solve.

You also have the "CSI effect" with juries, meaning that a jury won't convict unless there is overwhelming forensic evidence. The "reasonable doubt" standard doesn't really apply any longer. Prosecutors have to convict someone beyond any shadow of a doubt, even in the mind of a tinfoil-hat-wearing conspiracy theorist juror. For that reason, prosecutors are much more reluctant to authorize charges against anybody, so many killers walk free even when the police know they're guilty.

Casey Anthony is a good example. Thirty years ago, she would have been convicted handily (and probably would have gotten the death penalty). Instead (thanks in no small part to moron extraordinaire Jennifer Ford, who couldn't even comprehend the difference between cause of death and manner of death), Anthony walked.

 

[sunshineray]

I am more of the opinion that he was leaving by the time that the father came looking for them. I can't image anyone lingering after having done this.

This Gray Hughes video has a call in guy that GH says he trusts because the things he's told before were true. GH gets him talking at
1:59:30 about the only DNA being found was touch DNA on one of the girl's sweatshirt shoulder. They continue talking and at
2:04:20 discuss the killer still being there after DG was there looking for the girls. So it seems, for whatever reason, the Delphi killer did hang around well after DG began looking for the girls. Quite chilling to consider.

 

[sunshineray]

If waiting for other murders is LE’s best hope of solving this case, the outlook is looking rather dim.

Modern Life Has Made It Easier for Serial Killers to Thrive
“The helter-skelter 1970s and ’80s are remembered as the serial killer’s heyday—think of Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, and David “Son of Sam” Berkowitz. Since then, data suggest, the number of serial killers—defined by the National Institute of Justice as those who commit two or more separate murders, often with a psychological motive and a sadistic sexual component—has plunged, falling 85 percent in three decades; the FBI now says that serial killers account for fewer than 1 percent of killings....”

It also says...
"In 1965, the U.S. homicide clearance rate was 91 percent. By 2017, it had dropped to 61.6 percent, one of the lowest rates in the Western world. In other words, about 40 percent of the time, murderers get away with murder.

Some experts believe that serial killers are responsible for a significant number of these unsolved murders. Thomas Hargrove, the founder of the Murder Accountability Project, a nonprofit that compiles data on homicide, has examined how many unsolved murders are linked by DNA evidence. He believes that at least 2 percent of murders are committed by serial offenders—translating to about 2,100 unidentified serial killers. Michael Arntfield, a retired police detective and the author of 12 books on serial murder, agrees that the FBI’s projections are off (he blames patchy data, among other things) but thinks the number of active serial killers is more like 3,000 or 4,000."

Some in law enforcement think many unsolved murders and disappearances could be attributed to a serial killers still at large and unknown.

 

[sunshineray]

If what was said in that GH video I just posted about LE being shocked at how little viable DNA was recovered from the Delphi murders scene is true, what do you all think are some logical reasons why?

Is it just a person who is so meticulous in his planning, so knowledgeable in what not to do, that he covered all bases on not leaving behind blood, semen, hair, skin, spit, sweat?

Did he maybe use some kinda of cleaner/contaminate to "clean" the scene before leaving?

With two victims you'd think some sort of struggle, no matter how slight, would have occurred somewhere within the crime timeline. Struggle would transfer traces of killer and victims.

It makes me ponder different lifestyles and occupations that would afford a person such knowledge and the methodical calmness it would take to become untraceable after abduction and double murder. Such a person would have to be able to compartmentalize tasks and have no discomfort or anguish over what they're doing at the time they're doing it. I'd call that cold-blooded.

Makes me wonder about that slaughterhouse and all it's employees. I would think only a certain kind of personality would be able to do that job and just a fraction of those not have any qualms and be totally removed from their job's actions.

Maybe a person indoctrinated in their early life to hunting who took it a step further than normal because they could unnaturally dissociate from the killing and butchering of game.

I hate to think of these two but maybe a veteran who thrived in conflict, even was praised for it, never got over the feelings killing gave them. Or someone in LE who was trained but then didn't fit in because of the lack of empathy and sympathy needed to truly protect and serve.

Just a few thoughts. Anyone have others they care to share?

 

[rosesfromangels]

Interesting post Sunshineray, and just sets up several lines of thinking for me that don't lead to any conclusive speculations, just more questions.

I have no idea if the information you are referencing is accurate, but for the purpose of this post, we'll assume the GH source is correct. The only thought that comes to mind is that this Perp had himself so well covered/sealed that he didn't leave much DNA as stated in your above post. That's really quite remarkable, if true.

To *not* leave DNA, he would have had to have worn some sort of "clean room" suit that you see in labs or highly dust sensitive assembly lines. He might have even gone so far as to shave his body. As to the hair....well that doesn't add up, unless he had it under a clean room cap. (They look like shower caps). With what we believe must have been a violent struggle, you would think a hair or two (or several) would have transferred, and skin cells; particularly under the girls nails.

The lack of DNA also suggests there was not a sexual assault, (which doesn't align with my Perp profile), or that he wore a condom, or removed the evidence with bleach, etc.

If the GH source is accurate, (unconfirmed), the lack of DNA (except the touch DNA) adds a whole new dimension to this. I sincerely hope the crime scene was handled properly and wasn't contaminated.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[somequestions]

Very little to no movement the last three years. In my opinion unless fresh eyes and investigators look at this investigation, we may continue to see little to no movement. By fresh eyes I mean outside investigators not affiliated w local

I think what it really depends on is whether or not new investigators would take a different approach to the case. Currently, it sounds like the families are o.k. with the approach currently being taken by investigators and believe in the 2nd sketch poster to help find the killer.

It is hard to say that something is wrong if you do not know that it is wrong. How long should people pursue the 2nd sketch? I think the 2nd sketch is wrong and that a lot of time is going to pass by until investigators start to pursue other ways to find the killer.

As long as most are ok with the current direction of the case, nothing is probably going to change. And the reason is because no one can say with any certainty that the current direction is wrong. It could just be a matter of when and not if. But I don't think so.

 

[JnRyan]

It's just heartbreaking that there seems to have been no progress in this case for quite a while. In catching up and reading here on a few different aspects of this, I really believe there are two factors that greatly impacted the solvability of this case.

1. An outdoor crime scene. The complexities of gathering evidence in this type of environment must be so high. Well yes, the FBI was there and of course has developed techniques for collecting evidence in this type of scene for years, it doesn't negate the fact that they still must have a hard time with this. And then of course you have woods and trails with years of debris and natural items that may or may not have been touched by a killer - a tree, for example, can you even get fingerprints from it? - that you have to sort through, what is related to the crime and what isn't? Discarded garbage, a cigarette butt, a footprint, when was it from? Unlike a crime scene in a house for example, there are obvious places to look and get evidence from, obviously the killer got in and out somehow, a footprint in blood, etc. And of course if the killer doesn't have DNA or fingerprints in a database it's pretty much an impossible task to use evidence gathered other than ruling out immediate family.

2. Revisiting the whole RL arrest, it reminded me that at some point one of the officers stated in a newspaper article that they were going to have to investigate anything that they found when they were pursuing tips and leads in this case. I remember cringing at the time reading that because I thought, what incentive is there for anyone to come forward if they have any sort of spotty past or current drug use? And then the fact that RL actually went to jail for quite a bit of time, I know he had alcohol trouble and did violate the law, but I think that would definitely keep some people from speaking up. I have seen in other cases where LE has pretty much said "we don't care about anything else that we might find, like marijuana or anything, we really just want to solve this case." If they are still waiting for that "one tip" they may be waiting forever.

It may still be worth putting out a statement in their next official update to the effect that they don't really care about the persons record or issues but at this point, it's probably too little too late.

And don't even get me started on that whole sketch fiasco.

#2 has always bothered me. It almost gives the impression, 'We want your tip, but be aware that will arrest you too. Especially, if it doesn't result in an arrest.' Of course, that may just be me. And yet I have nothing to fear from an arrest and still get this uneasy feeling. What if our 'one tip' is the person with a marijuana crop hidden or a meth lab in that shed behind their house - would they deem it too much of a personal risk to show up on LE's radar?

 

[rosesfromangels]

#2 has always bothered me. It almost gives the impression, 'We want your tip, but be aware that will arrest you too. Especially, if it doesn't result in an arrest.' Of course, that may just be me. And yet I have nothing to fear from an arrest and still get this uneasy feeling. What if our 'one tip' is the person with a marijuana crop hidden or a meth lab in that shed behind their house - would they deem it too much of a personal risk to show up on LE's radar?

I think this is very true. If someone has a lesser crime to hide, it's unlikely they will risk "the skin off their nose" to help solve this crime. Unless, of course, their conscience gets the better of them.
Let us hope so. I often think that family members of the Perp know, or highly suspect something but don't know what to do. I really think it would be beneficial for LE to think of additional ways people can come forward to share what they know. There has to be stronger incentives, and I think creativity is in order.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[stattlich1]

If the guy on the bridge is the killer, MOO, I find it highly unlikely he had the time to don gear such as gloves, masks, hair net, and who knows what else. He's wearing typical street clothes.

I could imagine a scenario where the girls went to the CS without question, for some unknown reason not being alarmed by the situation, then being incapacitated in some way, giving the killer time to prepare, but how likely is that?

I could imagine BG is not the actual killer, but herded the girls to the CS where the killer, prepared, was waiting.

Anyway, early on I was, and kind of still am, in the CS contamination camp.

The timeline is tight. The murders supposedly swift.

Did he return after dark? Did he even leave that afternoon? Heck, for all I know, he could have remained at the CS all night, it appears nobody was near.

What killer is smart enough to leave no trace? One with experience? LE? FBI? Attorney/Judge? Well read and knowledgeable killer? Military? Someone who studies crime, criminology professor? I like this last one, someone who has studied criminology, or is in the field, or teaches it, or has a degree in it, or is a lover of it.

And those 1965 killings that resulted in such a high arrest ratio, does the data show they arrested the right person in each of those cases, or that they arrested someone? Data can be skewed in many ways.

 

[JnRyan]

In the beginning with the video and audio I just knew LE would have this killer coward in short order. The fact that they didn’t – and still haven’t going on 4 years – with the video, audio and the vast volume of tips has led me to believe this guy didn’t live locally at the time of the killings. But where they are killed also leads me to believe this guy had very good knowledge of the trail. I recently heard an interview from Anna Williams, Abigail’s mother, where she stated there are locals who have never been to the trail and couldn’t find it without asking directions. She even stated that there are locals who didn’t even know of the trail’s existence.

So my question if I believe he did not live locally, how did he get knowledge of the trail? One possibility is that he lived in the area sometime from late elementary school to early high school, but moved away from the area. In that scenario he could have changed enough that no one locally recognizes him in his 20’s or 30’s. Of course, if one or both parents are alive I would think he would likely be recognized in the video. There is also the possibility that he was a foster child living with a family at the time and they may have not seen him in years and wouldn’t recognize him now. Along those lines an article in the Carroll County Comet addresses the need for foster parents and there are approximately 5600 children in IN in 2015 needing a foster home.

Foster families are always needed | Carroll County Comet

The nearest group home I could find is The Villages in Lafayette IN and they’ve been around since the 1960’s. History - The Villages

My next possibility is that he never lived there, BUT had a grandparent, aunt or uncle that lived there and he visited them in the summers and on holidays. And maybe such a relative is no longer alive or has left the area. In the case of an elderly person maybe they are living with a younger family member or in a long term care facility and are not capable of even remembering much about the area let alone making a connection between the murders and their younger relative.

Of course, there exists the possibility that this guy doesn’t live locally and never has lived or even had a connection to the area. He is comfortable in wooded environments and in environments far more extensive and complex than this. I’m no Daniel Boone and among those I spent hunting the woods of north LA, AR. East TX. VA and NC there are many who I could constantly learn from. Yet I seriously doubt that I could get lost or even turned around in that very small patch of woods surrounding the trail especially with the sun still in the sky. For some such person, this is no difficult task to become familiar with the area. This could be a hunter, a former member of the Army or Marines, a participant in paint ball competitions or even a former participant in orienteering. One or two prior trips to this trail and possibly other trails would be all this type of person would need.

For the record, I still tend toward the theory that this cowardly killer had prior knowledge of the area and also had a connection of some sort to the area. I just can’t ignore other possibilities.

 

[sunshineray]

Interesting post Sunshineray, and just sets up several lines of thinking for me that don't lead to any conclusive speculations, just more questions.

I have no idea if the information you are referencing is accurate, but for the purpose of this post, we'll assume the GH source is correct. The only thought that comes to mind is that this Perp had himself so well covered/sealed that he didn't leave much DNA as stated in your above post. That's really quite remarkable, if true.

To *not* leave DNA, he would have had to have worn some sort of "clean room" suit that you see in labs or highly dust sensitive assembly lines. He might have even gone so far as to shave his body. As to the hair....well that doesn't add up, unless he had it under a clean room cap. (They look like shower caps). With what we believe must have been a violent struggle, you would think a hair or two (or several) would have transferred, and skin cells; particularly under the girls nails.

The lack of DNA also suggests there was not a sexual assault, (which doesn't align with my Perp profile), or that he wore a condom, or removed the evidence with bleach, etc.

If the GH source is accurate, (unconfirmed), the lack of DNA (except the touch DNA) adds a whole new dimension to this. I sincerely hope the crime scene was handled properly and wasn't contaminated.

Amateur opinion and speculation

I also hope scene contamination doesn't have a part in this. I wonder if the the coldness overnight had a play in DNA degradation. It was the middle of February. I know around here, east coast, at that time of year the frost more times than not sets in for at least a 6-8 hour period overnight. Does that help to destroy DNA?

 

[JnRyan]

I think this is very true. If someone has a lesser crime to hide, it's unlikely they will risk "the skin off their nose" to help solve this crime. Unless, of course, their conscience gets the better of them.
Let us hope so. I often think that family members of the Perp know, or highly suspect something but don't know what to do. I really think it would be beneficial for LE to think of additional ways people can come forward to share what they know. There has to be stronger incentives, and I think creativity is in order.

Amateur opinion and speculation

"Stronger incentives". I like that and maybe it is time for LE to assure the public as a whole - and not just the law abiding citizen - that our one tipster out there can do this. If this killer runs in the same circles of those who violate the law, they may be the ones LE really needs to hear from. Unfortunately, self-preservation trumps conscience and LE needs to overcome that issue.

 

[sunshineray]

#2 has always bothered me. It almost gives the impression, 'We want your tip, but be aware that will arrest you too. Especially, if it doesn't result in an arrest.' Of course, that may just be me. And yet I have nothing to fear from an arrest and still get this uneasy feeling. What if our 'one tip' is the person with a marijuana crop hidden or a meth lab in that shed behind their house - would they deem it too much of a personal risk to show up on LE's radar?

Also if that person's crime negates them claiming the quarter of a million reward for information leading to the arrest and conviction of the killer(s), I can see someone in the know but with secrets of their own not even considering tipping to LE.

 

[sunshineray]

"Stronger incentives". I like that and maybe it is time for LE to assure the public as a whole - and not just the law abiding citizen - that our one tipster out there can do this. If this killer runs in the same circles of those who violate the law, they may be the ones LE really needs to hear from. Unfortunately, self-preservation trumps conscience and LE needs to overcome that issue.

$250,000 is certainly life changing money and a strong incentive unless by tipping what you know you go to jail or are in fear of losing your life itself.